Can anyone identify or date this cannon

Joe hunter

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I’m not sure if anyone has kept track of my cannon search but I’m hoping i have enough pieces to Figure it out now. ImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1607803115.824258.webpImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1607803162.876628.webpImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1607803174.679188.webpImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1607803191.746629.webpImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1607803227.047807.webpImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1607803251.065562.webpthe length is 43in, if I laid it out correctly.
It has a 2in bore .I’m going to do my best to respond promptly to any questions.Thanks
 

The apparently white paint on it makes me think someone had it painted and sitting in their front yard or the like at one time. Maybe it was some old signal cannon they had on display for awhile and then took it off into the woods to test fire and stuffed more then just powder in it and it blew to pieces? I'm looking at the actual cast iron where it broke and it appears quite porous, which obviously would make it fairly weak.

Pretty bad paint job for display purposes.
But I would be fine if we proved it was a signal cannon or the like,but the way this blew up I’m thinking not.ImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1608001415.161395.webp
 

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And maybe it's not all that porous either, i can't tell from the pics for sure.

Yeah, that paint there looks like it was sitting in the barn when someone was whitewashing something and painted the cannon too.
 

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Ok these pics are one piece.this was one of my original finds with the first barrel piece,Maybe you noticed the color difference.I cleaned this like three years ago baked in the oven at low temperature,Then treated it with renaissance wax so it wouldn’t break down any further.ImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1608001872.659942.webpImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1608001890.323075.webpImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1608001908.943190.webpImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1608001921.475606.webp
 

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Joe... it occurred to me... another place to check for possible markings is muzzle.

This was one area that Napoleonic cannon were marked.

Also... something else occurred to me... this COULD BE... a 1/2 scale model.

Not saying it is... but I think it should be explored... also I need some close ups of the barrel and any signs of "change" in it... such as a thicker to thinner etc... or any reinforcement rings / extra metal etc.

Anyway... check the muzzle.

Napoleon gun muzzle II.webp
 

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this COULD BE... a 1/2 scale 1857

This is a pic of an even smaller version...

scale-model-1857-12-pounder-napoleon_1_614306a55b39ac0e0e754f7feede6e54.webp
 

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Good morning I posted some metal pieces I didn’t think were cannon related here they are again I’ll take more pics after work. I’m also taking tomorrow off for a cannon related illness.lolImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1608033446.787126.webpImageUploadedByTreasureNet.com1608033484.743541.webpI thought they might be related as there broken and scattered the same way .
 

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Joe Wrote:
Has anyone ever heard a story about British troops burying a cannon and some gold during a retreat around my area.(north of Rome Utica NY

Hey Joe what county are you in here in N.Y. ?....what county is Rome in ?
Gary
 

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Someone mentioned earlier, maybe the pieces aren't all to the same cannon . Maybe too, some of those hardware pieces aren't a cannon at all, hence why some of the pieces appear to be really old and others newer? I know i'm being Captain Obvious. Just spit balling as i eat lunch....
 

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GoDeep, asked me to comment. Unfortunately, as is often the case nowadays, I haven't been feeling well enough to write "detailed" replies to posts... which is why I haven't previously responded about this interesting Artillery find.

1- Contrary what some people in this discussion seem to believe, not even nearly all of the Historical cannons were Military. For example, there were many hundreds of "armed merchantmen" ships during the Colonial Era. For example, the famous East India Tea Company. Do you really think the pirates got all their cannons by capturing British/Spanish/French/Dutch NAVY WARSHIPS?

Also, many-many cannons were cast at privately-owned iron foundries, for use by the American Colonists. Most of those were "small-bore"... such as 1"-caliber Pivot Guns, etc.

All of that being said, the "privately made" larger-size cannons (1-Pounder/2.0"-bore and larger) tended to copy the the size of the Military calibers, so that the foundries wouldn't have to manufacture "unusual" sizes of cannonballs to supply both the Military and Civilian cannon owners.

Joe_hunter reported that his badly-burst cannon's caliber (bore diameter) is 2 inches. As another astute poster has already pointed out, that size is the Military's 1-Pounder caliber. Although 1-Pounders had become obsolete by the time of the civil war, the US Army still possessed enough of them to list 1-Pounders in the US Ordnance Manual of 1861.

Please pardon all that Historical Artillery trivia recitation. My point is, Joe_hunter's cannon corresponds to a widely used Military AND Civilian caliber... and that caliber was widely used from the Colonial Era into the early-1800s. It could be British, and it could be US Colonial Army or State Militia, OR a non-official military group, such as a town's local defense. Being made of LOW-QUALITY iron rather than brass, I lean toward it being early-American.

I emphasized the words LOW-QUALITY because of the "very-large-grained" look of the iron in the broken-open fragments. (As Smokeythecat called it, earlier in this discussion, "flawed iron" -- which was a major problem for the artillerymen of the Colonial American Army. The lower the quality of iron, the more brittle it is, and the more likely to burst into multiple pieces when subjected to excessive internal explosion.

On the subject of "multiple pieces"... I've never seen a cannon burst into so many pieces, fracturing to bits all the way from its muzzle (front end) to its breech (back end). As I indicated above, iron is more brittle than brass, which is why in the Colonial Era most Military cannons were made of brass. When a brass or high-quality iron cannon bursts, it usually ruptures only in the back half, where the firing propellant powder-charge was placed. This is clearly seen in the wonderful photos helpfully posted by AARC. (Thank you very much.)

Alan M said (on the 1st page of this 6-page discussion, "it is probable that it was overloaded intentionally in order to destroy it." Alan is correct. The fact that Joe_hunter's cannon burst into fragments literally from one end to the other strongly indicates deliberate destruction, to prevent it from being used after capture by enemy forces. To burst it so completely, it must have been packed with gunpowder topped with probably about 6 solid cannonballs. Joe Hunter was correct, it wasn't broken to pieces with a sledgehammer, "There’s no impact signs."

Relevent Chair said, "Resistance to pressure creates more pressure." Putting the weight of 6 solid balls in front of the powder charge would create enormous resistance. So, that was the typical method for destroying a cannon.

I should also mention, AARC made a valid point about "inspection" of cannons (also called "Proofing")... but:
National Armies and State Militia required that cannons be rigorously tested before being issued to troops. Private-foundry cannons manufactured for sale to civilians did not have that requirement.

The total lack of manufacturer's markings or other ID on a cannon can mean anything from modern-Reproduction to Wealthy-Man's Estate Lawn Cannon to Colonial manufacture for Militia OR "civilian merchant-ship use."

All of the above being said... the presence of "white paint" on at least one fragment of the cannon "could" suggest it wasn't destroyed during the Revolution or War Of 1812. That paint is the big mystery to me.

The white paint is "splotchy" and seems to be on only one fragment. (Joe_hunter posted a photo of it, and he did not say other fragments have the paint.) So perhaps this old 1-Pounder cannon was in somebody's barn for decades, and its owner decided to have some fun by destroying it. Or maybe that one fragment with paint was on the ground's surface and somehow somebody spilled paint on it. Why don't the rest of the fragments also have that white paint?

Those are my scattered observations and thoughts. I hope some of them they helpful to some folks. Please pardon if they are less than completely coherent. At my age, medical maladies (and medications) take a toll.
 

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Thank you for your insight and time Cannonball guy, your reputation is well deserved!

Just to clarify, it's Joe Hunters find, i just made a lot of comments about my thoughts:-)
 

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Joe Wrote:
Has anyone ever heard a story about British troops burying a cannon and some gold during a retreat around my area.(north of Rome Utica NY

Hey Joe what county are you in here in N.Y. ?....what county is Rome in ?
Gary

Onieda county
 

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Thank you cannon ball guy.I believe the cannon was painted completely white but the bottom may not be very thorough(the white makes me think camouflage in a cold by winter 🥶 that is also why I think the iron may have been more brittle-10 to -20 degrees makes everything brittle.
I know I also am hopeful for a real deal combat misfire.
Thanks everyone once again.
 

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The finder of the cannonbarrel fragments, GoDeep, asked me to comment. Unfortunately, as is often the case nowadays, I haven't been feeling well enough to write "detailed" replies to posts... which is why I haven't previously responded about this interesting Artillery find.

1- Contrary what some people in this discussion seem to believe, not even nearly all of the Historical cannons were Military. For example, there were many hundreds of "armed merchantmen" ships during the Colonial Era. For example, the famous East India Tea Company. Do you really think the pirates got all their cannons by capturing British/Spanish/French/Dutch NAVY WARSHIPS?

Also, many-many cannons were cast at privately-owned iron foundries, for use by the American Colonists. Most of those were "small-bore"... such as 1"-caliber Pivot Guns, etc.

All of that being said, the "privately made" larger-size cannons (1-Pounder/2.0"-bore and larger) tended to copy the the size of the Military calibers, so that the foundries wouldn't have to manufacture "unusual" sizes of cannonballs to supply both the Military and Civilian cannon owners.

GoDeep reported that his badly-burst cannon's caliber (bore diameter) is 2 inches. As another astute poster has already pointed out, that size is the Military's 1-Pounder caliber. Although 1-Pounders had become obsolete by the time of the civil war, the US Army still possessed enough of them to list 1-Pounders in the US Ordnance Manual of 1861.

Please pardon all that Historical Artillery trivia recitation. My point is, GoDeep's cannon corresponds to a widely used Military AND Civilian caliber... and that caliber was widely used from the Colonial Era into the early-1800s. It could be British, and it could be US Colonial Army or State Militia, OR a non-official military group, such as a town's local defense. Being made of LOW-QUALITY iron rather than brass, I lean toward it being early-American.

I emphasized the words LOW-QUALITY because of the "very-large-grained" look of the iron in the broken-open fragments. (As Smokeythecat called it, earlier in this discussion, "flawed iron" -- which was a major problem for the artillerymen of the Colonial American Army. The lower the quality of iron, the more brittle it is, and the more likely to burst into multiple pieces when subjected to excessive internal explosion.

On the subject of "multiple pieces"... I've never seen a cannon burst into so many pieces, fracturing to bits all the way from its muzzle (front end) to its breech (back end). As I indicated above, iron is more brittle than brass, which is why in the Colonial Era most Military cannons were made of brass. When a brass or high-quality iron cannon bursts, it usually ruptures only in the back half, where the firing propellant powder-charge was placed. This is clearly seen in the wonderful photos helpfully posted by AARC. (Thank you very much.)

Alan M said (on the 1st page of this 6-page discussion, "it is probable that it was overloaded intentionally in order to destroy it." Alan is correct. The fact that GoDeep's cannon burst into fragments literally from one end to the other strongly indicates deliberate destruction, to prevent it from being used after capture by enemy forces. To burst it so completely, it must have been packed with gunpowder topped with probably about 6 solid cannonballs. Joe Hunter was correct, it wasn't broken to pieces with a sledgehammer, "There’s no impact signs."

Relevent Chair said, "Resistance to pressure creates more pressure." Putting the weight of 6 solid balls in front of the powder charge would create enormous resistance. So, that was the typical method for destroying a cannon.

I should also mention, AARC made a valid point about "inspection" of cannons (also called "Proofing")... but:
National Armies and State Militia required that cannons be rigorously tested before being issued to troops. Private-foundry cannons manufactured for sale to civilians did not have that requirement.

The total lack of manufacturer's markings or other ID on a cannon can mean anything from modern-Reproduction to Wealthy-Man's Estate Lawn Cannon to Colonial manufacture for Militia OR "civilian merchant-ship use."

All of the above being said... the presence of "white paint" on at least one fragment of the cannon "could" suggest it wasn't destroyed during the Revolution or War Of 1812. That paint is the big mystery to me.

The white paint is "splotchy" and seems to be on only one fragment. (GoDeep posted a photo of it, and he did not say other fragments have the paint.) So perhaps this old 1-Pounder cannon was in somebody's barn for decades, and its owner decided to have some fun by destroying it. Or maybe that one fragment with paint was on the ground's surface and somehow somebody spilled paint on it. Why don't the rest of the fragments also have that white paint?

Those are my scattered observations and thoughts. I hope some of them they helpful to some folks. Please pardon if they are less than completely coherent. At my age, medical maladies (and medications) take a toll.

Good to see ya chime in finally CBG... but as usual... we seem / will differ in knowledges... which is ok... but lets just address the "brass" VS Iron.

They did not use brass... It was called "brass"... but it wasn't actually / technically "brass"... its content had tin which then makes it "bronze"... hence "Gun bronze".
it was not the structural integrity that won the bronze over iron... it was weight... it is lighter and doesn't rust.

Just had to at least set that straight. :P

" Iron is superior to bronze because it is much harder, which allows it to maintain an edge and much more effective against bronze weapons and armor."
hence... why you don't see edged weapons made from brass... OR bronze... which again is nothing more than brass with a little more tin to make it better.

PS... And I still will go with a scale model / re-pop... until further notice.

PSS... CBG... Hope you feel better ... we need ya around here :)
 

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GoDeep wrote:
> Thank you for your insight and time Cannonball guy, your reputation is well deserved!

You're welcome. Sorry this is one of the occasions when I do not have "the definite answer."

> Just to clarify, it's Joe Hunters find, i just made a lot of comments about my thoughts:-)

See, I told you I've been sick. ;-)
 

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Edited...

Gotta really not drink and type :P

Hope ya feel better CBG.
 

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The picture below is the extent of my knowledge about "Cannon".

cannon.webp

Oh, and also he was fat. I know that.
 

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Hey Flurries... Happy Birthday.
 

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Thank ya AARC, I'm 54 and my oldest son points out I've been alive in 7 decades now.....Ouch he called me OLD!

Ahhh just be happy... and I presume your oldest hasn't had any kids yet... then you would be "Grandpa".

:P
 

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