CODEBREAKER COMMENTS ABOUT BEALE CIPHERS

[Rebel - KGC]

OK... AND! Those "logs" were RR "WOODEN BEAMS". RR got 'em stacked up along the tracks around here... heading towards Roanoke (for AM Track, I reckon).

 

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[bigscoop]

I won't even toss the true meaning of "Bes" at you...as I'm sure you'll have something worked out for that as well.

Look, I'm going to put something to you that someone put to me long ago as I continued to try to find solution in the ciphers, and his vast knowledge on the subject at hand was simply summed up with this...

"A long cipher of unknown meaning, it is a complete mystery, to this we apply....

Multiple plaintext/source materials.
Multiple languages/dialects/abbreviations of, etc.
Multiple equations.
Question is; how could one NOT arrive at a solution?"

Might I suggest that you take "be" and ale" and apply the same logic and process in reverse, see how many "variations" you can find, assumed and otherwise, for these words and then combine those variations to see how many potential names you can create? I'm sure you've already done this as a means of checking the potential margin of error in your summation, yes?

Look, the more source materials, equations, variations, etc., etc., that we add into the mix the greater the possibilities, avenues, and alternatives we have in creating solutions and remedies. It's that plain and simple and that cold and hard to accept. It was difficult for me to swallow as well but the simple reality is that it is also 100% true and accurate.

 

[legrand]

You're right Bigscoop. But, BESSOP is just a lead in...it swims in the miasma...the peripheral. It's subjective ...not objective. This is the realm that Poe worked in, so we must enter that world to find things that he meant to be found. But, I agree with you and you words above.

There is light at the end of the tunnel.................... follow [ Home ] 20102 will lead you there.

 

[bigscoop]

Point is, take a different poet/writer, apply the same process/processes.....what makes you believe that the same general summations and claims couldn't be resolved, because as you must know, they certainly can be, and eventually would be.

 

[audigger53]

Any of you that have actually solved the 3. Go get the jewels and post a picture from a public library with a new ID on here.
That will shut up everyone here. IMHO

 

[bigscoop]

Any of you that have actually solved the 3. Go get the jewels and post a picture from a public library with a new ID on here.
That will shut up everyone here. IMHO

....what happens if they all do that?

 

[audigger53]

Then they can all yell at each other in the cave.
Actually the best test on the "Rubies" and Emeralds is to use an old Wheat penny and try and scratch the stone. Sapphires, Rubies, and Emeralds are at 9 for hardness, Diamonds 10. The English Royal family still resists testing the "Ruby" in the Crown as many believe it is a Garnet.

 

[Old Silver]

Yeah, I'm not going to bother with that. I suggest Paul Stewart's book for anyone who thinks the Beale Story could possibly be true, on its face. Just ignore the whole Masonic Allegory second half of the book.

Can you highlight a couple of those reasons why the Beale story CAN'T be true? Maybe just give a hint, so you won't be violating any copyright. I've heard some strange reasons on here, so I probably won't be surprised at anything you post. I can think of reasons why the Beale story is probably not true, but the reasons most people give are laughable. I say be careful of anyone who says a thing CAN'T be true, unless they can show proof. No proof has been shown here, either for true, or for false.

 

[franklin]

Can you highlight a couple of those reasons why the Beale story CAN'T be true? Maybe just give a hint, so you won't be violating any copyright. I've heard some strange reasons on here, so I probably won't be surprised at anything you post. I can think of reasons why the Beale story is probably not true, but the reasons most people give are laughable. I say be careful of anyone who says a thing CAN'T be true, unless they can show proof. No proof has been shown here, either for true, or for false.

There are several reasons why the Beale Story can not be true but there is not one good reason with documented proof to prove that the story actually happened.

Examine the 23 page story of the Job Print Pamphlet hundreds of mistakes by the author. Some posters take those mistakes as a beginning point to prove the story is true.

C2 solved by accident by the author using the DOI has glaring discrepancies. First the author numbers the DOI wrong from cipher number 480. The author does not see this mistake when he deciphers C2. Since he has 480 listed two times, he goes down and gets cipher number 817 for the letter "V" in "I have deposited" He should have gotten 807 but he gets 817 because he has 807 listed two times.

When the author writes out the plain text he can not even write down his correct decipherment. He puts "one thousand" down for the plain text of "ten hundred" He puts down "three thousand eight hundred" down when it actually says "thirty eight hundred" I know these values are the same but the plain text is not plain text because the author is using his writer's mind instead of a decoder decoding a message. This makes the work nothing but "FICTION"

There are hundreds of other reasons. Such as the iron box missing, TJB's letters missing, C1, C2 and C3 code papers missing, the author's name missing, a copy of the Job Print Pamphlet at the Library of Congress missing, no newspaper listing any of the party traveling to and from Sante Fe, no newspaper article of the 30 party associates missing or presumed dead. The list goes on and on and on. No records in the Spanish Archives of the party of 30 coming into Sante Fe, staying in Sante Fe, leaving Sante Fe or returning purchasing mining supplies. The story was for profit not for a real treasure.

 

[Old Silver]

There are several reasons why the Beale Story can not be true but there is not one good reason with documented proof to prove that the story actually happened.

Examine the 23 page story of the Job Print Pamphlet hundreds of mistakes by the author. Some posters take those mistakes as a beginning point to prove the story is true.

C2 solved by accident by the author using the DOI has glaring discrepancies. First the author numbers the DOI wrong from cipher number 480. The author does not see this mistake when he deciphers C2. Since he has 480 listed two times, he goes down and gets cipher number 817 for the letter "V" in "I have deposited" He should have gotten 807 but he gets 817 because he has 807 listed two times.

When the author writes out the plain text he can not even write down his correct decipherment. He puts "one thousand" down for the plain text of "ten hundred" He puts down "three thousand eight hundred" down when it actually says "thirty eight hundred" I know these values are the same but the plain text is not plain text because the author is using his writer's mind instead of a decoder decoding a message. This makes the work nothing but "FICTION"

There are hundreds of other reasons. Such as the iron box missing, TJB's letters missing, C1, C2 and C3 code papers missing, the author's name missing, a copy of the Job Print Pamphlet at the Library of Congress missing, no newspaper listing any of the party traveling to and from Sante Fe, no newspaper article of the 30 party associates missing or presumed dead. The list goes on and on and on. No records in the Spanish Archives of the party of 30 coming into Sante Fe, staying in Sante Fe, leaving Sante Fe or returning purchasing mining supplies. The story was for profit not for a real treasure.

So, a writer of a true story would never make mistakes? And what mistakes are you referring to? I know a lot of "mistakes" have been reported that ended up not being mistakes at all.
I know there are strange things about the way the decipherment is worded, but you can't call that proof of any kind, either for or against. There is a pretty good chance that the newspaper edited the story, because that's what newspapers do with published works. Also, writers themselves edit their own works, so there's nothing necessarily strange about that. That means there were changes in the way things were worded, but it's not proof of anything, for or against. To know for sure what was in the writer's mind, we would have to be omniscient, and we are certainly not that.

Things missing means the story is false? There are records of unnamed parties during the time of Beale, in the right area. You have posted about some of them yourself. Does the fact that these parties are not named mean they didn't exist? No, they existed, and they remain unnamed. That just goes to show how that historically, we weren't as particular at record keeping as we are now. Also, much get's lost and destroyed with the passing of time.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Any of you that have actually solved the 3. Go get the jewels and post a picture from a public library with a new ID on here.
That will shut up everyone here. IMHO

Nah... such can be FAKED! Heh...

 

[ECS]

... ECS...I'm sure the Schiller Institute are not idiots. Everything is not a conspiracy. Which I might add is just a word, given little respect, that means two or more people thinking or acting in tandem, essentially. It's telling, also, when Rebel just disappears when the fact machine begins to whir. I would never reveal on this thread, to the people that post here, the Truth of the Beale Papers, as there is political agenda here and it stinks. The Truth will come out, but not in this forum...

Sorry to disappoint, but there is NO "political agenda" on these threads.
The Schiller Institute may not be idiots, but they DO have a political agenda and their information is highly questionable.

 

[ECS]

Point is, take a different poet/writer, apply the same process/processes.....what makes you believe that the same general summations and claims couldn't be resolved, because as you must know, they certainly can be, and eventually would be.

H P Lovecraft would provide a different take on the ciphers.

 

[franklin]

So, a writer of a true story would never make mistakes? And what mistakes are you referring to? I know a lot of "mistakes" have been reported that ended up not being mistakes at all.
I know there are strange things about the way the decipherment is worded, but you can't call that proof of any kind, either for or against. There is a pretty good chance that the newspaper edited the story, because that's what newspapers do with published works. Also, writers themselves edit their own works, so there's nothing necessarily strange about that. That means there were changes in the way things were worded, but it's not proof of anything, for or against. To know for sure what was in the writer's mind, we would have to be omniscient, and we are certainly not that.

Things missing means the story is false? There are records of unnamed parties during the time of Beale, in the right area. You have posted about some of them yourself. Does the fact that these parties are not named mean they didn't exist? No, they existed, and they remain unnamed. That just goes to show how that historically, we weren't as particular at record keeping as we are now. Also, much get's lost and destroyed with the passing of time.

Old Silver, I will respond to you since you are the only poster on topic. First we do not keep better records today than we did back then. Records were better kept in 1885 than they are today. Look at the estate records, Wills and Deeds they are recorded more accurate than today.

The DOi used to encipher C1, C2 and C3 was a DOI of 1872. No way could it have been enciphered in 1822. Also when the author deciphered C2 he went down and got the 817th word for the letter "V" instead of the actual cipher 807 that the code paper called for. If you can not see that this made the Code Papers made up in or around 1885 instead of 1822 then you keep on looking for this impossible treasure of Bedford County, Virginia to find or you can do as others look for it in Mo. or Pa. or some other state. Myself I am dropping the whole story and chalking it off as fiction. I have also chalked off two other treasures that never will be found. One is that of General John Singleton Mosby, I proved that it was impossible for that story to happen also. There was an armored car robbery near Muncie, Indiana, I proved that one was made up also. There are others but if you think it is still a treasure to find go for it.

 

[Old Silver]

Old Silver, I will respond to you since you are the only poster on topic. First we do not keep better records today than we did back then. Records were better kept in 1885 than they are today. Look at the estate records, Wills and Deeds they are recorded more accurate than today.

The DOi used to encipher C1, C2 and C3 was a DOI of 1872. No way could it have been enciphered in 1822. Also when the author deciphered C2 he went down and got the 817th word for the letter "V" instead of the actual cipher 807 that the code paper called for. If you can not see that this made the Code Papers made up in or around 1885 instead of 1822 then you keep on looking for this impossible treasure of Bedford County, Virginia to find or you can do as others look for it in Mo. or Pa. or some other state. Myself I am dropping the whole story and chalking it off as fiction. I have also chalked off two other treasures that never will be found. One is that of General John Singleton Mosby, I proved that it was impossible for that story to happen also. There was an armored car robbery near Muncie, Indiana, I proved that one was made up also. There are others but if you think it is still a treasure to find go for it.

I'm not talking about 1885, but 1817-1822. Remember those parties who remain unidentified? How could it be that a party of men existed, yet today are unidentified. We have no idea who they were. It's true that the latter part of the 1800s has well kept records, for the most part, though many have been destroyed by fires, etc.

All I know is that the DOI was written in the 1700's. Which version was used to encipher the Beale codes, I don't know. I didn't say no mistakes were made, I only say that mistakes does not equal hoax.
As for my looking for the treasure, you might be surprised to learn that I have never looked for the Beale treasure, and likely never will. I don't even say I believe in the treasure. I most certainly don't say I know the treasure is real, because that statement would require irrefutable proof. And the same can be said of stating that you know it's not true. What one believes is one thing, but to claim to know something for sure, well, we need proof for that.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

H P Lovecraft would provide a different take on the ciphers.

I LOVED HPL's stuff, years ago...

 

[franklin]

Last try. Just presume for a moment the author made the story up. He would not have made those mistakes if he were actually solving something encoded in 1822. A cipher code if made would have been gone over and over by TJB if it actually happened because he was ensuring the welfare of 30 other associates. The author made mistakes because he did not prove read a story he was telling. If he had numbered the DOI correctly he would not have come up on the letter "V" for 807. He needed the letter "V" if he had done it correctly he would have gotten a completely different letter from "807" It proves the whole story was made up by the author. Of course when he gave this story to JBW he told him it was a true story and JBW passed that on to Clayton Hart. The story is fabricated if not you find something or anything that proves 30 men went west and brought back over eight thousand pounds of treasure without anyone knowing about it, without any of it's members telling anyone else or any of the 30 men being reported missing out west. Some parties only got attacked like the Glenn Party, it was reported in the newspapers in 1822 and later when they showed up it was again reported. Where is it reported that 30 men were killed. The bodies or remains would have been found and reported yet nothing. The Spanish Government recorded nothing in the their archives simply because it never happened.

 

[Old Silver]

Last try. Just presume for a moment the author made the story up. He would not have made those mistakes if he were actually solving something encoded in 1822. A cipher code if made would have been gone over and over by TJB if it actually happened because he was ensuring the welfare of 30 other associates. The author made mistakes because he did not prove read a story he was telling. If he had numbered the DOI correctly he would not have come up on the letter "V" for 807. He needed the letter "V" if he had done it correctly he would have gotten a completely different letter from "807" It proves the whole story was made up by the author. Of course when he gave this story to JBW he told him it was a true story and JBW passed that on to Clayton Hart. The story is fabricated if not you find something or anything that proves 30 men went west and brought back over eight thousand pounds of treasure without anyone knowing about it, without any of it's members telling anyone else or any of the 30 men being reported missing out west. Some parties only got attacked like the Glenn Party, it was reported in the newspapers in 1822 and later when they showed up it was again reported. Where is it reported that 30 men were killed. The bodies or remains would have been found and reported yet nothing. The Spanish Government recorded nothing in the their archives simply because it never happened.

We don't know who made the mistakes. As I said, it seems as though the story has been edited. I can't say who changed it, because I don't know. Numbering the DOI incorrectly would cause a discrepancy, as would decoding it incorrectly. Since these guys were human, just like us, I don't know how that can necessarily mean anything. If everything were perfect, then people would probably say it's a hoax, because the author went to great pains to make it so. And they might would be right about that. The fact that the papers show mistakes is one reason to think they might have some truth to them. You haven't said what other mistakes you refer to.

The fact remains that there were parties spoken of that are not named. You seem to think this is not possible, yet we have that very thing. Now if that can happen to one party, then why couldn't it happen to another party? Besides, we don't know but what one of those unnamed parties might have been the Beale party. These unnamed parties existed, and that fact remains.
May I post what you said to me in a PM?

 

[franklin]

Why not. But what I am trying to explain to you is the author found the letter he was looking for because he made a mistake. That would have been that TJB would have had to make the same counting mistake and that is not possible. There is only one other alternative and that is the author made the story up. You can find history on everything in the book, my book was the same 99.99 percent of the history was correct still the entire story was fiction. You can take history and make a wonderful book that seems like it happened when it did not. I'm sorry you can believe if you want. I have put in over 50 years on this and it was a huge waste of time, money and effort. You can pursue it anyway you want to but pay attention to the warning by the author. That is about the best truth he told in the entire pamphlet.

 

[Old Silver]

Only 3 weeks ago you said you believed that Benjamin Cooper was the guide of the Beale party.