CPTBILs mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

Sorry, I missed your reply here.

I don't really disagree with your opinions, as there is evidence to support whatever position anyone wishes to take.

My own opinion is that the Asian occupation of Alaska was a direct results of their following the mammoths, and other primary food sources across the Bering Land Bridge. As there was pressure from the Asian hunters, the animal population would have retreated away from them, and eastward across Beringia.

The wind being unpredictable in the straits, it's hard to say with certainty that the animals were following there noses towards the lush interior of Alaska. At the times when the wind would blow in a westerly direction, there seems little doubt that they could fail to notice which direction promised sustenance.

While there is some argument against it, the evidence seems to support a verdant plain with more than sufficient grass' to support the animals as they moved east across the land bridge.

"Lets look at this from the other direction - where is there any evidence of Clovis having developed in east Asia? Solutrean tools and points are so close to Clovis that often it takes an expert to differentiate them. No expertise is required to differentiate between Clovis and Siberian cultural artifacts, the technology is quite different. The Siberian micro-blade technology dates back over 20,000 years, so...we ought to find microblade tools in a regular trail from the land bridge to Tierra del Fuego, but we don't."

The fact that Clovis like points have been found on the Kamchatka Peninsula as well as similar tools in the Nenana River Valley, both dating to the relatively same time period, denotes a more than possible connection between the two continents. It seems a good bet that Clovis like technology was being developed in Kamchatka at the time the crossings were taking place. Perhaps it was not the dominate method of producing projectile points and other tools, but was only being done by a few knappers of that era.

Compared to societies, technologies can move from place to place at the speed of a single hardy explorer. It may be picked up quickly by some of the people he comes in contact with, and totally ignored by others. That could explain some of the problems with establishing an Asian or Bering Strait/Alaskan origin for Clovis points.

In truth, there are many pros and cons to the lithics questions. The weight of other evidence however, points towards an Asian origin for all Native Americans. Each and every one of the methods for making that determination has its detractors. Others will swear by the science that is used.

No doubt you and I will solve this puzzle before the week is out. :icon_scratch:

Take care,

Joe
 

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Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Don Jose,

I am leaning heavily on Oro to educate me here. the closing comment in my last post was.......tongue-in-cheek. :tongue3:
What I have, are shallow opinions based on the small number of books I have read on the subject. On the other hand, the subject is fascinating, so I continue to add small pieces of wood in hopes that Roy will use that base to build a proper white man's fire.

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA amigos,

My apologies for the delay in replying, and as this reply is very long, I beg your indulgence.

Cactusjumper wrote
My own opinion is that the Asian occupation of Alaska was a direct results of their following the mammoths, and other primary food sources across the Bering Land Bridge. As there was pressure from the Asian hunters, the animal population would have retreated away from them, and eastward across Beringia.
Click to expand...

You have pointed up a key problem with the Bering-land-bridge theory, the main prey / food supply of the Clovis people, the mammoths. For while there were great herds of Mammoths ranging across most of eastern Siberia, they were of a different species of those most common in North America, which are the Columbian mammoths rather than the wooly varieties found in east Asia. Your logic about hunting pressure driving the herds, resulting in the hunters following and thus causing a chain-reaction of migration is sound, except for the species difference problem. If we had only the Wooly Mammoths, the paleontological (bone) record will fit the scenario you have presented - as they originated in Asia, descendants found their way into America. The theory will not fit with the anthropological (human evidence) record however. The Columbian mammoth ranged from Alaska, and the Yukon, across the mid-western United States south into Mexico and Central America. If the land bridge were being used circa 13,000 BC, why then don't we find any Columbian mammoths in east Asia? Why do we not find ANY Clovis artifacts in Siberia?

<Extract from the Hot Springs Mammoth Site>
Mammoths, mastodons, and elephants emerged from a group of mammals with developed trunks and tusks. This group, called proboscideans, is traced back to 55 million years ago. Although related, mammoths, mastodons, and elephants are from different branches of this proboscidean ancestral tree. The first mammoths developed in Africa, and soon ranged into Europe and Siberia. The ancestral mammoth, M. meridionalis, reached North America about 1.7 million years ago. Over thousands of years, adapting to the North American environment, the ancestral mammoth evolved to become the Columbian mammoth (the American mammoth).
<fromhttp://www.mammothsite.com/mammoth_info.html>

This places the crossing of Mammoth ancestors into America some 1.7 million years ago, long before the time period we are referring to when we talk about Clovis by over 1.6 million years. The animal herds moving across the bridge then appears to date too far back in time to "fit" with their migration being due to human hunting pressure.

Strange as it may sound, the basis of Joe's idea (human hunters following the mammoth herds) can also be used from an eastern direction. Not that herds of mammoths walked from Europe into America, but during the Ice Age the sea levels being much lower, a rather large area of land existed that is today beneath the seas. The Continental Shelf extends out a varying distance easterly from N. America, and we know that mammoths of the two main species found in America were numerous on what was then an extensive plains because of the great number of mammoth teeth that have been dredged from the sea floor there. If humans did follow the sea mammals they were hunting (seals, walrus, sea lions, etc) as has been proposed by several theorists, when they made landfall on the western side of the Atlantic they would have found an extensive plains populated with large herds of mammoths. To follow this logic, the Ice-age colonists would then become mammoth hunters by opportunity, perhaps inventing the highly successful Clovis tool kit and then spreading westward across the continent, following the mammoth herds.

teeth200.jpg

Mastodon and mammoth teeth dredged from submerged continental shelf provide evidence that these animals lived south of Laurentide ice sheet. These teeth came from Gulf of Maine north of Cape Cod indicating that these and other animals migrated northward as the ice sheet retreated.

Early people called Paleoindians may have lived on the exposed shelf about 11,000 years ago. Both plants and animals migrated northward as the ice retreated and as the rising sea level inundated the continental shelf.

As the continental ice sheets melted around the globe and the water returned to the ocean basins, sea level rose. At first the sea rose quickly, about 50 feet in 1,000 years. As glacial ice volumes became reduced, the rise in sea level gradually slowed. On Cape Cod, the rate of sea-level rise between 6,000 years ago and 2,000 years ago was about 11 feet per 1,000 years. From 2,000 years ago, the rate of sea-level rise was about three feet per 1,000 year. Rates of worldwide sea-level rise were determined using radiometric ages of submerged shoreline features. Local rates of sea-level rise have been determined by radiocarbon dating of salt-marsh peats that are an accurate indicator of sea level.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/capecod/sea.html

Then we ought to check on our basic assumption of the mammoths being the main prey or diet of the Clovis people - and we would be in error to conclude this as fact. Here is an extract

Mammoth is only a small part of the Clovis diet; extinct bison (Bison antiquus), mastodon (Mastodon
Mastodons or Mastodonts), sloths (Ground sloth), tapir,, palaeolama, horse, and a host of smaller animals have also been found in Clovis sites where they were killed and eaten. In total, more than 125 species of plants and animals are known to have been used by Clovis people in the portion of the Western Hemisphere they inhabited. Clovis sites are known from most of North America, some parts of Central America, and even into northern South America in Venezuela (see Pearson and Ream 2005).http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Clovis_culture :o


If we judge by the concentrations of Clovis artifacts and sites, the greatest concentrations are found along the eastern seaboard, with the thinnest, most widely separated sites being in the far western parts of the continent. I probably mentioned this before, but the Discovery channel (or perhaps the Science channel, can't recall now?) ran a special titled "Ice Age Columbus" which presented a good deal of the recently discovered evidence to support a migration of humans from Europe into the Americas during the Ice Age. The DVD is available at http://shopping.discovery.com/product-59637.html

As for our combined ability to solve this puzzle, we may not gain the recognition from the academic society at large, but may sway the opinions of our peers here on T-net, which I consider to be quite an accomplishment in itself. This period of history is quite fascinating (for me) and IMO the least documented/studied of all human history. Who knows, our little debates may well infuence a true historian into researching the truth and (eventually) resulting in enlightening all of us to our misty past?

I look forward to your response, and thank you in advance. :thumbsup:

Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone reading this, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

My apologies for taking so long to reply. Between family visiting over Spring Break and some LDM research I have been doing, the time just flew by me.

I don't believe there is any evidence for east to west movement patterns for the Bering Land Bridge.

IMHO, the "migration" as you have called it, was no migration at all. What it may very well have been was a long series of permanent settlements over many thousands of years. The people followed the movement of the game as it reacted to the pressure out of Siberia. The settlements were not large, actually quite small. That was the nature of the people......small bands.

As for the Wooly Mammoth/Columbian Mammoth, I believe it is thought (as you posted) that the Columbian evolved from the Wooly Mammoth, which is why none are found in Asia. They evolved in the warmer climes of America. They did not reverse their travel to the west over the Land Bridge, because the climate and vegetation were not something that would attract them.

"It is clear that the origins of the American Paleoarctic tradition and probably many subsequent technological innovations are derived from Asia." E. James Dixon

As for Clovis-like cultures, they did originate in Asia and moved across the Bering Land Bridge.

While it's true that fluted projectile points have not been discovered in Siberia, it is presumed that they were a product that was invented in the Americas. It's also possible that they were developed as the Asian people lived and travelled over the Land Bridge. Since most of civilizations populace has always lived near the oceans, it seems possible that much of the evidence that would help to define what took place during the Ice Ages, is underwater now.

Monte Verde may be the joker in the deck.

Thanks for your reply,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA amigo Joe!
I am glad to hear that your absence was due to a happy cause. I did not mind waiting for your response, and hope that equal patience/forebearance can be found for my occasional absences.

Cactusjumper wrote
It is clear that the origins of the American Paleoarctic tradition and probably many subsequent technological innovations are derived from Asia." E. James Dixon

As for Clovis-like cultures, they did originate in Asia and moved across the Bering Land Bridge.
Click to expand...

Can you provide some evidence (as in artifacts) to support this contention? As to the quotation from Dixon, simply saying "from Asia" does not automatically mean via the Bering strait, as Europeans are (mostly) Caucasians, which are in fact Asians, so even if found in the Americas the people could rightfully be called "Asian". Thank you in advance,
Roy
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

I believe Dixon was following in the footsteps of his teachers and mentors. They included Dave Hopkins, Doug Anderson, Tom Hamilton, Helge Larsen, John Cook and many others. In reading the works of those people, and others, I believe it was their consensus that the first Americans were from Asia.

I can't produce a single artifact....I fear I must take the word of the people who have done the actual work. If that is unacceptable, there is not much I can provide for this discussion, other than quotes from those who have made this subject their life's work. One of the better books on the subject is, "The Bering Land Bridge" Edited by David M. Hopkins. Although I have others, this one is the most extensive. I must admit that much of it is way over my ability to understand the details, but I am just, barely, able to muddle through most of the technical mumbo-jumbo.

Did we get past the Wooly/Columbian Mammoths problem?

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote
I believe Dixon was following in the footsteps of his teachers and mentors. They included Dave Hopkins, Doug Anderson, Tom Hamilton, Helge Larsen, John Cook and many others. In reading the works of those people, and others, I believe it was their consensus that the first Americans were from Asia.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that the conclusions/consensus of these acknowledged experts is accepted by all as the definitive answer? I am sure we can find an encyclopedia which will say that the first Americans came via the Bering Land Bridge but thought we are debating whether they (experts) have proved this theory, or perhaps another theory will fit the facts better.

Cactusjumper also wrote
I can't produce a single artifact....I fear I must take the word of the people who have done the actual work. If that is unacceptable, there is not much I can provide for this discussion, other than quotes from those who have made this subject their life's work. One of the better books on the subject is, "The Bering Land Bridge" Edited by David M. Hopkins. Although I have others, this one is the most extensive. I must admit that much of it is way over my ability to understand the details, but I am just, barely, able to muddle through most of the technical mumbo-jumbo.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean that you must personally show me various artifacts that you have in your possession, and hope you didn't get that impression - rather I meant to ask if you knew of some artifact(s) which would substantiate the theory of an Asian-Bering land bridge genesis for the peopling of America? I can think of one (arguable) proof that would support the theory of humans crossing this land bridge, horses. Horses are native to the Americas and spread to Asia via that land bridge, and horse remains have been found along the route to support the idea.

I doubt that the technical jargon used in the scientific studies is really beyond your vocabulary amigo - though it can be trying at times especially when the writer habitually used initials rather than whole words, forcing us (or any other non-professional) to constantly have to check on what they were intending when using them. There could be plenty of evidence of human presence on the Bering land bridge that lies underwater today, making it much more difficult to find - however the lack of any clearly related artifacts being found on both sides of the Bering straits certainly suggests that no such emigration used that route.

Cactusjumper also wrote
Did we get past the Wooly/Columbian Mammoths problem?
Click to expand...

I don't see that we have, as we don't have any evidence of any Columbian mammoths present on the Asian side and these were the primary mammoth species hunted by Clovis, while the mammoth hunters of Asia hunted other species and with somewhat different technology. Why do we find Clovis artifacts virtually everywhere we also find Columbian mammoths, but where we find no Columbians in the habitat, we also find (almost) no Clovis? (A few exceptions.) If the Asian mammoth hunters were simply following the herds ( a logical assumption) then it is also logical that they would pursue the game they were most familiar with, the woolies, rather than the larger and (arguably) more dangerous Columbians.

Here is a transcript of the PBS special on the Ice Age Explorers,
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3116_stoneage.html

A bit on the DNA group known as "Haplogroup X" (most Amerindians are of Haplogroups A, B, C, and D, but one group is X) which is the European group,
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1406/features/dna2.htm

Interesting article on the mammoth hunters
http://www.cosmicelk.net/mammothhunters.htm

One more point, which questions the idea of humans using (or needing) the Bering land bridge - look at how Australia was first colonized by humans. The first people arrived there around 60,000 years ago (or earlier) and there was no land bridge, the first people came by sea. Humans have followed coastlines from the dawn of history, and crossed seas to reach new lands. I could use an even more remote place - like Easter Island, considered to be the most remote, human-occupied place on Earth; yet when the island was first discovered by Europeans, native peoples were already living there. True the Easter Islanders only arrived a couple of thousand years ago, but they did so using only the most simple technologies. Humans were not just hunting mammoths in the Ice Age - some were hunting sea life including seals, walrus, etc and probably in simple skin boats not dis-similar from those used by Eskimoes and Inuit people in recent time. How far could man travel in such simple contrivances? A party of Eskimoes arrived in the British Isles in the 1800's, quite a shock at the time, and a similar occurance happened in the first century AD when a party of "Indians" came ashore in Germania during the time of Tacitus (they were presented to the Emperor as a 'gift'). The most ancient human remains found in South America appear to be most closely related to Australian Aborigines - so are we going to claim that these people also marched across the land bridge, skipping from extreme SE Asia or Australia to South America without leaving a trace of their passing? Remember that the ancient Aborigines reached Australia by sea, not land.

<Interesting article on ancient South Americans being close relatives to Australian Aborigines>
http://www.ipoaa.com/first_americans_were_australians.htm

Thank you for your replies, and looking forward to your responses. :thumbsup: :coffee2:
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Siberian Mammoth Hunter shelter built of mammoth bones
mezhrecon.gif


Compare to a Clovis culture shelter? It is believed by some that Clovis people used skin-tents for shelters, but not a single mammoth bone structure has ever been found similar to those used by Siberian mammoth hunters.
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

My Friend,

There is little to disagree with in your post. I don't for a minute believe that the land bridge was the only path for the entrance into America. On the other hand, I do believe that those people who came here from Asia, on boats, followed the coastline of the land bridge. They could have, and probably did, reach South America thousands of years before the first people set foot on what is today the mainland of Alaska.

On the other hand, Wooly Mammoths did make it to North America, and the only way for them to do that was on the Bering Land Bridge, during the many times it existed as a viable pathway. No Columbian Mammoths worked their way west to Siberia, because it was just to cold for them.

The mammoths were adapting to their environment and food supply constantly. Columbian Mammoths required a warmer climate and the vegetation that grew in that climate to evolve and survive. The Alaska interior was where they evolved from their Wooly Mammoth cousins. They moved into the Yukon and then south into the warmth. That warmth included Florida, Central America.......and many points between.

You and I are not trying to establish the facts of what actually happened, we are debating the possibilities. That seems to be what the experts do, as well.....for now. That will remain the norm until a fortuitous turn of the spade/trowel creates a new history.

I will eventually get to the dental evidence in our discussion. At some point, a famous figure from LDM history will also surface. :o

Thank you for your reply,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Hello again - Joe you have brought up one of the greatest questions concerning the whole land bridge idea. Just how warm was it, when the land bridge was above sea level? Was it frigid, if so then it could well have been covered in thick ice - or was it relatively warm, with grasses, trees and other vegetation that would support populations of herbivores, in which case the rivers could have been rushing torrents of ice-cold glacial meltwaters, presenting impassible barriers even to large mammals like mammoths. We have conflicting experts on the climate of the region during the period we are referring to.

I forgot to include the link where I found the depiction of a mammoth-bone shelter in my last post, here is that site
http://www.donsmaps.com/mammothcamp.html

The cultural differences between Old World mammoth hunters and New World counterparts are one of the reasons why I think they (Clovis or Clovis ancestors) did not come via the land bridge - Clovis people are thought to have used skin tents or other simple hide shelters (lean-to) while those of Asia constructed quite different shelters; Clovis people cooked in pits, the Asian mammoth hunters on open fires; the tool kit of Clovis people includes a couple of items found in Solutrean kits, one being rather distinctive beveled, crosshatched bone rods (not sure of the purpose of these) - triangular scrapers and mammoth-bone spear points. I have not been able to find whether any East Asian mammoth hunters used Atlatls (spear throwers) but this might be another clue, as Clovis people used them and according to one source the Atlatls first appeared in Europe around ~18,000 years ago. While this could be coincidences and even if we could prove that Clovis did not cross the land bridge from Siberia, we could not prove that Clovis culture wasn't independent American invention. (Ancient Yankee Ingenuity?) :o ::) ;D :wink:

Perhaps no single theory is the whole answer - some people arriving via the land bridge, some following the coast, or even some crossing the open Pacific similarly to the later Polynesians? (Not to mention the possibility of some following the ice-coast from Europe?) What do you think? Thank you in advance,
your friend,
Roy
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

"The cultural differences between Old World mammoth hunters and New World counterparts are one of the reasons why I think they (Clovis or Clovis ancestors) did not come via the land bridge - Clovis people are thought to have used skin tents or other simple hide shelters (lean-to) while those of Asia constructed quite different shelters; Clovis people cooked in pits, the Asian mammoth hunters on open fires; the tool kit of Clovis people includes a couple of items found in Solutrean kits, one being rather distinctive beveled, crosshatched bone rods (not sure of the purpose of these) - triangular scrapers and mammoth-bone spear points. I have not been able to find whether any East Asian mammoth hunters used Atlatls (spear throwers) but this might be another clue, as Clovis people used them and according to one source the Atlatls first appeared in Europe around ~18,000 years ago. While this could be coincidences and even if we could prove that Clovis did not cross the land bridge from Siberia, we could not prove that Clovis culture wasn't independent American invention. (Ancient Yankee Ingenuity?)"

Lots to talk about in your last post. I am at our store, so I don't take anything I write to the bank....yet.

The atlatl is a bit older than you think. I did some research into the subject quite some time ago, when I was looking into Mormon history, as it pertains to the bow. The natural extension was the atlatl. I believe the oldest atlatl ever found is closer to thirty thousand years old, and was found in France. It is no stretch to find it in Siberia, and it is, I believe, fairly well accepted that the Asian people brought it to America across the Bering Land Bridge.

In my research I contacted a number of well known archaeologist's including Professors: Michael Coe and Michael E. Smith. Both men, and others, were kind enough to offer me their opinions on the history of these weapons in the Americas.

Dr. Coe worked with the Mormons on archaeological digs in Meso-America.

How a people survive (i.e., Hunting methods, weapons, shelter.....etc.) Is dictated by their environment, rather than tradition. This is especially true if they were to slowly migrate from Siberia to North America and then into the southern regions of this continent. "Necessity is the mother of invention". The Clovis Points you cite, were likely perfected on this continent, as was the culture.

The development of fire-pits over open fires seems like a no-brainer in the natural progression of a culture/society. Fire-pits are more heat efficient while using less fuel than open fires. I believe many innovations were invented as a result of the conditions the Asian peoples encountered as they moved across the grassy savanna of the land bridge.

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Greetings Joe (and HOLA amigos to everyone),

Cactusjumper wrote
The atlatl is a bit older than you think.
Click to expand...

Do you know of any examples of atlatls ever being found in any of the Siberian mammoth hunter camps? (thank you in advance)

Cactusjumper also wrote
How a people survive (i.e., Hunting methods, weapons, shelter.....etc.) Is dictated by their environment, rather than tradition. This is especially true if they were to slowly migrate from Siberia to North America and then into the southern regions of this continent. "Necessity is the mother of invention". The Clovis Points you cite, were likely perfected on this continent, as was the culture.

The development of fire-pits over open fires seems like a no-brainer in the natural progression of a culture/society. Fire-pits are more heat efficient while using less fuel than open fires. I believe many innovations were invented as a result of the conditions the Asian peoples encountered as they moved across the grassy savanna of the land bridge.
Click to expand...

Hmm - well then the Clovis points ought to have spread westward back into Asia, as the terrain, climate and game animals were extremely similar - virtually identical with some exceptions (Columbian mammoths, example) and the people were hunting very much the same animals. Was there some barrier to prevent any Clovis people from re-crossing the land bridge?

The use of fire-pits logically would have come into use in Siberia, as it is more heat efficient (less problems with wind, faster cooking etc) even if independently invented. They didn't however - why? If horses (and porcupines) were able to migrate across the land bridge into Asia, and we know that humans were actively hunting horses, shouldn't some of the Americans have crossed into Asia, following the herds, and thus left behind their tools? Interesting article on Ice-age climate of Alaska-Siberia ("Beringia")
http://esp.cr.usgs.gov/research/alaska/alaskaC.html

extract
It has long been thought that the Bering land bridge was the logical route by which humans first entered North America from northeastern Asia, perhaps about 12,000 years ago. The assumption was that the first humans to enter North America were big game hunters following game such as bison, mammoth, caribou, and horses. More recently, evidence from an archeological site in southern South America has been dated to at least 12,500 radiocarbon years ago (Dixon, 1999. Bones, Boats & Bison: Archeology and the First Colonization of Western North America. University of New Mexico Press, Albuquerque). In order for humans to reach southern South America that early, or earlier, they may have followed the west coast of North America, using boats and utilizing marine food resources rather than depending on large terrestrial mammals as their primary food source. Archeological sites found in southeastern Alaska, the Queen Charlotte Islands of northern British Columbia, and other sites farther south suggest humans with marine adaptations were present at least 10,000 radiocarbon years ago. The search for older west coast archeological sites is under way, but many potential sites are now deep under sea water. Melting ice sheets during deglaciation produced enormous volumes of water that caused sea level to rise to near present levels by about 5000 years ago.

I also have to respectfully disagree with your earlier statement,
<Cactusjumper wrote>
On the other hand, Wooly Mammoths did make it to North America, and the only way for them to do that was on the Bering Land Bridge, during the many times it existed as a viable pathway. No Columbian Mammoths worked their way west to Siberia, because it was just too cold for them.

The mammoths were adapting to their environment and food supply constantly. Columbian Mammoths required a warmer climate and the vegetation that grew in that climate to evolve and survive. The Alaska interior was where they evolved from their Wooly Mammoth cousins. They moved into the Yukon and then south into the warmth. That warmth included Florida, Central America.......and many points between.
Click to expand...

Columbian mammoths lived in Alaska and the Yukon, quote
The Columbian Mammoth (sometimes refered to as Colombian Mammoth) lived in Northern America (from Alaska, and the Yukon, across the mid-western United States south into Mexico and Central America) during Middle and Late Pleistocene, and they disappeared about 12 thousands years ago.


<from http://www.elephant.se/columbian_mammoth.php?open=Extinct Proboscidea>

...so if Columbians were living in Alaska - which was then directly joined with and part of Beringia, our land bridge - there is no logical reason why they should not have followed horse herds and migrated west into Asia, perhaps as in seasonal migrations like we find with many large mammals. This just doesn't make sense, among many puzzling facts of that age. For that matter, from your statements I get the impression that you are saying the Columbians evolved from Woolies, but at least one source claims the Columbians descend from the Southern Mammoth (Mammuthus meridionalis) , which ranged over western Europe <Geographic region : France Italy Spain according to http://taxonomicon.taxonomy.nl/TaxonProperties.aspx?id=69375&tree=0.1> so this line of logic, that Wooly mammoths crossed into America and then evolved into Columbians after migrating into the warmer southern areas, may be flawed.

Thank you in advance, looking forward to your response. (BTW I don't ever mind if you are working strictly from memory - heck I have to do that most of the time or rely on what is online, which is not the best source material. So I won't be calling you on some point that you might post, which later is checked and found to be not quite correct, and hope for the same consideration as I am sure to make many such errors! :o :-[ ;D) <EDIT in fact I had to correct this very post, got a whole paragraph out of sequence - must be becoming dislexic!) :-[
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

Around 14,000 years ago, it is believed, the first Clovis people entered North America by using the Bering Land Bridge. They brought the atlatl, and the Clovis style points.

I believe that atlatl's and Clovis points came from the Solutrean culture in France. As there is no evidence of Solutrean seafaring, it seems more likely that those tools came across Europe and into Asia. Since the oldest atlatl found, is 27,000 years old, and was found in France, it does not seem that much of a stretch to make the connection.

Atlatl's are made of wood and bone and leave little in the way of artifacts over thousands of years. There is some evidence that they were used by Siberian Aleuts.

I have no doubt that Asians traveled along the west coast of North America and into South America as well. I also believe they came along the southern perimeter of Beringia in their boats, just as those who came on land hugged the southern coastline. It seems obvious that there were no great rivers that would have stopped their progress across the land bridge.

In my opinion, the mammoths simply followed their noses east. Once here, they found the food sources and climate to their liking, and never looked back. Pretty much the same pattern you find with the elderly and Florida. :icon_sunny:

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Greetings Joe,

<you wrote>
Around 14,000 years ago, it is believed, the first Clovis people entered North America by using the Bering Land Bridge. They brought the atlatl, and the Clovis style points.
Click to expand...

Do you agree with those conclusions? I know that a good number of the experts do agree with it, but not all. Isn't it strange that no trace of Clovis people have been found on the Siberian side, if this idea is correct? Of course the evidence may simply lie under the Bering Sea today and it is unlikely that it could ever be found there. I could accept Clovis being "independent invention" here in America more easily than their being immigrants via the land bridge, based on what evidence is known. As for the atlatl, I have not been able to find any mention of any ever being found in any of the Siberian mammoth hunter sites, which does not prove they did not have them - few exist at all due to the materials they were constructed of. They may have been found and it is simply a case that I have not yet found them mentioned, which is why I asked if you knew of any instance.

The mammoths are quite a puzzle (to me) for the Woolies seem to have been able to cross and re-cross the land bridge, while two separate wooly species did develop on each side of the strait, one is found on both sides. (Mammuthus Primigenus Primigenus sound right?) If the Columbian (and other uniquely American mammoth species) did evolve from the Southern Mammoth, which was not a wooly species (the Woolies evolved separately about the same time as the Southern from the 'Ancestral' Mammoth) then how did Southern Mammoths cross into America, assuming the land bridge was at best a cold climate? True their crossing was much farther back in time, (either 1.2 million or 2.3 million years ago depending on which source we site) so could the answer be that the land bridge was much warmer then? If it was that much warmer that non-wooly species could inhabit the region, shouldn't the sea levels have been too high for the land bridge to exist? This part doesn't make sense to me, and it seems that the experts are divided on it almost as much as they are on the theories of the peopling of the Americas. "Paleoclimatology" is a fairly new branch of science, so far the findings have been pretty interesting.

Thank you for your replies, I hope all is well with you and looking forward to your response.
your friend,
Roy
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

Yes I do believe in those conclusions. They seem logical to me. It is unlikely there will ever be total agreement among archaeologists about any of the theories concerning the land bridge. Every new theory, or methodology for dating or authenticating artifacts will face a territorial fight among the "experts". Like finding a doctor, I believe you have to find archaeologist's that you trust, and then test their theories against your own "unqualified" beliefs. Each time you are satisfied with their compatibility with your own conclusions, the trust grows stronger.

In other words, it's important to first trust your own intelligence. That might be unwarranted by my actual abilities but for me, that's the first step.

Once the "Woolies" evolved into the Columbian, they were prevented from re-crossing into Siberia by the frigid temperature which acted like a virtual wall. Having lived in Arizona for almost twenty years now, it would be like me pulling up stakes and moving to........South Dakota. Not very likely! :wink:

Over the thousands of years that the land bridge came and went, there was a wide range of temperatures. At it's widest point, the land bridge was over 900 miles, north to south. "The interior landscape was evidently a low rolling plain, for the most part devoid of relief, studded with bogs and swamps, frozen much of the time, and lacking in trees or even many bushes. Grass-eating herbivores may have been present in fair numbers. The human adaptation to this region must surely have been that of big-game hunters, living by means of scavenging dead mammoths and such bovids as caribou, bison, and musk-ox, and by intentionally hunting live animals. The big-game hunting tradition was well developed at an early date in the New World, as is evidenced by the Folsom and Clovis cultures of ten to twelve thousand years ago.
Unless their physiological adaptation to cold was considerably greater than that of the cold-adapted contemporary Eskimos, these early hunters would have required shelter, fire, and clothing, including boots and mittens of some sort. Shelter could well have consisted of tents, and the use of double-walled tents, such as those presently in use by the Chukchi and by Asiatic Eskimos, would have been practicable . Lacking wood for fuel, they would have had to resort to fat, oil and marrow for heat; whether they rendered fat to produce oil for lamps or used fat lamps, they required fire."

I hope this gives you an answer to some of your questions, and anticipates some......yet to be voiced. :icon_study:

In my initial search for someone who's opinions I could trust on this topic, I looked for an archaeologist that was respected and admired by many of his peers. The man I settled on was David M. Hopkins. I have read "The Bering Land Bridge", which he edited for publication, twice. In addition, I have opened it to selected areas many times in our discussion. Twenty years ago, I would only have needed to read it once to know where to find my "facts". It's an amazingly deep book, full of information from some of the foremost authorities on: "Geology, oceanography, paleontology, plant geography, and anthropology.....Most of the papers, by American, Russian, Icelandic, German, English, and Canadian specialists, were originally prepared for a symposium at the VII Congress of the International Quaternary Association held in September 1965."

Many people have a hard time wrapping their minds around the term "migration", as it applies to what took place on Beringia. In fact, the people themselves would not have considered themselves as migrating. They were simply moving their permanent occupation site from one place to another.......over thousands of years. They, along with the mammoths, had no idea they were crossing, or even that there was anything to cross, at all.

Even though it may seem that I am stating facts here, almost everything is opinions......even the quotes.

I am loving this conversation. Can you tell? :thumbsup:

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA amigo Joe (and everyone),
You covered some interesting points, which I would like to address. <EDIT - this got to be a very long reply, so I beg your indulgence.>

Cactusjumper wrote
Once the "Woolies" evolved into the Columbian, they were prevented from re-crossing into Siberia by the frigid temperature which acted like a virtual wall. Having lived in Arizona for almost twenty years now, it would be like me pulling up stakes and moving to........South Dakota. Not very likely!
Click to expand...

Well - concerning the odds of your packing up and moving to Dakota, I would bet that if enough people were to crowd in on your home, you might look to even colder places than SD, like Alaska! ;D As for the Woolies evolving into the non-wooly Columbias, the sources I looked at have that differently. They claim the 'tree' of evolution and relationship (basing part of the conclusions on teeth, ridges specifically)

_____Ancestral Mammoth____
| |
Southern Mammoth Wooly Mammoth {Primigenus}
| |
Columbian Woolies (Siberian + American)
The Southern Mammoths reached the Americas around 2 million years ago, the Woolies came much later in a "second wave" of colonists, arriving between 100,000 to 65,000 years ago. Of course perhaps they have it wrong, but on this point it looks like the Columbians descended from the Southerns on a parallel with the Woolies who did not reach the Americas for over a million years after the Southerns.

Cactusjumper also wrote
Over the thousands of years that the land bridge came and went, there was a wide range of temperatures. At it's widest point, the land bridge was over 900 miles, north to south. "The interior landscape was evidently a low rolling plain, for the most part devoid of relief, studded with bogs and swamps, frozen much of the time, and lacking in trees or even many bushes. Grass-eating herbivores may have been present in fair numbers. The human adaptation to this region must surely have been that of big-game hunters, living by means of scavenging dead mammoths and such bovids as caribou, bison, and musk-ox, and by intentionally hunting live animals. The big-game hunting tradition was well developed at an early date in the New World, as is evidenced by the Folsom and Clovis cultures of ten to twelve thousand years ago.
Unless their physiological adaptation to cold was considerably greater than that of the cold-adapted contemporary Eskimos, these early hunters would have required shelter, fire, and clothing, including boots and mittens of some sort. Shelter could well have consisted of tents, and the use of double-walled tents, such as those presently in use by the Chukchi and by Asiatic Eskimos, would have been practicable . Lacking wood for fuel, they would have had to resort to fat, oil and marrow for heat; whether they rendered fat to produce oil for lamps or used fat lamps, they required fire."
Click to expand...

Much in this part, for one, based on the evidence of various cultures that is known, we have zero evidence of any Clovis or Folsum people on the Asian side; of the culture that IS found there dating to the Ice Age, the technology was the micro-blade type, non-pit cooking, etc. There IS a small amount of the microblade technology found on the American side, but very little and over a relatively small area - one could even say that it looks like what Asians did cross did not penetrate beyond interior Alaska - as if something was in fact blocking any progress to the south or east, like massive glaciers. Conversely, what Clovis evidence is found in Alaska is very sparse - most say that NO Clovis artifacts have been found there, others point to a few stone points which are possibly Clovis. The stone artifacts found in Alaska which date to Clovis period (and slightly earlier) includes the Nenana culture and these lack the 'trademark' fluting on the points. Just my opinion but looking at what evidence that has been found, I am not convinced that any mammoth-hunter culture actually crossed the land bridge into America, following the herds even though that seems a quite logical scenario. Considering the pattern of the predominant American mammoth hunter (Clovis) it looks like it first appeared in the east coast of the US, then spread across most of the continent westerly. Clovis just "appears" in America which supports independent invention, and the Cactus Hill culture certainly could be the ancestors of Clovis - then in the Old World the closest looking ancestors looks (to me) to be the Solutreans, a people whom were also mammoth hunters and thought responsible for many excellent cave paintings. These cave paintings include oceanic fishes and sea mammals hunted, which does not PROVE that the Solutreans had any seagoing abilities but certainly is suggestive of it.

The odds are that no trace of any kind of water craft could be found, considering what materials they would have been constructed from (skin, wood) and a wet environment that would today be far below sea levels. However considering that humans crossed the open sea to reach Australia some 60,000 years ago, by 15,000 or 12,000 years ago we should not assume the humans had lost any abilities to cross waters simply because we find none of their boats. Based on DNA research it appears that several "waves" of immigrants colonized the Americas over a very long period, and not all of them being Asian (European Haplogroup X and the negroids found in extreme southern South America) would point to the probability that these colonists did not all arrive by the same route. So while some may have simply walked across, others likely arrived by sea - even accidentally. Several African fisherman were recently blown to South America by a storm, in a rather tiny open boat. The Eskimo culture you mentioned goes back at least 9000 years, is it so much to think that even earlier than this, men were capable of hunting sea mammals? The cold-technology you mentioned was more widespread than today - remember those Mammoth hunters were pursuing the animals in an Ice Age after all, enduring terrible winters and living quite close to the very edges of glaciers of almost un-imaginable size. The use of fats for fuel is debatable - some have suggested the mammoth hunters were using dry animal dung (droppings) as fuel, as well as dry grasses similarly to Plains Amerindian habits of recent centuries. Perhaps a study has been done on the charcoal found in ancient campsites?

Cactusjumper also wrote
Many people have a hard time wrapping their minds around the term "migration", as it applies to what took place on Beringia. In fact, the people themselves would not have considered themselves as migrating. They were simply moving their permanent occupation site from one place to another.......over thousands of years. They, along with the mammoths, had no idea they were crossing, or even that there was anything to cross, at all.
Click to expand...

I think the way we are using the term "migration" is simply the hunters following the game, which would have truly been migrating with the seasons. There is evidence of Folsum people remaining over a winter at very high altitude, (one site is located on top of a high mountain ridge) which seems odd but apparently the temps were slightly warmer, the winds kept the snows from becoming too deep, and they were able to keep watch over the nearby valleys in case any game animals should come through. It suggests that they were able to store a food supply over the worst months. The Plains Indians "migrated" each year, following the herds of bison, not truly migrating but rather following the herds.

I too am very much enjoying the discussion - and though I cannot hope to reach the level of the academics you have been communicating with, this has been enlightening and interesting for me. :thumbsup: We may not prove the true history to anyone but that isn't the point anyway is it?
your friend,
Roy
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Not mine...posted elsewhere on the net.
I can say i have seen another example...
 

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Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

The lack of Clovis points in Siberia seem to be the real roadblock to establishing a positive link for the first Amerindians crossing the land bridge from Siberia. Once again I am at the store, so don't take any of what I write to the bank......yet.

My, unqualified, opinion is that the technology may have been in its infancy when the first Asians left the mainland of Siberia. Those who had any knowledge or skill at Clovis-type points were in that first wave that moved off of the mainland.

Some evidence of those seminal efforts were found at an excavation of the Dyuktai Cave site in north eastern Siberia. While there are substantial differences in the points and tools, I have no idea why anyone would expect them to be exact copies of the Clovis Culture. I would say, they evolved into Clovis. And that took place on this continent.

If you assume that the first people to leave Siberia were mariners, and that they hugged the southern coast of Berringia, and then travelled down the western coast of our continent, they very well could have arrived at Monte Verde thousands of years before we find evidence of human habitation on Kodiak Island and Alaska's mainland.

As for ice blocking any southern movement of the first settlers of North America, there is a well known theory that there was an "ice free corridor" just east of the Rocky Mountains that was created when the two, separate, ice sheets that covered the country receded away from each other.

Much of this is personal opinion which will carry varying degrees of weight with my many fans. :)

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Cactusjumper wrote
The lack of Clovis points in Siberia seem to be the real roadblock to establishing a positive link for the first Amerindians crossing the land bridge from Siberia.
Click to expand...

So you are saying that the Clovis people came via the land bridge and developed their 'signature' points/tools some time after, which could be after they had moved south some distance? One then has to wonder why these Clovis people with the new, improved tools, cooking techniques etc didn't spread back across the land bridge? What could have prevented them?

Cactusjumper also wrote
As for ice blocking any southern movement of the first settlers of North America, there is a well known theory that there was an "ice free corridor" just east of the Rocky Mountains that was created when the two, separate, ice sheets that covered the country receded away from each other.
Click to expand...

I am fairly familiar with this "ice free corridor" theory, the problem with it is that there is no evidence of any such corridor, not in the time frame when people were supposedly colonizing America - there were massive glaciers up to two miles thick,
dixmap1.GIF

<extract>
During the height of the last Ice Age, massive glaciers covered much of northern North America. The first humans to enter the region would have been confronted by a seemingly endless icescape reaching from Canada’s Yukon Territory in the north to the Great Lakes in the south. The continental glaciers would have blocked human migration southward until the ice melted sufficiently to enable plants and animals to colonize the deglaciated land.

Several researchers have hypothesized that an “ice-free corridor” may have existed in the region of central-western Canada. They further theorized that this hypothetical “corridor” could have provided an avenue through which humans may have passed from Beringia to the more southern regions of the continent prior to the end of the last Ice Age. This ice-free corridor concept was used to explain the discovery of archaeological evidence south of the continental glaciers believed to be older than 11,500 BP (13,050 cal BP) and predating the melting of the glaciers.
...
Exciting new discoveries are causing some researchers to question many of these traditional concepts. For example, geologists working in Canada have recently demonstrated that the “ice-free corridor” did not exist, and that connections between eastern Beringia and areas south of the continental glaciers probably were not established until about 11,000 BP (12,550 cal BP). Radiocarbon dates previously used to support the existence of an ice-free corridor or that suggest early deglaciation of central Canada have proven inaccurate (MacDonald 1987). The distribution of quartzite erratics (large rocks transported by glaciers) derived near the headwaters of Alberta’s Athabasca River (Jackson et al. 1997) demonstrates the coalescence of the Cordilleran and Laurentide ice over an extensive area in southern Alberta (Jackson et al. 1996) and that the coalesced continental glaciers did not melt in southern Alberta until sometime about 12,000-11,000 BP (13,600-12,550 cal BP) (Jackson et al. 1996:223).

Recent studies demonstrate that Beringia and the unglaciated areas of North America remained separated by the continental glacier until about 11,000 BP (12,550 cal BP) when the glaciers had melted enough to enable people to move from eastern Beringia southward into the lower latitudes of North America (Rutter 1984, Clague et al. 1989, Jackson and Duk-Rodkin 1996, Jackson et al. 1997). Because the ice sheets blocked this southern route, the North American continent south of the glaciers could not have been colonized by humans on foot until sometime about 11,000 BP


<from http://www.athenapub.com/10Dixon.htm>

If you can show where this theoretical ice-free corridor was (it is possible the geologists missed it, you know geologists have a habit of being at odds with historians' versions of history) and which can be dated to be open at least by 13,500 years ago (when the first Clovis points seem to appear) remember this ice-free corridor had to be open even before this time if the Clovis people came from Asia by the land bridge and then developed their toolkit in America so perhaps we ought to push that date back a century or more. Best bet is probably the Peace river valley (personal opinion) however the geologists say there is no evidence of any life there between 11,000 and 21,000 years ago, that it was covered with a huge glacier.

If the continental glacier did make a huge blockade, it would explain why no Columbian mammoths spread back over the land bridge into Asia. By the time there was a corridor open - they were extinct along with most of the mega-fauna.

I hope all is well with you, had our first 80 degree day here (right after the cold it seems quite a shock) so things may get busy soon. I look forward to your replies,
your friend,
Roy
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

"So you are saying that the Clovis people came via the land bridge and developed their 'signature' points/tools some time after, which could be after they had moved south some distance? One then has to wonder why these Clovis people with the new, improved tools, cooking techniques etc didn't spread back across the land bridge? What could have prevented them?"

There could be many reasons but the strongest, IMHO, would be the length of time they had been gone from Siberia.
We are talking generations here, and they didn't even realize they had left their original homeland. The land changed little until they reached the interior of Alaska, which was infinitely better than anything they had seen during their migration.

I was born in Wyoming. Visited and worked there a few times, but if I had to walk from here......

You wrote:

"The cultural differences between Old World mammoth hunters and New World counterparts are one of the reasons why I think they (Clovis or Clovis ancestors) did not come via the land bridge - Clovis people are thought to have used skin tents or other simple hide shelters (lean-to) while those of Asia constructed quite different shelters; Clovis people cooked in pits, the Asian mammoth hunters on open fires".

The oldest people found in Alaska belonged to the Nenana Culture. They built their fires on the open ground with no preparation. Does that sound like your Siberian mammoth hunters? :o

I believe just as many qualified opinions can be found for the ice free corridor as against the theory. It would take weeks to list them all. While there is no physical evidence, it's a popular theory.....with legs, so to speak. :icon_study:

As an aside:

This from a Newspaper article; The Register-Guard (Eugene, OR), April 4, 2008:

Human remains found in a cave in Southeastern Oregon have pushed back the known occupation of the Americas by more than a thousand years and vindicated the work of a University of Oregon archaeologist more than 70 years ago.

The evidence, found by current UO archaeologist Dennis Jenkins and his students, offers the first hard evidence that humans found their way into the New World before the emergence of what is known as the Clovis people about 13,000 years ago. The material found in caves near Paisley during digs in 2002 and 2003 has been radiocarbon dated to about 14,300 years ago.

http://www.uoregon.edu/~ftrock/paisley_caves_description.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paisley_Caves

http://archaeology.about.com/b/2008/04/03/paisley-caves-the-discovery-of-preclovis-human-DNA.htm
________________________________________

Forgot to mention.......There is ample evidence that the mammoth hunters of Siberia did construct tents. Once they arrived on this continent, and the mammoth became scarce, they naturally changed their methods of construction. If you could build a tent using slender wooden poles, would you continue to use mammoth bones???

Take care,

Joe
 

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