Buckle Button And Axe

[artyfacts]

Spent five hours on a new site today with a large cellar hole, on a hill, in the woods, along the shoreline. I think the site was worked by someone with an older machine. All of iron was left behind, big stuff and small between 8 and 15 inches deep. The non ferrous items were found next to the iron. When I walked up to the site the first thing I dug was a broken axe head and found the button in the same hole I thought the place was going to be loaded. I was wrong it was already picked. I'm still happy with the iron and the few other items I found. The buckle was found on the top of the log splitter in the same hole. The buzzer is the third I have dug in two different sites in the last month. The suspender buckle still has some gilt left on it and its a little on the fancy side. The brass item is two inches long. I know it was nailed to the tip of something. Any Ideas? The little iron spike could it be to a spear or is it a awl? The full axe was sweet, 7 1/2 inches long. Its going to clean up nice, I like finding axes. Lantern parts, scythe, draw knife and -----the ticks are out. Arty

 

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[umrgolf]

Interesting but I'd like to know what units would have wore such a "plate" because as I said 1800s American military items aren't found here... well very few. And two think two plates were found at a small site without a single 1800s button. Just by that alone I believe the book is wrong. They no doubt were found at CW camps so maybe it was just a mistake.

IP, I understand your apprehension. Is it possible that the plates were carried there by others whatever they are? I do not know what size your plates are in comparison but, the page that was shown has more of the same with a different hook layout that matches the one I have and there may be more. As far as trunk plates, any info? I could not find anything that matches. Arty

This is probably the guy we need to pm or email.. as IP stated, he was also the last poster in the other thread

quote by vonrall (Don Troiani) "Buckle Boy is correct it is a trunk plate , no question about it"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Troiani


Books by Don Troiani:

* Don Troiani's Civil War
* Soldiers in America 1754-1865
* Military Buttons of the American Revolution
* Soldiers of the American Revolution
* Don Troiani's Regiments and Uniforms of the Civil War
* Don Troiani's American Battles

 

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[artyfacts]

I think we should have the authors fight it out... The author has a pic with the dates, 1820-1840 and there is more than one type listed. Troiani's statement is, "The oval buckle with center bar is American for the shoulder belt of the "new invented cartridgebox" of 1779". I do not think he was talking about the rectangular clipped edge buckle, right above the photo of the plate is a oval buckle. And if he was talking about the rectangle, there is a difference of 41 to 61 years comparing it to Keim's illustrated book , that is a huge timeline. But that is only if he was referring to the plate in question I wasn't sure the way it read. Arty

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,264025.0.html

 

[umrgolf]

I think we should have the authors fight it out... The author has a pic with the dates, 1820-1840 and there is more than one type listed. Troiani's statement is, "The oval buckle with center bar is American for the shoulder belt of the "new invented cartridgebox" of 1779". I do not think he was talking about the rectangular clipped edge buckle, right above the photo of the plate is a oval buckle. And if he was talking about the rectangle, there is a difference of 41 to 61 years comparing it to Keim's illustrated book , that is a huge timeline. Arty

He was referencing two separate things which was the reason I only pasted the information that applied to this thread. I hope you get it solved.

 

[artyfacts]

Thanks, it sounded like he was only talking about the oval.

 

[umrgolf]

Thanks, it sounded like he was only talking about the oval.

that's why I suggested reading the whole thread.. Buckleboy never mentioned the oval buckle... Don read all the comments and saw that Buckleboy had made the correct id, and then backed him up, then went on to mention the oval buckle since no one else had.

 

[artyfacts]

Emailed Don, his short reply...

Arty,

My period is the Revolution and somewhat the War of 1812 , you to need to find Lon and ask him about anything in his books.

Cheers

don

I guess he doesn't want to step on any toes when asked directly about the other author being possibly misinformed. I understand his position but, he has already replied to the other post about the same plate in question. I guess I will have to find Lon and ask him. Off to the next round... Arty

 

[traverdog]

Interesting finds.

 

[Mr Tuff]

looks like a great spot!!! nice relics!!! MR TUFF

 

[artyfacts]

Went a different route, I contacted five trunk restorers. First reply,

Hi Art,

I am not familiar with this piece in relation to trunks or chests.

I feel pretty good about the "no" on the trunk end.

Best Wishes,

Gary

Second reply, 38 years in the business of restoring trunks, From his reply and what I have read on his site, plates were riveted or nailed in but you never know.

Hi Art,

The trunk plates are brass
plates put on by trunk makers. You can see some here:
http://oldtrunks.com/history/historypages/labels.htm
Hard to tell from your photos but I assumed those were rivets or nails on
the item. Good luck with the quest.
Gerry

The rivets or nails are neither, they are part of the cast on the plate I found. The site has some good info. If anyone has pictures or illustrations of these types of plates for trunks it would be helpful narrowing down the possibilities. Waiting on 3 more replies from trunk restorers. Just tracked down, Doctor Lon Keim so I can ask questions.

 

[BuckleBoy]

I have been watching this thread and very interested in what turns up here. My hunch is pretty strong about the trunks--but I know that finding examples is tough. I had also thought this item might be a leather decoration from some sort of horse tack. The attachments would be consistent with that sort of application. This would be even more unlikely in terms of finding an example somewhere though. Heck, I couldn't even find a similar example for those two-hole strap guides that everybody and their uncle has found. And that was a Common item. This item is not as common or widespread in its use. The real person to answer this question is the author that has that item listed as a shoulder belt plate.

Regards,


Buckleboy

 

[Rickiowa2009]

Cool finds

 

[Bell]

I don't claim tip have any knowledge either way, but I do think that looking at it it would be a very hard thing to hammer into a trunk the way the hooks are cast as one piece without bending the hooks or the whole piece, so I would say common sense would say not a trunk plate, but of course that doesn't make it a buckle.

 

[Iron Patch]

I don't have much more to add other than you're probably looking at a time frame from 1800-1830, and I would guess that later part of that range. We did find Rev War stuff but I'm just not feeling that from the plate, and it certainly wasn't something worn along with the buttons we dug.

 

[artyfacts]

I have no doubt that plates were used to embellish trunks. The plate I dug is like a tank with short hooks, I couldn't bend it by hand if I wanted to. It without doubt attached to something less than 1/8 of an inch thick, other wise the hooks would be useless. Waiting for the rest of the replies and will try to contact the author.

One more reply from another restorer.

Art,

I have seen brass plates similar to this a few times on antique trunks from the early 1800's to 1860's, used to engrave the owners name. Later in the 1800's brass plates were used by some trunk companies to put their name plate on the trunks, but they were almost always only about 1" X 3" or so and thinner brass. They aren't too common to find but not extremely rare. I hope this helps.

Marvin Miller
ThisOldTrunk.com

 

[artyfacts]

Another reply,

Art, I have never seen a part like this on a trunk, however it is possible.
Gary Daniel

Shenandoah Antique Restoration

 

[steelheadwill]

Great Finds!
Fanciest suspender clip I've seen.
Nice Buckle.
That seems to be an interesting Site to investigate

 

[artyfacts]

I had to ask more specific questions about the simular plates Marvin & Treasure Chest said they had viewed. I have left my phone number with the authors secretary also waiting for his and Treasure Chests replies. Added a picture of the cellar hole.

Marvin's reply,

A couple I've seen were clipped like that. Most were on trunks so don't know about the hooks. One I had removed once had 4 brass wires soldered on the back to push though small holes to attach to the trunk.

Marvin Miller


Thank you Marvin for your quick reply, of the thicker variety that you have viewed did any have the clipped corners with six cast hooks or prongs? The ones that are in question have six cast or soldered hooks on the back of the plate. Thanks again for your help. Art


I have seen brass plates similar to this a few times on antique trunks from the early 1800's to 1860's, used to engrave the owners name. Later in the 1800's brass plates were used by some trunk companies to put their name plate on the trunks, but they were almost always only about 1" X 3" or so and thinner brass. They aren't too common to find but not extremely rare. I hope this helps.

Marvin Miller
ThisOldTrunk.com

 

[artyfacts]

I did get to speak with the author Dr. Lon Keim, still waiting for his reply to the email I sent with photos of the three plates found. One by myself, IP's and the other plate that was on a previous thread. The book by Mr Keim is a work of art with beautiful photos and lots of them of descript and nondescript plates and buckles, my kind of book. After speaking with him for 45 minutes I found that the Dr is a serious collector with lots of knowledge about these plates. Fixed and sliding types. He has had access to vast collections and collectors with knowledge that is no longer accessible due to the knowledge base passing on. Confederate Calender Works was one of the possible sources of finding a soldier waring these plates. He also has a series of books he has in his possession that is also a source for actual photos of soldiers from all states, he is going to let me know what the collection is called. I was sent another email by Gerry with additional information. I will let all know what the conclusion is when I hear from Dr. Keim.

Hi Art,

Some may have had clipped corners but the thicker ones are pretty rare and
sometimes homemade. I've not seen any with hooks, just nails or rivets. I
really don't think what you've found is a trunk plate.

Gerry Hoots (Webmaster/Owner)

Treasured Chests - Antique Trunk Restorations, Research and Sales

http://oldtrunks.com E-Mail: [email protected]

 

[ewcoinhunter]

Nice finds!

 

[artyfacts]

I was waiting for an answer from author Dr. Lon Keim before I posted again, he was to be visiting with a very knowledgeable collector. After viewing the plate in person this is what was said, "we believe it to be an accoutrement plate of some time, likely a shoulder belt plate for a cloth or canvas type belt, or even thin leather".

After many hours of research, conversations with collectors, trunk restorers, and authors, I have arrived at my own personal answer, this is not a trunk plate but is a accoutrement plate that was for, cloth, canvas or thin leather. I was lucky that two of the six hooks were still intact, this was the best clue. The reason for six clips, posts, or hooks, the material that the prongs or hooks held was much weaker. The hooks on the plate I found are only long enough to accommodate a materiel up to 1/8 thick. The hooks were bent in six different directions insuring that the plate did not have an easy escape from its weaker resting place.

Thank you all for the responses. I have had a great time researching this find. And I'm happy to say that I have found a accoutrement plate of some kind. Arty