CPTBILs mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

It took very little effort. The picture placed in an email and a simple question to go along with it. I was fairly certain what the answer would be.

I consider myself a fan, but not a student, of Ancient Mesoamerican History. I am familiar enough with the subject to know who to ask for a qualified opinion, but don't usually know what the answer might be.

I trust you and Beth are staying out of that nasty white stuff. Don't really care if I never see another snowflake. That's why God made Lake Havasu City.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[treasure_girl3]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Hi sorry. Have you guys noticed that in the picture, bellow the head there is a faint word that reads...
PAUL. IMHO I think it could still be a prehistoric drawing.

~Treasure Girl

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Hi Joe,

Thanks again for getting an expert to take a peek at the photo - sometimes we treasure hunters get excited a little too fast and the pants go flying before we realize that we have mis-identified something. Sure wish we could avoid the white crap, we are getting plenty of it this winter here in the Black Hills of SD. I hope you are enjoying the mild winters of AZ, that is one of several things I envy you for!

Treasure Girl, good eye - I can see that "Paul" too below the head figure. Perhaps it is the name of the fellow depicted in the "self portrait" above?

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[DOCC77]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HEY...WERE ALMOST READY TO LEAVE ON A LONG EXPIDITION WE'LL BE IN THAT AREA AND IF YOU'D LIKE TO JOIN US TO SHHOT THE BREEZE AND LOOK AROUND LET US KNOW...

CptBild & Docc

 

[cptbil]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

I am sitting around, here, at the "Old Spread", a waitt'n for the "temp" to climb (get) a few more degrees
So, That I can get back to working on "The Jeep"
So!
I just skimmed thru the above "topic"
I noticed that several items have been missed
First Off!
It was suggested that the "Profile" is of a Native American
Question
If this is so
Tell me ....
What North American Tribe...does or has, SHARPENED Teeth
(Look at the "profile" & check this out !)

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/6_1TheCulturalModificationOfTeeth.htm


odd that so many people insult intelligence and education, but then need the educated to answer their questions.

 

[cptbil]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

As I have already mentioned, in these & other of my posts

I WILL Gladly TAKE anyone to any of these "posts" (Sites)!

I feel that if a person is interested enough, then shouldn't that person be willing to
PUT Forth some Relative effort
AND!
Atleast be willing to travel to the site to see it for themself

SO!
If you'd like to see any of any of my "Posts" (sites) , just let Doc'n Me Know

You buy The
We'll supply the site (Sight)

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

pip,

"odd that so many people insult intelligence and education, but then need the educated to answer their questions."

Can you give an example (quote) of these insults?

If your comment was relevant to this topic, which is always questionable, you might want to reread the posts. I assume you are talking about me, as opposed to Roy, because he is obviously well educated. I made my own "uneducated" opinion clear, and offered to ask for an expert opinion. I believe that shows some degree of doubt concerning my own uneducated opinion, and respect for those who are educated in the topic.

It is always possible that someone of low intelligence might misconstrue my comments as demeaning to themselves or others who have taken the time and effort to become educated, but even a reader of average intelligence can see that I respect the opinions of those who have become experts in any field of choice.
________________________________________________________________

"This looks like a piece of modern junk made to fool tourists."

In response to the above opinion, by Dr. Michael Smith, based on a photograph of an object, I received these coments:

"lol...hate to break it to you joe...dr. smith is a marxist...lolol"

"I wouldn't take the offhand response of any archaeologist seriously without consideration. They're just protecting their jobs, not past civilizations or cultures. In my opinion you are better to do the research yourself than to trust one of those ilk. But then again, I could be wrong."

" I gave those photos to Joe, and indeed, I gave him permission to share them with Mr. Smith. Joe is most certainly welcome to state his opinion, as is Mr. Smith. This was why he was sent the photos.

I'm not surprised or hurt by the response, but I'm not impressed either. I expect as much out of Joe."

Mr. Smith?
_______________________________________________________________________________

By my using the work of Dr. Susan R. Martin as a source, I received this comment:

"a bookworm...
no field experience.
only knows what she read...
someone in here insults people for that.

places copper mining 2000 years before the domestication of corn?

here's her resume, from her own page:

SUSAN RAPALJE MARTIN"
__________________________________________________________________

I consider these comments insulting to both people. On the other hand, considering the sources of the comments, they carry no weight.......whatsoever.

Is this the kind of thing you meant by: "odd that so many people insult intelligence and education..."

Thanks in advance for any clarification you can offer for your comments here.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cptbil]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Say! Pippinwhitepaws
I hope that your post (above) was/is not directed at ME

'cause, as you walk into my home, you'll find a

Master of Science Degree in Engineering


'A Hanging on the south wall


I, has also, worked for NASA !!

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

not at you sir...sorry.
the constant berating of education, by people who believe they are the sole individuals to protect history...gets under my skin some days...

i'd love to take you up on that walk to the site, but i am not capable of the hump at this point in time...
health issue.

take care...find the end of the rainbow.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

pip,

"the constant berating of education, by people who believe they are the sole individuals to protect history...gets under my skin some days..."

Can you provide an example of this "constant berating of education"? If you are unable to address the quotes I provided as examples of "berating of education", I understand. It is always easier to throw out accusations willy-nilly, if you never have to back them up with facts.

There are many people of high intelligence who come on these sites and make foolish statements that they are unable to substantiate. When they are questioned, they become insulted. For some reason, they are unable to differentiate between questions of their "facts" and questions of their intelligence or education. It's possible to possess both of those attributes, and still be totally wrong with your facts.

My sister has a very high I.Q. but still manages to impress people as being an "educated idiot". A person can be a certified "genius", like my sister, and still fall into that category. Would you agree with that statement, or do you believe the two existing together in one person is impossible?

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA amigos,

I think some of the comments referred to by our amigo Pippinwhitepaws are very early in the thread, such as,...

some so-called experts, may more correctly be called intellectual clowns.

It's like the scientists, for all their allegedly unbiased posturing, are "cherry picking" what raw details will support their personal views and discarding the rest.

historians who have made their careers on telling a lie

which shows I am among those posting rather insulting statements. To be fair, our collective frustration with the "educated" folks stems from repeated failures to get such experts to examine things we find or have been found. There is an element among academia which is quite set in their ways, with certain theories taken as dogma and carved in stone like the Bering Straits land bridge theory on the peopling of the Americas, which only now is starting to be proven wrong. Certainly not ALL academics are of the lockstep set, or we would never have any new discoveries or theories. Also to be fair, when we are trying to show an archaeologist some "Templar inscriptions" we found in Utah for example, we need to keep in mind that they get approached with some of the most ridiculous and far-fetched ideas imaginable, that it would be professsional suicide to publicly put their name (and by extension their reputation) in connection with any kind of such theories.

(I am kidding about the Templar inscriptions, just used that to show an example of something that shouldn't be there and would sound quite far fetched to a professional archaeologist.)

I have had a number of incidents in which I could not get a professional even to look at things or after seeing them, refuse to have their names associated with it, but I do understand about the career risks involved. I do have tremendous respect for our historians, archaeologists, paleontologists, anthropologists etc, except those who refuse even to look at things presented to them for their opinions. Such persons are not truly men and women of science IMHO.

I apologize for making statements that have been obviously offensive, and will happily edit and remove any and all such statements. In the main, these comments were written more in the line of complaining and not intended to be insulting.

(Joe I am not particularly well-educated, had no college just a bit of trade school and a few correspondence courses but thank you for the very kind words! I am looking into taking a few geology courses at our excellent SD school of mines, hope it is not too costly.)
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Ladies and Gentlemen: sheehs I was effectively kicked out of high school and conned into entering the Navy as an enlisted man sigh I spent the war as one. NEVER again.

However, in my later explorations, I found that triangular teeth were generally associated with "long pig" kai kai. "cannibalism". Many American tribes resorted to this since their existence was a continuous struggle between plenty and starvation, nature was neither kind nor bountiful. They simply needed the scarce animal protein. They often fought bitterly among themselves for land and females. Females generally had short lives and were in demand for work and breeding.

The Aztecs were supposedly into the practice of cannibalism since the victims of the sacrifice were tumbled down the steep steps to where they were dismembered and eaten by the waiting people.

Religious ceremonies also played a part in that one could supposedly absorb some of the qualities of the vanquished by eating parts of their body.. Even today, Christians symbolically partake of Jesus in their ceremonies, but not as a vanquished being, but to raise themselves.

Then again in the Solomons, they were eaten because they simply tasted good and the protein was welcomed

How shall we divide up Treasure and Cyan gals?? Shall we broil or boil them?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Cactusjumper wrote

There are many people of high intelligence who come on these sites and make foolish statements that they are unable to substantiate. When they are questioned, they become insulted. For some reason, they are unable to differentiate between questions of their "facts" and questions of their intelligence or education. It's possible to possess both of those attributes, and still be totally wrong with your facts.

I recognized myself there too amigo, but one particular point that came out as a positive, it gave me new ambition to get at my own records and new plans for when I get back to Arizona. It is funny, we sometimes run across things while researching these legends and often don't realize the significance.

Don Jose', Dueno de Real y Minas de Tayopa wrote:

in the Solomons, they were eaten because they simply tasted good

Don Jose - LONG PIG "tasted good" sheesh you really did spend plenty of time in the Solomons didn't you? Considering how fat I have gotten since moving here, maybe I ought to re-think my continual quest for an invitation to see Tayopa....
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

My history with pip goes back a bit. He has directed this kind of slur at me before. It's a slur because it has no basis in fact. Even though I have challenged him to bring a direct quote to his attacks, he has been unable to do that. In fact, he has been the one to denigrate those who are at the top of their profession, rather than I.

"Joe I am not particularly well-educated, had no college just a bit of trade school and a few correspondence courses but thank you for the very kind words! I am looking into taking a few geology courses at our excellent SD school of mines, hope it is not too costly.)"

Just stating what is patently obvious. My Uncle was one of the most intelligent men I have ever known. He dropped out of grade school and went to work. Despite that, he taught himself mathematics out of books. He went from basic math to advance trigonometry. He ended up making titanium parts for the Bell X2.

Having a degree does not guarantee intelligence. Making something out of nothing (without formal education) might be a better marker. It would appear that our own education's may be lacking some of the finer points, but we have both managed to create a rewarding life for ourselves. We have loving families and the respect of our friends. My guess is, that we are both feeling pretty satisfied with the paths we have chosen.

People who are less satisfied with their own lives will try to tear us down. Jealousy is a waste of time, as It brings nothing into your life.

"To be fair, our collective frustration with the "educated" folks stems from repeated failures to get such experts to examine things we find or have been found."

My experience has been just the opposite. I have never hesitated to take my questions to the "experts". While I have not received answers from them all, I always received an answer....sometimes a number of answers. All in all, they have been very kind and generous.

You have nothing to apologize for.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

Quote
There are many people of high intelligence who come on these sites and make foolish statements that they are unable to substantiate. When they are questioned, they become insulted. For some reason, they are unable to differentiate between questions of their "facts" and questions of their intelligence or education. It's possible to possess both of those attributes, and still be totally wrong with your facts.


"I recognized myself there too amigo, but one particular point that came out as a positive, it gave me new ambition to get at my own records and new plans for when I get back to Arizona. It is funny, we sometimes run across things while researching these legends and often don't realize the significance."

Anyone who is honest will recognize themselves in what I wrote. How long you hang on to that insult is what sets you apart from......the little people.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

"There is an element among academia which is quite set in their ways, with certain theories taken as dogma and carved in stone like the Bering Straits land bridge theory on the peopling of the Americas, which only now is starting to be proven wrong."

I know the Native Americans are becoming more vocal in their opposition to the "land bridge theory", but there is no reason why their creation stories and the land bridge can't both exist in our history. There is a great deal of archaeological evidence to support the bridge theory.

One interesting bit of physical evidence, is the intaglios which only exist in a few places in the world. They are found in the Gobi Desert in China, all along the Colorado River and in Peru. They may be found in other places, but that's all I am aware of. It may be that others have been destroyed over time.

My personal opinion is that they are a record of a migration that started in China and, possibly, ended in Peru. It has been speculated that, since they can only be viewed from the sky, that they are related to space travelers. I think they were made to show the gods where the people had gone. How else could they find them in their new homes?

Of course that answer is much to simple, but I like it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Cactusjumper wrote

There is a great deal of archaeological evidence to support the bridge theory.

I respectfully disagree amigo - for starters we need only look at the Clovis culture artifacts. Compare them with the artifacts found in eastern Siberia from the same time period and earlier, totally different. The Siberian culture used not stone tools but bone and antler, with tiny chips of stone set into grooves in the tools, Clovis you know well. Clovis seems to have originated from the Cactus Hill culture, which is nearly identical with Solutrean - and you know where they lived. DNA studies have shown a clear relationship of many (but not all) Amerindians to East Asian peoples, but the route they used to get to America is (in my opinion) far more likely to have been by sea than overland. Here is an extract

Once humans were present in north-western North America they continued their migrations into uncharted territory. Either through coastal travel by seagoing cultures or through interior travel via an ice-free corridor which was open intermittently between 23,000 and 13,000 B.C.E., humans made their way south to lands free of the heavy glaciation of the ice age. Either route would have been dangerous and formidable during the ice age. The coastal route would have forced the settlers to move between ice-free pockets as the Cordilleran glacial ice would have expanded as far west as the Pacific Ocean. On the other hand, southward migration via the ice-free corridor would have involved surviving a harsh, windswept, barren valley between two massive continental glaciers. No archaeological evidence has yet been found to support either hypothesis, although glacial activity or rising sea levels could easily have destroyed it. Linguistic evidence tends to support a longer period of habitation on the coast as opposed to the interior, implying that the coastal route was used. It has also been established that people possessing a highly developed maritime culture lived on Heceta Island, off the coast of Oregon, as early as 9,000 years ago. Some scholars feel that this indicates the arrival of a partially developed maritime people several millennia before this date, which also supports the coastal travel hypothesis. The coastal route is the preferred theory for many modern scholars. They feel that seagoing cultures were sufficiently advanced to take advantage of the rapidity and ease of travel by boat, while the ice-free corridor, with its limited period of existence and extremely harsh conditions, would have been sporadically used at best.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/migrations/one2.html

An archie I met in the Yukon told me he had been searching for evidence of this ice-free corridor but could not find any evidence of it ever existing. Even if it did exist, it would have almost certainly had many rushing rivers of melted icewater, creating a series of very dangerous barriers to people trying to travel overland. Just my opinion of course but I see the water route (coastal) as far more likely. Of course if people could travel from east Asia by following the coast, they could do so on the Atlantic coast as well.

Cactusjumper also wrote

One interesting bit of physical evidence, is the intaglios which only exist in a few places in the world. They are found in the Gobi Desert in China, all along the Colorado River and in Peru. They may be found in other places, but that's all I am aware of. It may be that others have been destroyed over time.

My personal opinion is that they are a record of a migration that started in China and, possibly, ended in Peru. It has been speculated that, since they can only be viewed from the sky, that they are related to space travelers. I think they were made to show the gods where the people had gone. How else could they find them in their new homes?

I presume you are talking about the geoglyphs of the Nazca in Peru, correct? There are very interesting geoglyphs scattered in various places around the world, not just in China, Peru and along the Colorado river. Chile has some in the Atacama desert
http://archaeology.about.com/od/artandarchitecture/a/atacama_glyph.htm
the UK has a few

<the Uffington Horse>

<the Long Man of Wilmington>
<http://www.survive2012.com/nazca_lines_5.php>

even in the Caribbean we find them, like the Shark geoglyph on Andros island. I think they are likely religious, but not necessarily related to each other. The Shark geoglyph and the Uffington Horse seem to date to the Ice Age, while the Nazca lines seem to span over 7000 years. Some have theorized that some of the Amerindian mounds of the midwest USA are three-dimensional geoglyphs, like Serpent Mound in Ohio
<a painting, couldn't find a good aerial photo quickly>

The Nazca lines in particular hint (to me) at a cross-oceanic contact in Biblical times...

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD,
make straight in the desert a highway for our God. <Isaiah 403>

Sorry folks for drifting off-topic there. I get carried away very easily....
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

This is one I will have to respectfully disagree with you on. I believe the weight of evidence is overwhelming for the land bridge being the major source of human and animal migration from Asia to North America, and eventually South America. There were many periods when it was ice free and heavily vegetated.

We are, basically, talking twenty-thousand years ago.

Is there a Solutrean connection? Anything is possible, but there is a decided lack of art among the Clovis people, which was found in abundance in France. To be sure, there are good arguments on both sides of this issue, but the land bridge seem more logical than following an ice pack across the Atlantic.

I am skimming the surface here, as we would need much more time, people and space to give this topic the attention it deserves. This is, after all, a treasure related site. Having said that, I will be happy to continue the conversation until it grows cold. Between the two of us, we won't begin to start a ripple in the pond.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

Never thought it would grow that cold, that quick. Must be that global warming thingie.

Perhaps we could discuss one point, so to speak, at a time.

The signifigance of the Clovis Culture would be a great place to start. Would you like to continue or save it for another time and place

Take care,

Joe