CPTBILs mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA Joe!

I would be delighted to continue - and find the Clovis culture quite fascinating. (I only recently learned of what was a very good Clovis site just a few miles north of town here right on the SD/WY border, have plans to go check it out when I get a chance.) When you wrote "Between the two of us, we won't begin to start a ripple in the pond." I got the <mistaken> impression you were not interested in discussing this any further.
Roy
 

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Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

PS I have to gripe here. As Clovis people were Mammoth hunters, it reminded me of a great nitwit idea that is being pushed here. Over in the next town we have a site known as the "Mammoth Site" in Hot Springs SD. It is a natural sinkhole that trapped many mammoths as well as sabre-toothed cats, dire wolves etc so has many bones, tusks etc. The curator of the museum stated to our local newspaper that they are hoping to bring LIVING Mammoths back to the Black Hills region.

The fact that Mammoths were not driven into extinction by modern man's urban sprawl, deforestation or pollution but were victims either of natural selection, disaster or overhunting (the natural disaster idea looks most likely IMHO) which should be fair reason NOT to try to bring back such large, dangerous animals into a region that is hardly a "wilderness" but is rather well populated with homes, ranches etc. There are no remaining natural predators to control their numbers, and I highly doubt that ordinary ranch fences are going to do anything to control their movements, but our "genius" curator sees no potential problems of any kind - he sums up his position with two words - "Why not?". Sheesh. It is types like him that casts academia in a less-than-flattering light. Can you imagine what kind of damage a herd of Columbian Mammoths would do to a growing cornfield? ::)

Sorry for the off-topic gripe.
Roy
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

My bet would be that it was a combination of climate change and overhunting that killed the beasts. On the other hand, beauty must also take some share of the blame. :)

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

Actually, I probably mis.....wrote. What I was trying to intimate, was my own knowledge of the subject would not begin to start a ripple in that pond. :icon_scratch: I fully expect that you could cause some rather large waves.

[I respectfully disagree amigo - for starters we need only look at the Clovis culture artifacts. Compare them with the artifacts found in eastern Siberia from the same time period and earlier, totally different. The Siberian culture used not stone tools but bone and antler, with tiny chips of stone set into grooves in the tools, Clovis you know well.]

The earliest traces of the Clovis Culture are from around 13,000 years ago. It is believed that the land bridge was created 20-25,000 years ago. In fact, there is some evidence that puts the date at 40,000 years. There is no doubt that, in the period you are talking about, Clovis artifacts would not be found in Eastern Siberia.

It is believed that the migration took place long before the first Clovis Cultures were established. Only 1,000 years were needed to populate North and South America. I believe Clovis points were first created in North America. They did not originate in Europe or Asia. The timelines are important in coming to these conclusions.

[Clovis seems to have originated from the Cactus Hill culture, which is nearly identical with Solutrean - and you know where they lived.]

The operative word in your last statement is........"nearly". The lithic technology for Old World and New World is problematic.......in the Clovis era. It is possible to make a Solutrean connection, but I don't believe it is within that Clovis window.

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

There are no remaining natural predators to control their numbers, and I highly doubt that ordinary ranch fences are going to do anything to control their movements, but our "genius" curator sees no potential problems of any kind - he sums up his position with two words - "Why not?".
Click to expand...

Whenever I read these sorts of comments, I feel like responding with "just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD!"

Calling an idea like this a "nitwit idea" is polite in my book Oro :)
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Well i think mitochondrial dna evidence will eventually help us understand what happened in the past. My impression of the current state is bascially thaere are not enough samples taken in western hemisphere to draw definitive conlclusions., But even with the few samples taken there are some emerging interesting interpretations.

By Roger Highfield, Science Editor, in Washington DC
EUROPEANS colonised America up to 30,000 years ago, perhaps by crossing the Atlantic, according to a genetic analysis of native Americans that sheds light on their origins. By studying the DNA in "power packs" of cells called mitochondria, scientists can compare populations to reveal evidence of ancient migrations, the American Association for the Advancement of Science was told. Such work reveals four major lineages in native Americans which can be traced to Siberia and north-east Asia, notably in Baikal and Altai-Sayan.

However, a fifth - more minor - founding lineage, called haplogroup X, can be traced to Europe, and is found in North American populations, said Dr Theodore Schurr of the Southwest Foundation for Biomedical Research in San Antonio, Texas. Dr Schurr said: "This is one of the intriguing findings that we have come across recently. These data imply that haplogroup X was present in the New World long before Europeans first arrived in the New World, before Columbus or the Vikings or anybody else."

The find has led to some speculation that ancient people crossed the Atlantic from the Old World, because evidence of the group has not so far been found in Asia, though he stressed that not all central Asian groups had been analysed. Dr Schurr said: "Haplogroup X was brought to the New World by an ancient Eurasian population in a migratory event distinct from those bringing the other four lineages to the Americas."

The haplogroup X occurs most among Algonkian-speaking groups such as the Ojibwa, and has been detected in two pre-Colombian north American populations. Today, haplogroup X is found in between two and four per cent of European populations, and in the Middle East, he said, particularly in Israel.The complex origins of the first Americans has also been highlighted by an analysis of thousands of skulls from around the world. A team of anthropologists from the University of Michigan found that the study confirmed the complex origins of Native Americans that have been suggested by recent archeological and genetic studies.
Click to expand...

There is more at this link, along with some related articles about those old old sites in south america and the topper sight. The rest of this article is about 3/4s the way down the page.
http://mathildasanthropol...rdpress.com/?s=NEW+MEXICO
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote
The operative word in your last statement is........"nearly". The lithic technology for Old World and New World is problematic.......in the Clovis era. It is possible to make a Solutrean connection, but I don't believe it is within that Clovis window.
Click to expand...

Lets look at this from the other direction - where is there any evidence of Clovis having developed in east Asia? Solutrean tools and points are so close to Clovis that often it takes an expert to differentiate them. No expertise is required to differentiate between Clovis and Siberian cultural artifacts, the technology is quite different. The Siberian micro-blade technology dates back over 20,000 years, so...we ought to find microblade tools in a regular trail from the land bridge to Tierra del Fuego, but we don't. PBS ran a special on this, here is an extract

"In 1989, road builders in Alaska's Tanana River valley accidentally uncovered a site called Broken Mammoth. With artifacts dating back 14,000 years, it was the oldest site in Alaska-but it held no Clovis points. Later, another nearby site yielded artifacts a few hundred years older, but still no Clovis points. It did, however, contain microblades and scrapers typical of Siberian and Russian sites going back more than 20,000 years.

For Alaska state archeologist Chuck Holmes these findings suggest that early Alaskans weren't the predecessors to Clovis. And he's not alone.

Dennis Stanford of the Smithsonian Institution spent years in Alaska and found no connection between Siberian artifacts and Clovis technology. His new theory is that Clovis people came not from Siberia, but from Europe. The Solutrean people of France and Spain were their predecessors, he says.


This Clovis spear shaft wrench was made first by the Solutrean people --found in France and Spain.


Shared technology-including bifacial points and a spear shaft wrench made of mammoth bone-and cultural traits suggest the two are related. But, as Stanford explains to Alan, there are two problems with this theory. First, the Solutrean culture is 5,000 years older than Clovis. Second, how did the Solutreans cross the Atlantic Ocean to get to North America?

A site in Virginia called Cactus Hill may hold some of the answers. Artifacts found there have been dated at 18,000 years-too early for Clovis, but just right for Solutrean. Stanford believes a fossil walrus jaw found in the nearby Chesapeake could suggest how the Solutreans made their way to North America. Ice-loving walrus could only have reached the Chesapeake during the height of the last Ice Age, around 15,000-20,000 years ago. Stanford says that's when the Solutreans got here, and they did it by bringing their boats along the ice edge which stretched across the ocean at the time."

http://www.pbs.org/saf/1406/segments/1406-4.htm

The people who made and used Siberian microblade tools did cross into Alaska - but no trail of Clovis tools runs the same way. The heavy concentration of Clovis artifacts on the east coast certainly suggests (can't prove of course) the culture existed there longer than in say Arizona or Montana where the Clovis sites are widely scattered and nowhere commonplace. The microblade culture artifacts don't appear to have traveled far into America, at least the only cultures I know of to use a similar technology are very far from Alaska and very distant from 18,000 BC - (Aztecs, Mayans, &c) so unless their ancestors never left a trace of their passing they seem un-related. The gap of time from the end of the Solutreans to the beginnings of the Cactus Hill culture may not be a gap for that matter, as the exact dates of such ending of a culture and beginning of another can not be known for certain.

The Solutrean solution may not be the answer, but without more evidence of Clovis people having their origins in East Asia, the land bridge route seems untenable - for Clovis.

Cubfan wrote
Whenever I read these sorts of comments, I feel like responding with "just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD!"
Click to expand...

Boy Cubfan when you are right, YOU ARE RIGHT! There is a competing plan being pushed through too, to import African wildlife including elephants, lions and cheetahs, to re-introduce them into the plains of the USA - to "restore" the wildlife variety that existed in the Ice Age. I am not making this up, talk about nitwits - here is one article online
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8983461/

...really makes you wonder about the IQ of folks who push such ideas. I only hope that if they succeed, that they move to live right in amongst the imported critters. :tongue3: :thumbsup:
Oroblanco

PS Thanks for the link Desertmoons, looks to be interesting! :thumbsup:
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Don Jose wrote
I wonder what type of weapons they used in Atlantis / Azlan?? Natural Obsidian site no?
Click to expand...

Hmm this point could actually separate the two legends, for while Plato made no mention of any iron for his Atlantians, (nor does any other ancient source) he does say they had gold, silver, copper and orichalcum, and we don't have any indication from the Aztec legends of Aztlan as to what kinds of weaponry they used. If memory serves, since the Aztecs had obsidian blades we could infer that Aztlan likely had the same level of technology. Plato makes no mention of obsidian in Atlantis, however Aelian's description could be talking of obsidian,


"The Inhabitants are not fewer then two hundred Myriads : they die sometimes of sickness, but this happens very rarely, for most commonly they are kill'd in the Wars by Stones or Wood, for they are invulnerable by Steel."

<Thomas Stanley, translator (1665) Claudius Aelianus His Various History. Book III (pages 63-99)>

There is another mention that I can't seem to find (may be in Proclus?) in which a "black metal" is mentioned that is "very sharp" but also brittle, I believe it to be referring to natural obsidian.
Oroblanco
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA amigo CaptBill!
I don't doubt your word - people do chalk them to make them easier to photograph, which some people find offensive for one reason or another. Your photos came out clear enough, and are interesting indeed. I didn't think you personally had chalked any of the markings.
Oroblanco
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

JOE!
I have an Interesting QUESTION ? :tongue3: ???
I have heard that the UTE/PIUTE Indians, who were living around the "Sunken" Part of
The Great (Calif) Basin (1300-1400AD ?)
When "it" , California, was an Island :tongue3: (according to the Early (1500's) Spanish)
Have mentioned Seeing and Having CONTACT! , with a sea faring people, who, sailed into this area
Who were German ! :tard:
How could have these "People", German, made it into the Pacific Area, when they in fact, live in The Atlantic Area
Was there a Northern ROUTE ?
Over the top of Russia and over then the Bearing Straits ?????
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA amigo CaptBill!

I am taking a wild guess here, so please anyone with correct information please feel free to post.

Cptbill wrote
How could have these "People", German, made it into the Pacific Area, when they in fact, live in The Atlantic Area
Was there a Northern ROUTE ?
Click to expand...

There are several POSSIBLE answers to this, the most obvious would be a simple mis-identification by the Amerindians, encountering Dutch and believing them to be German, which in German is "Deutsch" and sounds very much alike, plus the languages are quite similar. Dutch pirates and privateers were operating along the Pacific coast of the Americas from at least the late 1500's up into the 1700's, and the Gulf of California was used by them almost like a 'private lake' for making raids on Spanish shipping. That is possibility number 1.

Possibility 2 - a Northern Route, that is the fabled "Northwest Passage" - is something that we may see in our own lifetimes, if the Arctic ocean continues to reduce in the amount of ice leaving a stretch of open water right across the top of the continent. At least one historian theorized that this passage was open in historic times, proposing the period of Norse exploration (1000-1300 AD) as one time when the Northwest Passage MIGHT have been open all the way.

Possibility 3 - that the Amerindians were encountering Germanic NORSE seafarers, which is a fairly wild theory in the eyes of historians as they will not grant that any Norse even landed in North America south of Newfoundland, in spite of various evidences that they certainly did. There is a tribe of Indios who live (or lived) on the Pacific coast who were known for frequently having blonde hair and even blue eyes, the Mayo tribe. This same tribe has a legend of origin that would sound very like a ship of Norse became stranded in their area and intermarried with them.

There are other possibilities, and I welcome any corrections and/or additions from anyone with accurate information.
Oroblanco
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Wow - Pippin I didn't think we would see this in our lifetimes. I know the Canadian govt has been taking steps to establish naval stations and communications with an eye to the 'fabled' Northwest Passage eventually becoming open to ships. This could be a "boon" to the economy of many Arctic villages, with a cost as well. The article you posted links to a story on the Sami people, but a little checking confirms your statement is true. The Asian side still is only partially passable but the American side is open all the way.
Oroblanco
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

"Lets look at this from the other direction - where is there any evidence of Clovis having developed in east Asia? Solutrean tools and points are so close to Clovis that often it takes an expert to differentiate them. No expertise is required to differentiate between Clovis and Siberian cultural artifacts, the technology is quite different. The Siberian micro-blade technology dates back over 20,000 years, so...we ought to find microblade tools in a regular trail from the land bridge to Tierra del Fuego, but we don't."

Do you discount the possibility that "Clovis" points were developed on this continent, independent of anything that was created in Europe?

I would imagine that pip could add to this topic.

Thanks in advance,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

JOE:
"make a ripple" :thumbsup:
How about adding THIS! "Ripple" ? ;D
That The Chinese were here, sailing along & down the West Coast,
Then!
Into & along The Pacific Coast of Mexico
Several THOUSAND YEARS AGO ! :tongue3:

:wink: RIPPLE! RIPPLE! ::)
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Cptbil,

I assume you are talking about the fleet of Zhou Man in 1423. That's a little late for the period we were discussing, but this is your topic. If you want to discuss Gavin Menzies theories, I am faintly familiar with "1421".

I don't know if they are teaching his version of history in the Universities yet, but I don't run in those circles....It's possible.

I know there are others here who are familiar with the story, so if you want to direct the "ripple", I would bet a few will be more than willing to jump into the pond.......so to speak. :wink:

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Cactusjumper wrote
Do you discount the possibility that "Clovis" points were developed on this continent, independent of anything that was created in Europe?
Click to expand...

I don't think we can safely conclude that Clovis was developed here, nor that it developed elsewhere and was simply transferred, based on what (relatively little) info we have. It is quite possible that the Clovis culture arose here totally independent of any foreign influence(s). In support of totally independent invention, the proposed ancestor culture (Solutrean) was considerably older, and at best was nearly extinct when Clovis appears. By some dating, there is a gap between the end of Solutrean and the beginning of Clovis, which would make the Solutrean "solution" false on that basis alone.

Chinese visitors to America - hmm this is quite an issue amigos, for there is evidence of some kind of contact, yet did Menzies get it right? Some of his proposed ideas have some flaws, such as his claim that the 1421 fleet introduced chickens to America. So in around a century, across the whole of two continents, these Chinese chickens spread everywhere? I can't accept that notion. Next is his idea that the Chinese exploratory fleets explored virtually the whole of the globe, IN TWO YEARS, when a century later it took THREE to circumnavigate, (Magellan) and again 3 years when Drake did it in secret. I can't see this idea as workable, not with sailing ships as the sheer distances would take more than the alloted two years, plus allowing time for these explorers to have landed and interacted with various peoples along the routes.

I would sooner accept a Chinese visit (or accidental landing) occuring FAR earlier, like in the nearly 'mythical' Shang dynasty which was a Bronze age culture. If I had time this evening I would propose a set of evidences to support the idea of some Shang people having landed in America, but unfortunately I have little time tonight so will put it together another night, if someone wants to see it.
Oroblanco
 

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