Buckle Button And Axe

[artyfacts]

Spent five hours on a new site today with a large cellar hole, on a hill, in the woods, along the shoreline. I think the site was worked by someone with an older machine. All of iron was left behind, big stuff and small between 8 and 15 inches deep. The non ferrous items were found next to the iron. When I walked up to the site the first thing I dug was a broken axe head and found the button in the same hole I thought the place was going to be loaded. I was wrong it was already picked. I'm still happy with the iron and the few other items I found. The buckle was found on the top of the log splitter in the same hole. The buzzer is the third I have dug in two different sites in the last month. The suspender buckle still has some gilt left on it and its a little on the fancy side. The brass item is two inches long. I know it was nailed to the tip of something. Any Ideas? The little iron spike could it be to a spear or is it a awl? The full axe was sweet, 7 1/2 inches long. Its going to clean up nice, I like finding axes. Lantern parts, scythe, draw knife and -----the ticks are out. Arty

 

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[Steve in PA]

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=3368&cat=all
Not a perfect match but these leather mounts, went on belts & horses are 17th C. (I find quite a lot of that type & hundreds of other designs)

The rosette is obviously English and I'm sure the clipped corner plate is too.

You mean the plate is English Confederate right?
[/quote]

I don't believe for a second that Confederates used these plates. Howard Couch has one in the "Early" section at the back of his Civil War Relic book (page 228). It is not clipped corner and has 8 hooks, but is inscribed with fancy script initials like mine. He calls it the Shoulder Belt Plate of Josua Frye, who died on campaign during the French and Indian war, since it was found at his old homesite. When I sent mine in to Mark Parker, he responded that they were trunk plates and that a similar one was mis-indentified in a well known civil war reference book. Wonder which book he was talking about.....

 

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[artyfacts]

I do not think you stated it was Mr Parker who identified it. I wanted to talk to George Juno. Its seems like lots of people wanted and did speak to the gentleman. Stay tuned for tomorrows version of the trunk syndrome shared by many. I will be releasing my newest and latest foot in mouth news. Don't forget to stay tuned... Arty

I sent pictures of mine to Mark Parker of Western & Eastern Treasures magazine which he forwarded to George Juno, who identified it as an 18th century trunk plate.

 

[Steve in PA]

I do not think you stated it was Mr Parker who identified it. I wanted to talk to George Juno. Its seems like lots of people wanted and did speak to the gentleman. Stay tuned for tomorrows version of the trunk syndrome shared by many. I will be releasing my newest and latest foot in mouth news. Don't forget to stay tuned... Arty

I sent pictures of mine to Mark Parker of Western & Eastern Treasures magazine which he forwarded to George Juno, who identified it as an 18th century trunk plate.

You're right. Mark Parker forwarded my pictures to George Juno Sr. who ID'd it as an 18th Century trunk plate worth about $150 (probably because of the fancy engraving on mine). However, I am pretty sure it was Mark Parker who mentioned a similar plate mis-identified in a Civil War reference book. I wish I could find his letter. I know I have it somewhere. Thanks for running with this one. I have been working on it off and on since 1994 and am 90% convinced that they are trunk plates. I am 100% convinced they are not Civil War period. I have seen a plain faced one for sale as a cross belt plate at a Civil War show, but I also saw harness hardware for sale as sword hangers at the same show

 

[artyfacts]

These following proofs are reason to re-examine. I have talked to 14 restorers in three countries. The biggest restorers that have worked on and viewed tens of thousands of trunks through out the country, New England, and across the continent. If there was going to be a plate found on a trunk like the plate I dug, what a better place to start, and still not one surviving trunk with this plate anywhere... No picture available anywhere in the world. Not one viewed by the biggest restorers and trunk makers. I really don’t feel that this is going to happen though. I believe it would have happened by now. In speaking with all of the these restorers and especially Steve Freede of The Trunk Shoppe, Marvin Miller, and Pat Morse, I described the plate and other plates with full descriptions and photos. I found that this is not a plate that adorned old trunks. The plates on trunks that carried the personalized initial or initials were smaller and thinner brass and all descript. Some of these plates were sewn in-between leather. These trunks were high end and made to order. The six hooked, cleated, pined, pronged clipped edge plates are not associated with any trunk viewed by any trunk maker or restorer to date. I do not know where the trunk plate theory began but, I'm glad the world isn’t flat. I’m including some of my edited emails to and from Steve Freede owner of The Trunk Shoppe, a Master Trunk builder. I'm also including an email sent to me by Marvin Miller an elite restorer, and a phone quote from Pat Morse, trunk restorer and author. Every party I have contacted had a complete and accurate description of the plate in question along with pictures. I do think its time for collectors and interested parties to rethink this clipped edge plate and its place.

Hi Art, I have worked on trunks for 40 years now and have seen thousands of trunks from all time periods. I lived in New England for about 12 years and since that is where the majority of early American trunks, especially 18th century trunks were made I also saw many from that time period. Now for the past 10 years I have done extensive research on trunks with the internet, so that has exposed me to many more trunks that I would otherwise not have seen. I personally have never seen a plate of this type on a trunk made prior to approximately 1830-1840. Earlier trunks, American or European, that I have seen never had a large leather lock cover and have not had any plate of this type on them. In fact, it was VERY common to have the owners initials put on the trunk with small brass tacks, so why would they need an ID plate? And they did not usually have leather lock covers so that doesn't make sense either. Then around the 1830's to 1850's the small brass tacks used for the initials on trunks seemed to go out of style. The brass tacks that were used were larger and not used to put the initials on the trunks. Also the large leather lock covers started appearing on trunks around the 1840's and became more common on trunks during the 1850's to 60's and were held in place with leather straps and small metal buckles. I've seen thousands of trunks from this time period and have only seen a couple trunks that had small brass plates attached to the leather covers (or anywhere else) and each one had the name engraved on it and measured only about 1 1/4" by 2 - 2 1/2". The brass was not extremely thick but was strong and not easily bent. The brass name plates used by trunk makers were not like this item, but were cast brass and had the trunk maker's name and location on them. These appeared on trunks by a number of makers from about the 1870's to 1880's and were usually attached on the top front with small nails or sometimes rivets. I personally don't believe this was a trunk item, but of course I cannot rule it out completely. But it does seem that if these were used on trunks during the 18th century or even early 19th century, that I would have seen more examples of them by now. Thanks,
Marvin Miller ThisOldTrunk.com

Spoke with Pat Morse by phone. Pat is the author of three trunk books and has already responded earlier in this thread http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,387033.0.html . When told of the response about a trunk being viewed with a plate like the one I dug being attached to a leather lock cover, he stated , “I have never viewed one, I just don’t see it“.

My edited emails to and from Steve Freede,

Steve,
Thank you for your reply. And sorry your under the weather. I really wanted to ask you about these types of plates, whether descript or nondescript that you have personally viewed. The plates I'm asking about were attached to leather flaps that covered lock mechanisms on travel trunks Could you give me a time line for these trunks with the attached leather lock guard and plate, along with the approximate sizes and shapes of these plates, and how they were mounted, (six hooks, four hooks, glued) ? Are there any photos or a complete trunk anywhere that can be viewed? I have talked to restorers around the world and searched the internet I have not been able to find one trunk with this type of plate attached to a leather lock guard. Of all the restorers not a one has viewed such a trunk except for you. That is why it was imperative that I contact you with these questions. The sizes range from 2 x 3 inches and up to 2 1/2 x 3 1/2 inches, all sand cast brass. The hooks are varied, sizes 1/2 to 1 inch long some tapered some straight. Six hooks and four. Steve and Katie, I thank you both for your time and expertise, and a speedy recovery to you Steve, eat an apple.
Best Regards,
Art

Are there any initials or any other markings on it? I've seen several engraved plates attached to lock flaps. some were round and sewn in-between to pieces of leather. the top layer cut to make the bezel to hold it in. Most I have viewed were in saddleback trunks or campaign trunks. Saddlebacks from the last 1/4 1700 into 1800's There again depends on the maker, his skill, his tools, and his available material. Campaign trunks would be much older. Am I getting closer to helping?
Steve

Steve,
No, almost all of the plates have no markings whatsoever. Yes you are getting closer. Did you eat your apple? Any input is new and very well received at that. Makes allot of sense having it sewn between the leather so as not to scratch the lock set or the top of the chest after putting that much work into it. Were any of the plates you viewed clipped cornered and not sewn in and the hook system used? The nondescript plates that have been found are like tanks, I could not bend one by hand if I wanted to. Maybe I should eat an apple. The hooks on the plate I found were not flattened, but rounded over and sticking up over a 1/4 inch away from the back of the plate. This is what is bothering me about the plate I found being used on a trunk flap. If it went through one piece of leather and had to be backed to keep the hooks from scratching the lock set the hooks would of had to of been flattened to also except the leather backing. I'm including a long hooked variety of plate for your viewing. Thanks for your time.
Best Regards,
Art

How are the hooks attached to the plate? Are they actually a nail that is peened into a countersink? Time would rust or corrode them to the point that it may be undetectable unless you specifically look for it. Thick bull hide was used for lock flaps, belts, sheaths etc. the annealed steal pins were peened and rolled back into the leather. Square shank brass tacks were used in thinner leather for strength and decoration and were set the same way.
-------- Are you sure these came from trunks?
Is there any sign of wear on the edges?


The six hooks are part of the casting, a one shot deal. And yes there is one corner on the plate that I found that was slightly worn over the others. Thanks for throwing the apple back at me, it was a good laugh.

Art


Ok So Sand cast begins to ring bells.
It appears to me that if there is any other marks/ file marks, minuscule humps a slight thickening in the back we are going to get an exact idea on how they were made. All sand castings must have a sprue and one or more risers. The sprue is where the molten material is poured in. A larger single shaft, min. 2 times larger then the total of the risers. the risers are evenly spaced to allow air to escape, even flow of material and to tell when the mold was completely full. Sprue was later cut off and filed. that's the mark we are looking for on the back, probably center. It is possible the filed corner is where the sprue was. But the larger the part the harder it is to get the material to flow all the way through. But I'm no expert.But it does explain the difference in the number of cleats. The reason I asked about wear marks is I seem to remember from my childhood old logging harnesses, not fancy, well but built to last and they would have rub plates in crucial areas. sometimes even wrapped with wire to protect the leather from excessive wear. Just a Thought. Hope it helps. If nothing else it's thought provoking!
Steve

Steve ,

Provoking to me means more homework and research. Thanks for the idea and the mini lesson on sand casting, neat stuff. I do smelt lead every now and then to make replacement lead came sections and other parts on old stained glass windows. Not the same but I understand what you are saying. I'm a fourth generation stained glass artist. My great great grandfather worked for Tiffany making his wonderful windows. They do say that age is just a number, the only problem with that is the number is always changing. The info you are giving me is invaluable and very helpful indeed. Well its time for the question of the day, Did you eat your apple? I hear where we are going and its away from trunks. I hope I'm not putting you on the spot but its important hearing it from an expert in your very specialized field. I would like to know if you think these nondescript, six or four cleated clipped corner plates are part of a trunk? If you care to elaborate on the why and why nots I'm all ears...

Art

Art, I'm going to have to say I have never seen that style of plate on any trunks that I have viewed. That is not to say they weren't , just I haven't seen them. So alas, full circle. Back to nothing. Steve

 

[CRUSADER]

So, if we all agree ( ) its not a truck plate & its not a belt plate, then the next likely leather attached item would be on horses. Has anyone researched early Horse blinkers or other horse related brasses? Not me, but might be a far more fruitful project. Anyone?

 

[artyfacts]

Your a funny one Cru. I believe you were the first to jump the trunk fence. I have looked at many blinkers and horse related hardware, no matches yet. And also looked into lumberjack equipment, no luck. The closest I have viewed is a similar clipped edge plate on a officers sword sash and it was a rendering, and a handful of perfectly matching plates in Lon Keims Accoutrement Book that is backed by years of knowledge. Now the onus is on proving that there not accoutrement plates. All I did was take the magic trunk wand out of the trunk fairies hands. Whats it going to be now? I will be watching and waiting for the next fairy smackdown...

 

[CRUSADER]

Your a funny one Cru. I believe you were the first to jump the trunk fence. I have looked at many blinkers and horse related hardware, no matches yet. And also looked into lumberjack equipment, no luck. The closest I have viewed is a similar clipped edge plate on a officers sword sash and it was a rendering, and a handful of perfectly matching plates in Lon Keims Accoutrement Book that is backed by years of knowledge. Now the onus is on proving that there not accoutrement plates. All I did was take the magic trunk wand out of the trunk fairies hands. Whats it going to be now? I will be watching and waiting for the next fairy smackdown...

I don't think I was the first Plenty have fallen before me I think it sounds completely plausible, unlike the accoutrement plate theory. Where is the evidence/source other than a book?

 

[artyfacts]

Well I will leave that in your hands to prove. Blinders or blinkers have been around for a long time. Show me the way...

 

[CRUSADER]

Well I will leave that in your hands to prove. Blinders or blinkers have been around for a long time. Show me the way...

Sorry, not my area of interest, it would have gone in my scrap bucket. (no reflection on the value to you) I have no vested interest either way.

 

[artyfacts]

Its amazing what one piece of scrap metal can do. Cheers

 

[CRUSADER]

Its amazing what one piece of scrap metal can do. Cheers

As you know, that's just a matter of perspective.

I like to ID everything I find, its sometimes easy, & sometimes I get it by luck years later. Unless you are fully happy, its not necessarily fully IDed. I think based on this whole debate that the horse option seems most likely, but its by no means proven.

To me I would spent little time on it, but in your shoes I may have gone the extra mile.

Maybe one day, you will trip over an ID, its like the 'I've stopped looking for it, & now it appears trick'

 

[artyfacts]

Yes it is. The possibilities are now narrowed down.

“Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude.” Thomas Jefferson

 

[CRUSADER]

Yes it is. The possibilities are now narrowed down.

“Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude.” Thomas Jefferson

Hopefully, I'm the one who is just mental but with no attitude

 

[Steve in PA]

I give up. Someone tell me what I found and I'll be happy . No, better yet. Someone show me a six hook clipped corner plate with regimental name or number, and I'll know what I found