Buckle Button And Axe

[artyfacts]

Spent five hours on a new site today with a large cellar hole, on a hill, in the woods, along the shoreline. I think the site was worked by someone with an older machine. All of iron was left behind, big stuff and small between 8 and 15 inches deep. The non ferrous items were found next to the iron. When I walked up to the site the first thing I dug was a broken axe head and found the button in the same hole I thought the place was going to be loaded. I was wrong it was already picked. I'm still happy with the iron and the few other items I found. The buckle was found on the top of the log splitter in the same hole. The buzzer is the third I have dug in two different sites in the last month. The suspender buckle still has some gilt left on it and its a little on the fancy side. The brass item is two inches long. I know it was nailed to the tip of something. Any Ideas? The little iron spike could it be to a spear or is it a awl? The full axe was sweet, 7 1/2 inches long. Its going to clean up nice, I like finding axes. Lantern parts, scythe, draw knife and -----the ticks are out. Arty

 

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[paleomann]

I am curious about the long blade like piece near the bottom of your first pic, since I recently found the exact same piece. Are you aware of its identity?

 

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[timekiller]

I am curious about the long blade like piece near the bottom of your first pic, since I recently found the exact same piece. Are you aware of its identity?

Here you go! (Think Grim Reaper)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe
Take Care!
Pete,

 

[artyfacts]

Timekiller is correct, a scythe. It was one of two found at this site. Arty

 

[allen]

nice assortment of old relics !!!

 

[fieldslayer]

OH NO !!! ....... It's back again , vonrall ! Don Troiani and I just had a slightly heated , but friendly and lengthy dialog on just these type buckles with these type attachments in forums "Revolutionary War" section of our treasurenet site. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,391321.0.html . One must respect his years of research and contributions on this matter, and while he is only human, and while there MAY be possible exceptions , He has pretty well convinced me that they would be just that : Exceptions. I would strongly encourage you all to read this blog and the submitted evidence and make your own conclusions.

 

[artyfacts]

Thanks for the reading. I did look at the examples given for trunk plates listed on the thread you have sent. One of the three examples is screwed in, the other was inlayed into the wood and most likely horse glued in. The other of the three probably followed suit with the inlayed variety.

The two remaining hooks that were still attached to my plate are of great relevance in my decision. These prongs were not made for wood, an acception.

Arty

OH NO !!! ....... It's back again , vonrall ! Don Troiani and I just had a slightly heated , but friendly and lengthy dialog on just these type buckles with these type attachments in forums "Revolutionary War" section of our treasurenet site. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,391321.0.html . One must respect his years of research and contributions on this matter, and while he is only human, and while there MAY be possible exceptions , He has pretty well convinced me that they would be just that : Exceptions. I would strongly encourage you all to read this blog and the submitted evidence and make your own conclusions.

 

[fieldslayer]

Arty - Seeing this one from DirtyMike is what prompted my query blog for discussion and info last month. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,209840.msg1875734.html#msg1875734 . Maybe you could email him to see what he's come up with about them. Good Hunting!

 

[artyfacts]

Thanks fieldslayer for the site I will contact him. I understand the position of some of the experts and I appreciate your arguments and others that I have heard so far . I didn't care one way or another whether it was a trunk plate or a accoutrement plate but wanted answers. In all of the findings from the five trunk restorers not one has associated a six hook clipped plate to any trunk. The best so far was a similar style with four soldered wires not sure of the size. So if its not a trunk plate, what is it? What was its purpose? Why nondescript? It could have been attached to an antique lunchbox... The English wore these type or I should say shape of clipped edge plates on sword sashes, so why wouldn't the idea be adopted by others, its possible. I have a lot of questions that wont be answered by anyone living. Arty

 

[fieldslayer]

Arty - I understand the frustration. I dug 2 myself , identical in every way , just in Burlington County, NJ ; also blank faced. Would'nt it be a hoot if these were all being churned out by one big manufacturer ? Ad would have read like this : "NOW AVAILABLE !!! "See our new line of decorative , multi-use clipped corner brass plates. Now with 6 easy attachment studs!!! "May be used for decorating belts , accoutrements , trunks , horse tack , carriage doors , book covers , even lunch boxes ! Demand is high so get them while they last !" ( American Gazette - Apr. 28, 1820 )

 

[artyfacts]

That is funny... Reading that paper would be a hoot. Send me my two cents worth whatever its worth. I think there is a possibility that they were made in Burlington, just for all those purposes. Arty

Arty - I understand the frustration. I dug 2 myself , identical in every way , just in Burlington County, NJ ; also blank faced. Would'nt it be a hoot if these were all being churned out by one big manufacturer ? Ad would have read like this : "NOW AVAILABLE !!! "See our new line of decorative , multi-use clipped corner brass plates. Now with 6 easy attachment studs!!! "May be used for decorating belts , accoutrements , trunks , horse tack , carriage doors , book covers , even lunch boxes ! Demand is high so get them while they last !" ( American Gazette - Apr. 28, 1820 )

 

[artyfacts]

Hello all, Still beating down the door. Well there are four more restorers that I did not bother to include, they were by phone, here are another three. All are of the same conclusion as the other restorers, not a single six hooked plate. The trunk plate theory is going by the wayside, hopefully with it out of the way, it will allow for more speculation as to what these plates actually were. I have already reached my conclusion, now its a matter of when and who. If there are any other finders of these type of six hooked, clipped cornered plates, please email me with a time period, of the other relics found in the area where the plate was found, establishing a timeline. I have three so far and hopefully a pattern developes. Thanks, Art [email protected]

Well, based on the photos and description I don't believe we've ever seen
anything like that on a trunk. Then again, we've only worked on a little
over 4,000 trunks in the last 23 years, so we certainly haven't seen it all.

Churchill Barton, Mgr
Brettuns Village, Inc.
PO Box 772
Auburn, ME 04212
FAX: (207)782-7448 Fax
http://www.BrettunsVillage.Com


I cant imagine what it would have been used for on a trunk. I have not seen anything like it, or can think of what it would be used for. I am 99% sure it is NOT off a trunk.
Jim

HMS Antique Trunks.com


This correspondence starts at the bottom. Pat is a restorer and author of a number of trunk books.

Hi, Art.
I don't think I have seen one attached that way. The pins would have to be quite long to go all the way through and then be bent. We are talking at least 1/2-3/4" long.

If the plate has pins its the only way it could of attached and its obvious that the trunks would of had materials between 1/4 to 5/8 thick. Not one surviving trunk with this heavy duty plate attached...


Hello Pat,
Thank you for getting back to me. I have viewed clipped corner plates on trunks that were inlaid into the wood and also tacked and riveted. Have you viewed a six clipped or hooked version that would of been bent inside of the trunk to secure it?
Best Regards,
Art

Hi, Art.
I have seen cast brass plates like this on trunks from the early 19th century. Civil War Era seems a little late for it. Typically, they would be inscribed with an owner's name. The fact that this plate is not inscribed could lead you to lots of conclusions. No use going into them here as they are really not relevant. I suppose it's possible that it could have been made to attach to a leather sash but that doesn't sit right with me. I don't disagree but, again, the lack of inscription belays that idea somewhat.
Regards,
Pat Morse The clipped corner, six hooked plates in question are almost all nondescript, there is only one so far noted by Fieldslayer, this is his thread.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,391321.0.html

 

[fieldslayer]

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/sh...page=40&sort=2&stype=&limit=&cat=all&ppuser=0 . A point of interest from Great Britain : A respected forum member , who probably would'nt mind his name credited (but I won't because I did'nt ask his permission), provided this useful link. He said it is well documented these arose during the late 19th century and continued well into the 20th. He also added that the vast majority found there are also blank. ....... + finally a link that shows all the backs !!! I'm afraid the timeline seems off arty , but may explain a dual purpose on the uncommon 4 wire attachments Mr. Miller recalls , possibly added later on earlier trunks.() At any rate , Arty , you have been a real pitbull in your "dogged" pursuit of the top trunk restorers evidence (the only people who see the back attachment mode) pertaining to this age old dispute , and hope your continued efforts find all the evidence or lack of, to finally arrive at a consensus ; based on the FACTS. My hat go's off to you. ......(I myself was fairly convinced "trunk plate" after being on the fence for years.) Now I'm back on the fence again thinking , "hey , maybe leather". Say , Anyone know if early trunks wore beltplates

 

[fieldslayer]

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/sh...page=40&sort=2&stype=&limit=&cat=all&ppuser=0 That's one long choppy link. Hope it's clickable ; it's worth seeing. Almost forgot ; More specifics : it was explained these things are called blinkers. Here I think we would call them blinders and the various sized plates decorated those flaps on each side beside the horses eyes. Like you BuckleBoy , through the years I also have wondered if these plates could be some kind of horse tack.......and sometimes still do. When I get some time, i myself am going to go on a sort of Google crunch and check out as much evidence as I can on several fronts , maybe some not yet examined.......

 

[CRUSADER]

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/sh...page=40&sort=2&stype=&limit=&cat=all&ppuser=0 . A point of interest from Great Britain : A respected forum member , who probably would'nt mind his name credited (but I won't because I did'nt ask his permission), provided this useful link. He said it is well documented these arose during the late 19th century and continued well into the 20th. He also added that the vast majority found there are also blank. ....... + finally a link that shows all the backs !!! I'm afraid the timeline seems off arty , but may explain a dual purpose on the uncommon 4 wire attachments Mr. Miller recalls , possibly added later on earlier trunks.() At any rate , Arty , you have been a real pitbull in your "dogged" pursuit of the top trunk restorers evidence (the only people who see the back attachment mode) pertaining to this age old dispute , and hope your continued efforts find all the evidence or lack of, to finally arrive at a consensus ; based on the FACTS. My hat go's off to you. ......(I myself was fairly convinced "trunk plate" after being on the fence for years.) Now I'm back on the fence again thinking , "hey , maybe leather". Say , Anyone know if early trunks wore beltplates

When you PMed me about the similar looking one I found, I didn't realise you were relating it to this item. This item is somewhat different to the Horse Blinkers. In that its thinner brass, doesn't have a rim on the backside where the pronges attached. Although it could easily be a blinker or a leather attachment of some sort, I have no idea if this was any kind of ....

PS. I never mind being accurately quoted, its an open forum & I have no worry about being shot down or getting it wrong, we all learn on here through these debates.

 

[fieldslayer]

Get's confusing the deeper you delve into this puzzle as you see, .... with opinions flying!!! At any rate , when I saw your similar find amongst the objects in your last post " Desparate times ....", I just had to ask what info you had on that very similar looking initialed brass "plate". You are hereby most thankfully and appreciatively credited, and acknowledged Crusader , for your input as to this tangled quest for evidence. ....Hope I quoted you accurately. When I saw the backs of these, I knew they were'nt the same as our typical "mystery clip-corner plates". However, as they say about good science : "Even a disappointing result is not a failure , as negative investigations are still valuable information". Perhaps I should try to think on a bit easier mystery ......, say, solving Stonehenge......! PS - don't let those occasional random dents and warps in our typical clipped corner type plates as shown fool you ; they may look thin, but are not, and would be very difficult for the average man to bend by hand. In fact, the evidence of those ancient knocks also leads me to believe the some kind of "leather " attachment theory. ( no trunk wood behind to support the integrity ). Thanks and continued success Crusader , you're welcome back any time here as far as I'm concerned...

 

[Steve in PA]

Well here is mine. I dug it on the island of Antigua many years ago. When I found it my friends and I all thought it was a cross belt plate. I sent pictures of mine to Mark Parker of Western & Eastern Treasures magazine which he forwarded to George Juno, who identified it as an 18th century trunk plate. While doing an internet search looking for examples of 18th century trunks with these plates attached, I ran across Steve Freede of The Trunk Shoppe, who makes authentic reproductions of 18th century trunks. Mr Freede has studied many examples of 18th century trunks. I explained that most relic hunters want to believe they have a cross belt plate, while most "authorities" say they are trunk plates. Here is his response......

Most assuredly, the short nails on the back would point to a leather mount.
Yes we have seen plates like these on trunks. Not fastened to the wood, but to a large leather flap that covered the lock. The Flap may or may not have one or two small straps at the bottom to attach to small buckles mounted to the trunk. This provided a positive closer during travel.
The plate served as weight to keep the flap in place even when it was not buckled, as a press or stiffener to keep the leather flap from curling, and an I.D. tag.
My Stand on these plates is --you and the so called experts are correct in there usage.
Thank You for the wonderful pictures.
Thank You for the inquiry.

 

[CRUSADER]

Well here is mine. I dug it on the island of Antigua many years ago. When I found it my friends and I all thought it was a cross belt plate. I sent pictures of mine to Mark Parker of Western & Eastern Treasures magazine which he forwarded to George Juno, who identified it as an 18th century trunk plate. While doing an internet search looking for examples of 18th century trunks with these plates attached, I ran across Steve Freede of The Trunk Shoppe, who makes authentic reproductions of 18th century trunks. Mr Freede has studied many examples of 18th century trunks. I explained that most relic hunters want to believe they have a cross belt plate, while most "authorities" say they are trunk plates. Here is his response......

Most assuredly, the short nails on the back would point to a leather mount.
Yes we have seen plates like these on trunks. Not fastened to the wood, but to a large leather flap that covered the lock. The Flap may or may not have one or two small straps at the bottom to attach to small buckles mounted to the trunk. This provided a positive closer during travel.
The plate served as weight to keep the flap in place even when it was not buckled, as a press or stiffener to keep the leather flap from curling, and an I.D. tag.
My Stand on these plates is --you and the so called experts are correct in there usage.
Thank You for the wonderful pictures.
Thank You for the inquiry.

This makes sense as it clearly went on leather (& I didn't buy into the belt plate theory) but I wasn't happy that it was a close enough match to the horse blinkers (different set up on the reverse).

 

[romeo-1]

How about a non-clipped plate with 4 attachments?

 

[artyfacts]

Your four hooked plate is listed as a shoulder or box plate, it doesn't have clipped corners but what the heck no ones alive from those times to prove otherwise. Here are two different hook styles. The six and the four hooked versions seem to be of all different sizes and hook variants. The timeline for these shaped six and four hooked plates seems rather large from the late 18th to the late 19th century. These two plates are listed in Lon W Keims Confederate General Services Accoutrement Plates. Mr Keims book was written 24 years ago from a knowledge base of collectors that rivals anyone person out there today. It is well written and is illustrated beautifully. You are probably going to be told its a trunk plate, hold all bets, more to come... Arty

 

[Iron Patch]

You are probably going to be told its a trunk plate, hold all bets, more to come... Arty

But are you saying it's a Confederate plate found on Canada's east coast? Plus likeyou said it's not a match anyway.

I wish they were plates. We found two on the same site.