Did Waltz really have a rich mine?

[Hal Croves]

I have my suspicions, yes. Call it the North American Unified Treasure Theory if you like. The Arizona rumors are part of it.

Conspiracy Theory: a theory that explains an event as being the result of a plot by a covert group or organization; a belief that a particular unexplained event was caused by such a group. Yes, the tales are constantly corrupted as they "evolve", as you say. That's the beauty of it all. The 46,000 posts in the TNet Lost Dutchman threads ought to illustrate that.

Interesting. I guess I see the corruption as natural, a human shortcoming that develops early in life.
Something that should be expected.
But, also challenged.



Let me ask a hypothetical question. If something of great value were found hidden within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area, would the locations already federally "protected" status, in your opinion, suggest conspiracy?

Or, would you lean towards coincidence?


"This Wilderness was designated in 1939, and was expanded to its present size in 1984. It now contains approximately 160,200 acres."
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/specialplaces/?cid=fsbdev3_018739

 

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[sdcfia]

Interesting. I guess I see the corruption as natural, a human shortcoming that develops early in life.
Something that should be expected.
But, also challenged.



Let me ask a hypothetical question. If something of great value were found hidden within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area, would the locations already federally "protected" status, in your opinion, suggest conspiracy?

Or, would you lean towards coincidence?

I don't believe in coincidences.

 

[Hal Croves]

I don't believe in coincidences.

Just thinking ahead here, if a discovery in the SWA is ever officially confirmed and the news made public.
Mo Udall was certainly inspired to protect the SWA and whatever might be found there.

View attachment 1358952

THE SUPERSTITION MOUNTAINS
What Future Use Will Best Serve Arizona?
A Special Report
By Rep. Morris K. Udall

"I want to emphasize that the idea of restudying the Superstitions originated with me; that NPS has taken no position nor made any recommendations; its regional office only responded to my inquiry."



From the report:

(c) MINING
The Forest Service reports that "while a complete list of all mining claims...is available only from the records of the three counties concerned, it is estimated there are approximately 25 prospect claims within the area. However, only a few of them are being seriously worked.



Mo's brother Steward Lee, Secretary of the Interior (1961 - 1969) would also need to be considered.

​

View attachment 1358962

"Udall helped write several of the most far-reaching pieces of legislation, including the Wilderness Act of 1964, which protects millions of acres from logging, mining and other development."
​

See more at: Stewart Udall Obituary | Stewart Udall Funeral | Legacy.com

​

"He helped secure passage of the Wilderness Act of 1964 (which now protects about 400 million acres of land in 44 states)."

Stewart L. Udall, 90, interior secretary was guardian of America's wild places

​

"On this and other fronts Mr. Udall pushed with a formidable combination of political acumen and political allies — including his younger brother Morris K. Udall, who succeeded him in Congress and in 1976 ran for president in a campaign that his older brother managed. Many of the significant environmental and land-protection statutes that became law in the 1970s and ’80s, including the Endangered Species Act, bore their stamp and influence."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/nyregion/21udall.html?_r=0
​

View attachment 1359027


Books By Stewart L. Udall

​

Quiet Crisis, 1963.
1976, Agenda For Tomorrow, 1968.
America's Natural Treasures: National Nature Monuments and Seashores, 1987.
To The Inland Empire: Coronado and Our Spanish Legacy, 1987.
The Quiet Crisis and The Next Generation (revised edition of the Quiet Crisis), 1988.
The Myths of August, A Personal Exploration of Our Tragic Cold War Affair With The Atom, 1994.
Majestic Journey: Coronado's Inland Empire, (reissue of The Inland Empire), 1995.

"This book by Stewart Udall is the first I have found of the real history of the Spanish role in the settlement of the United States. He uncovers the prejudice that created the Black Legend about the Catholic Spaniards and shows their real contribution to the life, culture and settlement of the Southwest. Udall has no bias as a Catholic or Spaniard--he was neither-- in fact he was a Mormon with nothing to gain by telling the story as it was. He doesn't gloss over Spanish misdeeds, nor does he exaggerate them as most history books have done for the last 100 years."

ImeldaG - Amazon
​

 

[sdcfia]

Just thinking ahead here, if a discovery in the SWA is ever officially confirmed and the news made public.

I don't personally expect such an announcement. The Waltz-Peralta-Tumlinson et al rumors focus largely in the Superstitions, and many seekers feel that the government created the SWA to keep nosy treasure hunters at bay. The Mormon Udall involvement also raises more suspicions among certain people. Generally, I'd say that most folks are convinced there is lots of gold somewhere in the SWA. Maybe, but I'm personally doubtful. I don't for a minute believe any of the Waltz LDM rumors, by the way.

I don't have a pony in the race per se - except as part of a larger picture - but some map work I did a couple years ago seems to indicate to me that a treasure hunter might consider two places in the area for cache locations: 1) underneath the east half of Theodore Roosevelt Lake (obviously out of reach) ; and 2) a lat/long square bordered by 33° and 34° north latitudes and 110° and 111° west longitudes (which are 33° and 34° west of Washington DC) - maybe in the NW quadrant, possibly in the Aztec Peak watershed, more or less.

 

[Hal Croves]

I don't personally expect such an announcement. The Waltz-Peralta-Tumlinson et al rumors focus largely in the Superstitions, and many seekers feel that the government created the SWA to keep nosy treasure hunters at bay. The Mormon Udall involvement also raises more suspicions among certain people. Generally, I'd say that most folks are convinced there is lots of gold somewhere in the SWA. Maybe, but I'm personally doubtful. I don't for a minute believe any of the Waltz LDM rumors, by the way.

I don't have a pony in the race per se - except as part of a larger picture - but some map work I did a couple years ago seems to indicate to me that a treasure hunter might consider two places in the area for cache locations: 1) underneath the east half of Theodore Roosevelt Lake (obviously out of reach) ; and 2) a lat/long square bordered by 33° and 34° north latitudes and 110° and 111° west longitudes (which are 33° and 34° west of Washington DC) - maybe in the NW quadrant, possibly in the Aztec Peak watershed, more or less.

Yes, it is unlikely but, it could happen.

Regardless of what one feels, that was the result.

There is a Mormon-Udall-Arizona connection that traces back to the Mormon Batalion (1847). I think that Mo had a falling out with the Mormon Church over Blacks not being allowed into the Priesthood. Steward was also committed to civil rights.

 

[EarnieP]

...
"There is a Mormon-Udall-Arizona connection that traces back to the Mormon Batalion (1847)." ...

That 1847 date is an interesting one.

 

[Hal Croves]

That 1847 date is an interesting one.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Leepoliticalfamily.gif#/media/File:Leepoliticalfamily.gif

http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/davidkudall/mormon/main.html

http://pioneers.rstebbing.com/U.html

 

[cactusjumper]

Here's my thoughts on this. Waltzr, not Waltz, rode the stage and got off by Silly Mountain to go rock hunting and prospecting. His habits changes and he would work just long enough to get a grub stake and then go out again for 3-4 months. Then he caught the stage to Tucson, turned in $18,000 in gold to Wells Fargo and caught the East bound stage. He told the Stage driver that because he had let him ride on top of the stage (free), that he had found flakes and tracked it back to an outcrop that he then mined. "It's about a 1/4 mile from my camp which is by a spring with trees I planted in a 1/2 circle. About that time was the earthquake from Fort Apache to the end of the Supes. I believe that it killed the spring. Now after someone turns in $18,000 in gold, that would start a gold rush. People from Tucson would go up to Phoenix and ask for the "Dutchman with a mine". The only one there is Waltz. Did Waltz turn in any large amounts of gold? Never heard of any, Waltzr, yes. Was Waltz still sinking the low grade shaft that he buried Wiesner in ? I don't think so. There is a gold mine to the NW of Hyroglific Canyon. I believe that is the Waltzr mine. Just as the Adams Diggings were found and worked after Adams was there. So where did Waltz's gold come from? The stuff that he higraded? I don't know but it surely was from "the richest mine in the world". If he told a lie enough, even he would start to believe it. Maybe that is why his "clues" never really lead to his "mine". Go ahead and change my mind, but use facts, not stories by people selling books.
Facts: Waltz never bought a home, he did a homestead. It was made of Adobe, ie cheap.
They buried him in a paupers grave as he had no money in the bank.
Please make me change my mind about this as it would be just about criminal that so many people stent so much time and their lives looking for it.

AU,

I believe the only record (documented) of Waltz, associated with gold or a gold mine, was his claim and sale of mine(s) in the Prescott area. There are no records of his selling gold or gold ore to Wells Fargo......anywhere.

Good luck,


Joe Ribaudo

 

[EarnieP]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Leepoliticalfamily.gif#/media/File:Leepoliticalfamily.gif

Arizona Pioneer Mormon Main Page

U ? Pioneers and Prominent Men of Utah-Mormon Pioneers

----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- ---------------------- ------------------------------------

Thanks Hal, good links.
I was thinking more about the date (if that's what it is) of 1847 carved into the Peralta Stone.

Other interesting 1847 events;

Brigham Young arrives with his merry band at Salt Lake.
Samuel Colt sold his first 'equalizing' revolver.
The hungry Donner party was stuck up in the Sierra Nevada admiring their juicy neighbors.
'Arizona' area was lost to it's legal Mexican owners as they were pushed out in 1846-47 during the Mexican-American War.
(mostly Wiki info)

 

[Hal Croves]

AU,

I believe the only record (documented) of Waltz, associated with gold or a gold mine, was his claim and sale of mine(s) in the Prescott area. There are no records of his selling gold or gold ore to Wells Fargo......anywhere.

Good luck,


Joe Ribaudo

Exactly.
I think the only way to confirm that story is by finding a legitimate receipt in Germany.
Unlikely but, not impossible.

 

[Hal Croves]

----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- ---------------------- ------------------------------------

Thanks Hal, good links.
I was thinking more about the date (if that's what it is) of 1847 carved into the Peralta Stone.

Other interesting 1847 events;

Brigham Young arrives with his merry band at Salt Lake.
Samuel Colt sold his first 'equalizing' revolver.
The hungry Donner party was stuck up in the Sierra Nevada admiring their juicy neighbors.
'Arizona' area was lost to it's legal Mexican owners as they were pushed out in 1846-47 during the Mexican-American War.
(mostly Wiki info)

Yes, 1847.

Mo's grandmother, Ida (Hunt) Udell, was Captain Jefferson Hunt's granddaughter.
Jefferson Hunt made his way to in Tucson in 1847 (Actually Dec, 46), at one point, leading the Mormon Brigade.

Capt Jefferson Hunt (1803 - 1879) - Find A Grave Memorial


"By the time the battalion reached Tucson, it was reduced in numbers and sorely in need of provisions. Despite the fact that this was Mexican territory, the opposing military forces avoided hostilities, agreeing instead to a peaceful barter. Buttons, clothing, and other items were traded for Mexican grain and salt. The United States Flag, the first to fly over Tucson, was posted briefly on December 16, 1846. The following day, the battalion continued its march northward toward the Gila River."

Exchange at the Presidio Historical Marker



​

"The sculpture includes three men: Capt. Jefferson Hunt, the battalion's senior captain; Pvt. Christopher Layton, who would return to Arizona years later as a colonizer and community leader; and presidio merchant Teodoro Ramirez, who was active in trading food to battalion members in exchange for surplus clothing.

TUCSON STATUE TO HONOR MORMON BATTALION | Deseret News

​

"Teodoro Ramirez owed his fluency in the native languages to his father, Juan José Ramirez, who served many years as translator for Franciscan Father Pedro de Arriquibar, who served at Tubac, San Ignacio and Bacoachi before being assigned as military chaplain at Tucson about 1796 and serving here until his death in 1820."

"When the Mormon Battalion, having marched 1,300 miles from Iowa to take part in the Mexican-American War, arrived here weary and hungry under command of Lt. Col. Philip St. George Cooke on Dec. 16, 1846, Ramirez arranged to barter food in exchange for surplus clothing the Mormons had."

"Those records, filed by his son Manuel in the Pima County Book of Deeds in 1874, showed him to be the most extensive Tucson landholder of his time."

Teodoro Ramirez was linguist, trader, landowner - Tucson Citizen Morgue, Part 2 (1993-2009)
​

 

[EarnieP]

So Capt. Hunt must have been at the infamous 'Battle of the Bulls' before the Mormon Battalion reached Tuscon.

Battle of the Bulls
The Mormon Battalion in the Sonoran Desert of Arizona

"The only "battle" they (Mormon Battalion) fought was near the San Pedro River in present-day Arizona against a sizable number of wild cattle. The battalion reached this area in November 1846, and their presence aroused curiosity among these animals. After the bulls of these herds caused destruction to some of the mules and wagons and resulted in two men being wounded, the men loaded their guns and attacked the charging bulls, killing 10–15 of the wild cattle, which was sarcastically termed the "Battle of the Bulls". (Wiki)

 

[audigger53]

So Capt. Hunt must have been at the infamous 'Battle of the Bulls' before the Mormon Battalion reached Tuscon.

Battle of the Bulls
The Mormon Battalion in the Sonoran Desert of Arizona

"The only "battle" they (Mormon Battalion) fought was near the San Pedro River in present-day Arizona against a sizable number of wild cattle. The battalion reached this area in November 1846, and their presence aroused curiosity among these animals. After the bulls of these herds caused destruction to some of the mules and wagons and resulted in two men being wounded, the men loaded their guns and attacked the charging bulls, killing 10–15 of the wild cattle, which was sarcastically termed the "Battle of the Bulls". (Wiki)

Well at least they got to eat fresh meat.

 

[Loke]

Here's my thoughts on this. Waltzr, not Waltz, rode the stage and got off by Silly Mountain to go rock hunting and prospecting. His habits changes and he would work just long enough to get a grub stake and then go out again for 3-4 months. Then he caught the stage to Tucson, turned in $18,000 in gold to Wells Fargo and caught the East bound stage. He told the Stage driver that because he had let him ride on top of the stage (free), that he had found flakes and tracked it back to an outcrop that he then mined. "It's about a 1/4 mile from my camp which is by a spring with trees I planted in a 1/2 circle. About that time was the earthquake from Fort Apache to the end of the Supes. I believe that it killed the spring. Now after someone turns in $18,000 in gold, that would start a gold rush. People from Tucson would go up to Phoenix and ask for the "Dutchman with a mine". The only one there is Waltz. Did Waltz turn in any large amounts of gold? Never heard of any, Waltzr, yes. Was Waltz still sinking the low grade shaft that he buried Wiesner in ? I don't think so. There is a gold mine to the NW of Hyroglific Canyon. I believe that is the Waltzr mine. Just as the Adams Diggings were found and worked after Adams was there. So where did Waltz's gold come from? The stuff that he higraded? I don't know but it surely was from "the richest mine in the world". If he told a lie enough, even he would start to believe it. Maybe that is why his "clues" never really lead to his "mine". Go ahead and change my mind, but use facts, not stories by people selling books.
Facts: Waltz never bought a home, he did a homestead. It was made of Adobe, ie cheap.
They buried him in a paupers grave as he had no money in the bank.
Please make me change my mind about this as it would be just about criminal that so many people stent so much time and their lives looking for it.

Me thinks you have got Waltz mixed up with Wagoner ...
Also - Waltzr is not a name you will find anywhere - Waltz is, and its German. Waltzer is also acceptable.

 

[Hal Croves]

So Capt. Hunt must have been at the infamous 'Battle of the Bulls' before the Mormon Battalion reached Tuscon.

Battle of the Bulls
The Mormon Battalion in the Sonoran Desert of Arizona

"The only "battle" they (Mormon Battalion) fought was near the San Pedro River in present-day Arizona against a sizable number of wild cattle. The battalion reached this area in November 1846, and their presence aroused curiosity among these animals. After the bulls of these herds caused destruction to some of the mules and wagons and resulted in two men being wounded, the men loaded their guns and attacked the charging bulls, killing 10–15 of the wild cattle, which was sarcastically termed the "Battle of the Bulls". (Wiki)

EarnieP,

Yes, I think it remains the longest U.S. Infantry march on record.
Their numbers went from 500 to 350 by the time the battalion reach Tucson.
They were tired, hungry, and one would think, easy pickings.
But with three days advance notice, Mexican soldiers simply walked away.
Hunt and his men passed thru peacefully, traded with locals, then were gone without incident.
Mexican soldiers returned almost immediately.

There was no Mexican attempt to defend Tucson and no U.S. attempt to keep it.
Reads like a scene from Kelly's Heroes (1973).

 

[audigger53]

Me thinks you have got Waltz mixed up with Wagoner ...
Also - Waltzr is not a name you will find anywhere - Waltz is, and its German. Waltzer is also acceptable.

No Wagoner was different. Waltz didn't ride the stage and get off by now Apache Junction. Waggoner would walk in from Globe/Superior area and catch the stage back to Superior. There were 3 of them going in until Waltzr(er) cashed his in at Tucson and went back to Germany.

 

[Loke]

No Wagoner was different. Waltz didn't ride the stage and get off by now Apache Junction. Waggoner would walk in from Globe/Superior area and catch the stage back to Superior. There were 3 of them going in until Waltzr(er) cashed his in at Tucson and went back to Germany.

May I respectfully ask from where your information comes? As far as I know, Wagoner got off the stage near Whitlow's ranch and walked in from there - also met the stage at the same place coming out. The half-circle of trees is also from Wagoner - he told the stage-driver about them on his last trip.

 

[Oroblanco]

AU,

I believe the only record (documented) of Waltz, associated with gold or a gold mine, was his claim and sale of mine(s) in the Prescott area. There are no records of his selling gold or gold ore to Wells Fargo......anywhere.

Good luck,


Joe Ribaudo

That may be premature to state it in such a sweeping way. While Wells Fargo has NO records of ANY gold sales, shipment or otherwise from the 'old west' time period, we know from official records (US Mint) that they were in fact handling gold and silver including ores, and while we do not have any of the receipts in public circulation proving Waltz shipped gold (ore) we do have the letter stating that others had seen the receipts, and that seeing those receipts was what convinced the Petrasch boys to keep searching rather than give up. Those receipts may well turn up in someone's private collection tomorrow, or ten years from now or maybe never too.

Have to agree with Loke here too, it sounds like the Waggoner and Waltz story has gotten a bit mixed up; I have several different versions of the Waggoner story and numerous versions of the Waltz story. In all of the Wagoner stories, he hitches rides on the stagecoach, while I have never seen any version of the lost Dutchman that has Waltz taking the stage. Shipping ore on a stage yes, but not hitching rides on one. Also the planted trees, telling the stage driver how to find it etc are definitely from the Waggoner story. It is very easy to mix up the two, and some details have definitely gotten mixed (by others) like the rose quartz, which is a detail about Waggoner's ore.

Please do continue:

 

[audigger53]

May I respectfully ask from where your information comes? As far as I know, Wagoner got off the stage near Whitlow's ranch and walked in from there - also met the stage at the same place coming out. The half-circle of trees is also from Wagoner - he told the stage-driver about them on his last trip.

Funny you should say Whitlow's Ranch. I went to HS in Florence with some of the Whitlows. And yes they did have a ranch. Wonder if it is the same, if so, the area is much farther south than people thought about.

 

[cactusjumper]

That may be premature to state it in such a sweeping way. While Wells Fargo has NO records of ANY gold sales, shipment or otherwise from the 'old west' time period, we know from official records (US Mint) that they were in fact handling gold and silver including ores, and while we do not have any of the receipts in public circulation proving Waltz shipped gold (ore) we do have the letter stating that others had seen the receipts, and that seeing those receipts was what convinced the Petrasch boys to keep searching rather than give up. Those receipts may well turn up in someone's private collection tomorrow, or ten years from now or maybe never too.

Have to agree with Loke here too, it sounds like the Waggoner and Waltz story has gotten a bit mixed up; I have several different versions of the Waggoner story and numerous versions of the Waltz story. In all of the Wagoner stories, he hitches rides on the stagecoach, while I have never seen any version of the lost Dutchman that has Waltz taking the stage. Shipping ore on a stage yes, but not hitching rides on one. Also the planted trees, telling the stage driver how to find it etc are definitely from the Waggoner story. It is very easy to mix up the two, and some details have definitely gotten mixed (by others) like the rose quartz, which is a detail about Waggoner's ore.

Please do continue:

Roy,

Nice post but, as you know, I have never believed the story of Waltz's big ore shipments. First, Wells Fargo only shipped gold and silver bullion, coins and cash until the railroads came into Arizona. Beyond that, the U.S. Mints only took refined ore for conversion to coins. There was never a U.S. Mint in Sacramento, which is where the story says the "ore" was shipped. No one has ever been able to find the documents that a few people have sworn they saw.

It's now known that Wells Fargo records do exist for the "old west time period". On the other hand, they only started keeping records of gold shipments in Arizona after a certain date.

On the other hand, you could be right.

Take care,

Joe