Both sides of Stone Maps Argument

[deducer]

I wasn't with Travis, and doubt that you were either. We can't know what he was doing - he could have been chasing butterflies for all we know. It is not possible to KNOW for a certainty what he was doing or for that matter, NOT doing.

Travis wrote a manuscript entitled "Challenge for Superstition Gold." In it, he made it quite clear that he was in the Superstitions hunting for treasure, not looking for butterflies.

Yes father Charles Polzer SJ. Polzer is a well respected historian on Arizona history. He is definitely open to question concerning Jesuit treasures and mines, for as a Jesuit he had a personal bias and was sworn to defend his Order, which could color his statements. All that said - there is nothing on the Peralta stones that is specifically and undeniably Jesuit at all. Christian crosses yes, a figure that could be a priest maybe, it could be a witch - but really nothing on them indicates any direct linkage to the Jesuit order or to the Catholic church for that matter. So his opinion should not be thrown out on the grounds that he was a Jesuit since these stone maps are not proven to be Jesuit.

As you said, Polzer had an obvious personal bias- what did he gain by announcing the Stone Maps were for real? That would fly in the face of his continual insistence that there were no Jesuit treasure. But you can sure bet that if treasure had been discovered, he would have been there right away to claim it.

Travis certainly liked to carve stones, unless we are now going to say that some transient wandering Jesuit or Spanish stone carver came and carved the chimney of the house! I see no reason to doubt Garry Cundiff's statements. How do you know who your daddy is, because your momma told you so - to misquote a famous movie of recent years. Travis liked to carve stones, and just COINCIDENTALLY he just happens to have these Peralta stone maps? Really?

One more time ,Gary Cundiff's exact statement is, and it is in bold and red letters from the other site: "The short version of the story is that we were told by the family members with whom we spoke, that Travis Tumlinson carved the stone maps."

Likewise, he was told by the family that Travis did the carvings on the Chimney.

Garry was just passing on what he was told.

In that regard, there is nothing suspect about what Garry said, but it's also possible to doubt what the family told Garry. Especially when they were not around while Travis was alive. And especially when their accounts conflict. Not everyone agrees on what happened.

I repeat, we do NOT know the real reason(s) why Travis might have been traveling from Oregon to the Superstitions. It is not possible to KNOW for an absolute certainty at this point in time. I would point out that the Superstition mountains are famous for a lost gold mine, the Lost Dutchman, along with several other lost mines and treasures like the lost Waggoner mine or the cave of gold bars, which were in public knowledge at that time and Travis certainly could have known about them. He could have been searching for the lost Dutchman mine, and simply told others he was following the stone maps. We can't know today. If there were NO other known lost mines or treasures in the Superstitions, I would concede that his only possible reason to be spending time in the Superstitions then HAD to be the stone maps. However there are multiple other possibilities.

Roy, Travis came from a family of treasure hunter. His grandfather and uncles were treasure hunters. He and they spent substantial time in the Superstitions looking for what they thought the Stone Maps represented. He didn't really spend any time on the LDM.

It's all in his manuscript and backed up by photos and secondary sources, including his uncles, and relatives. They were/are all looking for the same thing and it ain't the LDM.

 

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[JohnWhite]

Enough sand gets low in the hourglass , patience can get scarce.

Yes , he was apparently not too taciturn.

Some people have a knack to adapt and overcome...No matter how low the sand in the hourglass gets they have a tendency to go with the flow and frustrate those who have tried just about everything in the book to break them...They have contingencies for about almost every possible outcome...

Oh well...One day...I don't think I'd mind moving to Mazatlan...IF worse comes to worse...Or push comes to shove...

Ed T

 

[JohnWhite]

I wasn't with Travis, and doubt that you were either. We can't know what he was doing - he could have been chasing butterflies for all we know. It is not possible to KNOW for a certainty what he was doing or for that matter, NOT doing.

Deducer also wrote


Yes father Charles Polzer SJ. Polzer is a well respected historian on Arizona history. He is definitely open to question concerning Jesuit treasures and mines, for as a Jesuit he had a personal bias and was sworn to defend his Order, which could color his statements. All that said - there is nothing on the Peralta stones that is specifically and undeniably Jesuit at all. Christian crosses yes, a figure that could be a priest maybe, it could be a witch - but really nothing on them indicates any direct linkage to the Jesuit order or to the Catholic church for that matter. So his opinion should not be thrown out on the grounds that he was a Jesuit since these stone maps are not proven to be Jesuit.

Deducer also wrote


Travis certainly liked to carve stones, unless we are now going to say that some transient wandering Jesuit or Spanish stone carver came and carved the chimney of the house! I see no reason to doubt Garry Cundiff's statements. How do you know who your daddy is, because your momma told you so - to misquote a famous movie of recent years. Travis liked to carve stones, and just COINCIDENTALLY he just happens to have these Peralta stone maps? Really?

Deducer also wrote


I did not answer this earlier quite by oversight, my apologies. I believed that I had indeed read the Peck investigation letters and thought copies were stored on my wife's computer. Unfortunately it has been years and we have changed computers several times in the meantime and I cannot locate it. I can't remember details from the letters but can remember thinking it was building a fairly strong case for the stone maps being genuine. Unfortunately since then we have learned of Travis having a penchant for carving stones.


Deducer also wrote


I repeat, we do NOT know the real reason(s) why Travis might have been traveling from Oregon to the Superstitions. It is not possible to KNOW for an absolute certainty at this point in time. I would point out that the Superstition mountains are famous for a lost gold mine, the Lost Dutchman, along with several other lost mines and treasures like the lost Waggoner mine or the cave of gold bars, which were in public knowledge at that time and Travis certainly could have known about them. He could have been searching for the lost Dutchman mine, and simply told others he was following the stone maps. We can't know today. If there were NO other known lost mines or treasures in the Superstitions, I would concede that his only possible reason to be spending time in the Superstitions then HAD to be the stone maps. However there are multiple other possibilities.

I am beating the dead horse here, so will let it go with this. Many others have believed they had solved the Peralta stones, and searched the Superstitions to find the treasure(s) and/or mines they believed the stone maps would lead them to. So far, none have successfully found any treasure(s) and or mines to prove their solution was the right one. To make matters worse, other treasure hunters, bored cowboys and even tourists have been making fake inscriptions and signs all over the Superstitions since at least the 1930s. A treasure hunter today is very likely to find signs and symbols to fit his own theory of the stone maps, which however are modern fakery and won't lead to anything of value.

Also have to agree with SDCFIA that the Horse 'map' more properly should be applied to New Mexico. I agree with Mike as well on his conclusion that the stone maps origin tales are just too 'iffy' at this point.

All this said - I hope that you (anyone whom believes the stone maps are the genuine article) will go out and find a treasure, and come back to post photos of it and prove me and the other skeptics all wrong. It would be great to see one treasure map proven to be real. Unfortunately there has to be a fatal flaw in every one in public circulation because they are not leading anyone to finding treasures or lost mines.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

At times I wonder IF the Jesuit order or the catholic order could be the red dragonIF Tayopa is a Jesuit mining area that consist of two mining reals that total 17 mines in total...Who knowsThe good book has some information that can't be found anywhere else...What IF Tayopa is a mining area that consists of two mining Reals...One which consists of 7 mines and the other 10 minesWe may never know...I can only speculate...

I have come to the conclusion that one of the areas that I am playing with could be of Jesuit origin...I don't know IF it can be proven though...That is another deed of which I am not certain...

Ed T

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Roy,

The only two carvings that Gary posted which were said to be made by Travis were the chimney, and the TC/G stone. Travis carved the TC/G stone only after he had found the PSM's, copying the letters. That only leaves the chimney, there are no other stones which showed him to be obsessed in carving treasure maps, it is all hearsay based on assumptions. From the chimney alone how can you conclude that he was obsessed in carving treasure maps? Just like I can not know what you may be thinking, neither can Garry, Larry, Ryan, or Roy know what Travis was thinking when he carved on the chimney. While there are some who believe that a turtle indicates treasure, Travis could have had a pet turtle. Just because his grandfather searched for treasure, it does not mean he taught Travis anything, or that he left treasure maps behind. What treasures did Peg leg ever find? Not every treasure hunter has success.

I already gave you solid evidence that Travis was incapable of having carved the PSM's, you just choose to ignore it, and that's fine with me. The fact that Travis left behind a manuscript telling us when, where, and how he found the PSM's, and that he failed to solve them, is all the proof you really need. He never mentioned, or praised his grandfather for teaching him about treasure hunting, or giving him any treasure maps, did he? It is all just assumed is it not? I unlike others could keep giving you more solid evidence, but it would be ignored because you have a penchant for assumptions, and hearsay.

Homar

 

[393stroker]

Question; What should one do if while hiking around out there and they find another carved stone that goes with the others? Asking for a friend.

 

[releventchair]

Some people have a knack to adapt and overcome...No matter how low the sand in the hourglass gets they have a tendency to go with the flow and frustrate those who have tried just about everything in the book to break them...They have contingencies for about almost every possible outcome...

Oh well...One day...I don't think I'd mind moving to Mazatlan...IF worse comes to worse...Or push comes to shove...

Ed T

So , are you being patient then? Or complacent.
Clock is runnin. It broke Ruth loose one more time and driving towards a goal of his after his body was near spent. While he still could. We don't know if he'd still have been able to "one more time" after his last trip had he survived it.
And he ain't sayin.

I'm guessin he impatiently had to try that last time. Due to the prospect of it all fading away if delayed any longer.


Mazatlan though.... Interesting choice. I feel better just imagining it.
Might get pulled out of the boat by a big fish , but hey. Could do worse!

Hear accounts of a couple ...Been awhile since an update . A ways from there but related area.
They do well on the ocean fishing for their livelihood.
Life is different around the house , not being native. But they're happy.

 

[Oroblanco]

Deducer - show me how the Peralta stones are undeniably linked to the Jesuits. Thanks in advance.

Ed T - yes, it IS the Red Dragon.

Howdy Roy,

The only two carvings that Gary posted which were said to be made by Travis were the chimney, and the TC/G stone. Travis carved the TC/G stone only after he had found the PSM's, copying the letters. That only leaves the chimney, there are no other stones which showed him to be obsessed in carving treasure maps, it is all hearsay based on assumptions. From the chimney alone how can you conclude that he was obsessed in carving treasure maps? Just like I can not know what you may be thinking, neither can Garry, Larry, Ryan, or Roy know what Travis was thinking when he carved on the chimney. While there are some who believe that a turtle indicates treasure, Travis could have had a pet turtle. Just because his grandfather searched for treasure, it does not mean he taught Travis anything, or that he left treasure maps behind. What treasures did Peg leg ever find? Not every treasure hunter has success.

I already gave you solid evidence that Travis was incapable of having carved the PSM's, you just choose to ignore it, and that's fine with me. The fact that Travis left behind a manuscript telling us when, where, and how he found the PSM's, and that he failed to solve them, is all the proof you really need. He never mentioned, or praised his grandfather for teaching him about treasure hunting, or giving him any treasure maps, did he? It is all just assumed is it not? I unlike others could keep giving you more solid evidence, but it would be ignored because you have a penchant for assumptions, and hearsay.

Homar

And there you go again. You are once again distorting what I said, and have made several statements that are not backed up by any proof.

For instance, you said:

Travis carved the TC/G stone only after he had found the PSM's, copying the letters. That only leaves the chimney, there are no other stones which showed him to be obsessed in carving treasure maps, it is all hearsay based on assumptions. From the chimney alone how can you conclude that he was obsessed in carving treasure maps?

Can you provide some proof that Travis carved the TC/G stone AFTER he supposedly found the PSMs, and COPIED the letters? Thanks in advance.
Where did I state that I have concluded that Travis was OBSESSED in carving treasure maps? Thanks in advance.

For the record, I stated that Travis obviously liked to carve stone, since we know of at least those two examples in the chimney and the TC/G stone, and by the statements from Garry, the PSMs. I don't know if that would count as being OBSESSED with carving treasure maps, but it sure looks like someone that likes to carve stones and is interested in treasure hunting. Hence the possibility of a 'pious fraud' in creating fake stone treasure maps not to deliberately fool anyone or defraud investors but simply because he liked to carve stones and maybe thought they SHOULD exist. Filling the void or need as it were.

Next, you wrote

I already gave you solid evidence that Travis was incapable of having carved the PSM's, you just choose to ignore it, and that's fine with me.

I thought it was more polite to say nothing, than to say that it wasn't too convincing. Sorry but I don't agree that what you showed me would qualify as "solid evidence". I thought it might offend you if I said I wasn't convinced by your solid proof. But that is just a personal OPINION and we all have those. I could easily be wrong.

Coazon de oro also wrote

The fact that Travis left behind a manuscript telling us when, where, and how he found the PSM's, and that he failed to solve them, is all the proof you really need.

That may well be all the proof you need, but I need more than that. I am more than willing to go hunt for a lost mine, that some guy showed rich ore he said came from it, even if there is no documentation beyond the fact that several people attested to having seen the ore. I haven't seen anything like a treasure or rich mine associated with the Peralta stones. Zilch - nada. If someone could show me ONE rich mine they found by their solution of the PSMs, I would give them far more credence.

You also wrote

He never mentioned, or praised his grandfather for teaching him about treasure hunting, or giving him any treasure maps, did he? It is all just assumed is it not? I unlike others could keep giving you more solid evidence, but it would be ignored because you have a penchant for assumptions, and hearsay.

<BOLD emphasis done by me, it was not that way in the original post, I emphasized it to illustrate a point.>

I would have to go hunt up our copies of his MSS and the other files to answer that but think you are correct, that Travis did not mention it. I don't assume it. I know from personal knowledge, that many, perhaps most families, have little or NO interest in their treasure hunting relatives activities and/or any maps etc. In fact it looks like that is more common than the reverse, from what I have seen. You are certainly welcome to post more evidence, but I would advise NOT to post anything that is going to compromise your own search or provide some claim jumper the info they need to sneak in and dig up the treasure before you could get to it. So please be extra cautious about posting too much detailed information especially about any particular location because while most of our friends here are honest and likely trustworthy, we also have people who are reading our posts and never post anything, because they are only here to literally harvest all the information they can get. Including at least two corporate entities that I know of.

Last is about that statement you made about me, which I put in BOLD to emphasize it.

You cannot speak for me, amigo. You may feel that I have a "penchant for hearsay and assumptions", and that is your right to feel any way you wish. But you do not know what I might say or will do. The fact that you keep posting statements which are changing what I had said, tells me you have your own bias and it is affecting how you read what is posted. At least what I post. So I will let it drop.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[azdave35]

Question; What should one do if while hiking around out there and they find another carved stone that goes with the others? Asking for a friend.

run it through a rock crusher

 

[releventchair]

run it through a rock crusher

Ouch. Not even a copy or two first?

 

[azdave35]

Ouch. Not even a copy or two first?

nope...lol

 

[azdave35]

Ouch. Not even a copy or two first?

a local guy not too far from me found a stone map out by florence junction...he still has it

 

[releventchair]

a local guy not too far from me found a stone map out by florence junction...he still has it

Does he look cursed?

 

[azdave35]

Does he look cursed?

no,,just ugly....seriously....i have seen the stone...tom k has also seen it...it doesn't resemble the maps in the museum though

 

[JohnWhite]

So , are you being patient then? Or complacent.
Clock is runnin. It broke Ruth loose one more time and driving towards a goal of his after his body was near spent. While he still could. We don't know if he'd still have been able to "one more time" after his last trip had he survived it.
And he ain't sayin.

I'm guessin he impatiently had to try that last time. Due to the prospect of it all fading away if delayed any longer.


Mazatlan though.... Interesting choice. I feel better just imagining it.
Might get pulled out of the boat by a big fish , but hey. Could do worse!

Hear accounts of a couple ...Been awhile since an update . A ways from there but related area.
They do well on the ocean fishing for their livelihood.
Life is different around the house , not being native. But they're happy.

Tomorrow may never come...But I have been poor my entire life and I could care less IF I never return to said area...I did not like the mule ride...It was a pain in the rear...

Mazatlan may not be Zihuatanejo...Though it may be as close to heaven that I may ever get...hehehe...Unless my tales of a little seal of the living God are true...

I do wish all of you the best in your search for whatever it may be that you are seeking...Maybe one day ya'll just might get lucky and find it...I have already been there and done that...I am just killing time until I leave this body and move on to the afterlife...It is then that I will find out IF there really is a life after death...I really do believe that there is and I just may be rewarded in it...

Who knowsI still play the lotto when it is greater than 160,000,000...IF it is My Father's will...I just may hit the darned thing one of these days...It really doesn't matter though...Like I stated earlier...I have been poor all of my life monetarily...But I have been rich in so many other ways...

Ed T

 

[deducer]

Deducer - show me how the Peralta stones are undeniably linked to the Jesuits. Thanks in advance.

How would that help determine if the Stone Maps are real or not?

 

[azdave35]

How would that help determine if the Stone Maps are real or not?

i think we have all grown tired of your games...now you have nobody to play with

 

[Oroblanco]

How would that help determine if the Stone Maps are real or not?

It would not prove them genuine OR fake. However it would provide support for your contention that father Polzer's assessment of the Peralta stones as modern fakes is a tainted, biased and probably false assessment because they are Jesuit and he was a Jesuit. Hence my request for you to provide something to show that the Peralta stones aka stone maps etc are absolutely and undeniably linked with the Jesuits. I could not find anything on them that absolutely points to the Jesuits at all. Christian yes, Catholic maybe, but Jesuit? I can't see anything to prove that. Nor for that matter to link them to Franciscans, Dominicans, Augustinians or any other Catholic Order of priests. As there doesn't seem to be anything Jesuit on the stone maps, on what grounds do you impeach father Polzer as a sort of expert witness? There is no Jesuit treasure referred to on the stones for him to lie about. Anyway I didn't expect you could provide something that would prove the stone maps are Jesuit, couldn't find anything on them myself either.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek. And come back and post your finds for the skeptics, okay?

 

[deducer]

It would not prove them genuine OR fake. However it would provide support for your contention that father Polzer's assessment of the Peralta stones as modern fakes is a tainted, biased and probably false assessment because they are Jesuit and he was a Jesuit. Hence my request for you to provide something to show that the Peralta stones aka stone maps etc are absolutely and undeniably linked with the Jesuits. I could not find anything on them that absolutely points to the Jesuits at all. Christian yes, Catholic maybe, but Jesuit? I can't see anything to prove that. Nor for that matter to link them to Franciscans, Dominicans, Augustinians or any other Catholic Order of priests. As there doesn't seem to be anything Jesuit on the stone maps, on what grounds do you impeach father Polzer as a sort of expert witness? There is no Jesuit treasure referred to on the stones for him to lie about. Anyway I didn't expect you could provide something that would prove the stone maps are Jesuit, couldn't find anything on them myself either.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek. And come back and post your finds for the skeptics, okay?

Well that's the subject of this thread- are the Stone Maps real or fake? I think that outside of knowing what specifically they refer to, the next best thing is to study the actions of those who spent the most time with them, as well as those who were closest to the center of action, so to speak. Not necessarily to determine who made them.

Polzer's position is worthless because he was already biased against Jesuits being involved with treasure in any shape, way, or form. In August of 1962 he wrote an article in "Desert" attacking the notion that Jesuits were involved with treasure. His article closes with the words: "Jesuit treasure is a myth."

What did you think his answer was then going to be? Even if there was an obvious Jesuit reference on the Stone Maps, he would be strenuously denying the connection, but if gold was found, you can bet he would have been the first one on site to claim it!

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Roy,

Just here to thank you for trying to be polite, and not wanting to offend me by not seeing any solid evidence. I did not expect you, or others to see it. I have learned a lot from Garry's research, and his comparison of the TC/G stone with the P/H stone was great. He just made the wrong conclusion simply because he, and his team are not fluent in Spanish. Knowing how to read it is not enough, and Travis did not even know how to read it. He could get words translated by a book, like many can, but lacked the knowledge to get the syntax right. Spanish is not only backwards, it also has gender. Spelling is not that critical, most people make spelling errors in their own language like we do here, but others can tell what they meant to write.

Garry's comparison was from a stone that was known to have been carved by Travis, the Treasure Chest/Galleon stone, with the Priest/Horse stone that Travis found. Since most of the letters were identical, it was suspected that Travis may have carved the P/H stone, and this was Garry's conclusion.

Had they been fluent in Spanish they would have noticed that the syntax on the P/H stone was perfect, even an exception to the rule of gender (EL MAPA) was correct. It has spelling errors, showing that the words were not picked out of a dictionary. The TC/G stone on the other hand, had no spelling errors, but the syntax was all wrong. The word Spain was used, which is not a Spanish word. A Spaniard, or Mexican would have never used an English word, and butcher the syntax as Travis did.

Travis could not have carved the TC/G stone matching most of the letters on a stone he had not yet found. The letter comparison only shows that Travis copied the letters from the P/H stone which he was incapable of creating. Only if you are fluent in Spanish does it stand out as solid evidence, leaving Garry's conclusion as just an assumption as was the turtle carving.

This more detailed explanation was not to try and change your thinking Roy, it was for those other silent members that also come here. I also thank you for the caution about posting more proof, but because I could, does not mean I would. I will also bow out.

Homar

 

[Oroblanco]

Well that's the subject of this thread- are the Stone Maps real or fake? I think that outside of knowing what specifically they refer to, the next best thing is to study the actions of those who spent the most time with them, as well as those who were closest to the center of action, so to speak. Not necessarily to determine who made them.

Polzer's position is worthless because he was already biased against Jesuits being involved with treasure in any shape, way, or form. In August of 1962 he wrote an article in "Desert" attacking the notion that Jesuits were involved with treasure. His article closes with the words: "Jesuit treasure is a myth."

What did you think his answer was then going to be? Even if there was an obvious Jesuit reference on the Stone Maps, he would be strenuously denying the connection, but if gold was found, you can bet he would have been the first one on site to claim it!

Well I have to respectfully disagree, based on the lack of any direct linkage to the Jesuits for Polzer to have to protect and lie about. He very well may have been quick to leap forward to lay claim to any treasure(s) recovered but as none were reported we can't know for sure what he might have done or not done. It is possible that he would not have tried to lay claim to the treasure as there is nothing to link it to the Jesuits. Who knows?

Homar - I have to agree with you in part but respectfully disagree in part, the fact that there are Spanish errors on the Peralta stones tells me it is fake, not genuine. A Spanish speaker would never write "coazon" for corazon but an Anglo might, by hearing it spoken and not noticing the R is rather quiet -> in my OPINION. But heck everyone is entitled to an opinion and their own beliefs, if you are convinced then you have enough evidence to justify your search further. I don't see enough to encourage me to go for it. The fact that Travis also carved other stones is a huge red flag for me, but then I never really believed in the stone maps being genuine. Too many other guys have already tried to use them to find treasures without any luck. I don't put much faith in any of the treasure maps that are in public circulation because there has to be something very wrong about them even if they are the genuine article, or some earlier treasure hunter would have already successfully found the treasure (and-or mine) the maps supposedly lead to, NOT just the Peralta stones. I would love to be wrong about this.