Both sides of Stone Maps Argument

[Loke]

Arthur,
You have not proven that the PSMs are truly maps to anything of interest - hence they must be false (by your own logic).

 

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[deducer]

Arthur,
You have not proven that the PSMs are truly maps to anything of interest - hence they must be false (by your own logic).

I have demonstrated that the people closest to the Stone Maps, the ones that spent the most time with them, did not act like they were perpetuating a con.

Never once was Travis depicted as trying to sell those Stone Maps or copies, to anyone.

And it cannot be proven that he was "just having fun" by carving these maps.

 

[sdcfia]

May I ask what the available evidence consists of?

1. The facsimile carved stones and photographs of them.
2. All lore in the public domain - books, photos, articles, videos, testimonies, letters, web threads, maps and opinions that discuss the stones and those people associated with them.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Roy,

Have you seen a picture of the entire chimney?

deducer,

Found an old photo of the chimney at the old cabin Peg Leg Tumlinson lived in until his death in 1920 and Phillip Leasman moved into immediately upon Peg Leg's death.

Leasman had been taking care of Tumlinson at the cabin for years before Peg Leg died.

Phil Leasman's name and dates he carved the head and several other things on the chimney can be seen.

Travis Tumlinson recreated Phil Leasman's original drawing of the head later on and lower down on the chimney.

There are numerous initials carved on the chimney that were done by persons NOT related to the Tumlinson's or Leasman's. No one knows if any of those carving their initials also carved pictures.
The roads out to this old cabin are lined with numerous rocks that were carved on by local kids over many decades. Initials and pictures and notes by numerous unidentified artists.

 

[Al D]

deducer,

Found an old photo of the chimney at the old cabin Peg Leg Tumlinson lived in until his death in 1920 and Phillip Leasman moved into immediately upon Peg Leg's death.

Leasman had been taking care of Tumlinson at the cabin for years before Peg Leg died.

Phil Leasman's name and dates he carved the head and several other things on the chimney can be seen.

Travis Tumlinson recreated Phil Leasman's original drawing of the head later on and lower down on the chimney.

There are numerous initials carved on the chimney that were done by persons NOT related to the Tumlinson's or Leasman's. No one knows if any of those carving their initials also carved pictures.
The roads out to this old cabin are lined with numerous rocks that were carved on by local kids over many decades. Initials and pictures and notes by numerous unidentified artists.

View attachment 1798081 View attachment 1798082

This information makes it very difficult to conclude that Travis carved the PSM’s, if such a conclusion is based upon this chimney evidence.
thank you for posting this Matthew

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Found an old photo of the chimney at the old cabin Peg Leg Tumlinson lived in until his death in 1920 and Phillip Leasman moved into immediately upon Peg Leg's death.

Leasman had been taking care of Tumlinson at the cabin for years before Peg Leg died.

Phil Leasman's name and dates he carved the head and several other things on the chimney can be seen.

Travis Tumlinson recreated Phil Leasman's original drawing of the head later on and lower down on the chimney.

There are numerous initials carved on the chimney that were done by persons NOT related to the Tumlinson's or Leasman's. No one knows if any of those carving their initials also carved pictures.
The roads out to this old cabin are lined with numerous rocks that were carved on by local kids over many decades. Initials and pictures and notes by numerous unidentified artists.

Correct!

This blows up the assumption that Travis took the initiative to make those carvings on the chimney, or that he was the sole artist. As you pointed out, there were many other artists, and that Phil Leasman was the originator, and Travis the imitator.

That this was in fact, Peg Leg's cabin and not the family homestead, is also very relevant. It's very noteworthy that the carvings took place there and nowhere else.

Phil Leasman and Clarence Mitchell both play big roles in this story, roles equivalent to, if not bigger than the one Travis played, as far as the modern history of the Stone Maps.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

alan m, deducer,

Phil Leasman was just a young man, a teen ager when he was with Peg Leg and just 20 years old when Peg Leg died. Lots of young people liked to carve their initials and things back in that time period (1920).

Phil Leasman was Travis Tumlinson's uncle, the brother of Travis's mother.

All of Peg Leg Tumlinson's things were there at the cabin, ..... maps, documents, letters, artifacts, carvings, several statues and stone heads etc.....

Travis as a teenager spent a lot of time with Leasman at the cabin. In 1934 when Travis was 24 years old, Leasman sent him to a little place between Superior and Florence Junction Arizona to work at a mine in Walnut Canyon just southeast of Superior. The mines were known as the Walnut Canyon Claims and were part of the Ray Mines Division. The mines were in rough country and Travis worked tending the horses and mules used in the mining.

But working the mine wasn't the reason for Leasman to send his nephew to Arizona, Phil Leasman used Travis's residence and the two of them together explored areas around Queen Creek, Hewitt and Millsite canyons and the Southeastern Superstition Mountains.

The Phil Leasman story is critical to understanding Travis Tumlinson and the "Peralta" Stone Maps.

 

[393stroker]

Maybe he carved the stone maps from chimney left overs. They look the same to me.

 

[Oroblanco]

Deducer, no I have only seen Garry's photos before Matthew provided us with these.

Matthew thank you for posting the photos!

So now we can add Travis's boyhood pals as possible stone carvers - perhaps it was one or more of them who carved the Peralta stones?

Is the horse truly dead yet?

I have a question for those of you whom are believing the Peralta stones are the genuine article and that Travis had nothing to do with the carving:

If the Peralta stone maps are the real thing, why then didn't Travis find the treasure?

Likewise, if Travis failed, Clarence Mitchell with more backing, failed to find the treasure - why?

What was their big mistake?

Thanks in advance,

 

[Al D]

Deducer, no I have only seen Garry's photos before Matthew provided us with these.

Matthew thank you for posting the photos!

So now we can add Travis's boyhood pals as possible stone carvers - perhaps it was one or more of them who carved the Peralta stones?

Is the horse truly dead yet?

I have a question for those of you whom are believing the Peralta stones are the genuine article and that Travis had nothing to do with the carving:

If the Peralta stone maps are the real thing, why then didn't Travis find the treasure?

Likewise, if Travis failed, Clarence Mitchell with more backing, failed to find the treasure - why?

What was their big mistake?

Thanks in advance,

I do not know what mistake Travis made, but it seems that Clarence believed what Travis claimed about how and where the stones were found and based his strategy on that information

 

[JohnWhite]

Deducer, no I have only seen Garry's photos before Matthew provided us with these.

Matthew thank you for posting the photos!

So now we can add Travis's boyhood pals as possible stone carvers - perhaps it was one or more of them who carved the Peralta stones?

Is the horse truly dead yet?

I have a question for those of you whom are believing the Peralta stones are the genuine article and that Travis had nothing to do with the carving:

If the Peralta stone maps are the real thing, why then didn't Travis find the treasure?

Likewise, if Travis failed, Clarence Mitchell with more backing, failed to find the treasure - why?

What was their big mistake?

Thanks in advance,

"What was their big mistake?"...They were looking in the wrong site or area...lol...Even the maps have Sonora carved in them...I am pretty sure that the area in question is somewhere in Mexico...But who can say with 100% certainty that the area is in MexicoI believe that I can...hehehe...

Ed T

 

[somehiker]

Sonora has an interesting etymology.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonora

and from..... https://opatanation.org/about

"In the time of the ancestors, seven tribes left the palo verde area (near California and Arizona). And they were told not to stop until they found the eagle devouring the snake, but one tribe no longer wanted to continue with the rest and decided to stay and reside in the mountains of the current state of Sonora in Mexico, and according to us we are the Opata descendants."

And there is even more of interest regarding the history of the Opata in Arizona, including symbols they consider sacred.

 

[deducer]

So now we can add Travis's boyhood pals as possible stone carvers - perhaps it was one or more of them who carved the Peralta stones?

Roy, Phil wasn't Travis's contemporary. Phil was Travis's uncle. Everything Phil did, Travis imitated, be it carving or exploring the same places in the Superstitions.

Why?

If the Peralta stone maps are the real thing, why then didn't Travis find the treasure?

Likewise, if Travis failed, Clarence Mitchell with more backing, failed to find the treasure - why?

What was their big mistake?

Tayopa hasn't been found or uncovered. Does that mean everything related to it is a hoax?

The LDM hasn't been found. Does that mean Jacob Waltz is a complete fiction? Are all his clues a giant hoax?

There are 16 sub forums on this forums (excluding Superstition legends and Jesuit treasure) , all dealing with various treasures, none of which have been found (yet).

Does that mean they're all hoaxes?

 

[azdave35]

Roy, Phil wasn't Travis's contemporary. Phil was Travis's uncle. Everything Phil did, Travis imitated, be it carving or exploring the same places in the Superstitions.

Why?



Tayopa hasn't been found or uncovered. Does that mean everything related to it is a hoax?

The LDM hasn't been found. Does that mean Jacob Waltz is a complete fiction? Are all his clues a giant hoax?

There are 16 sub forums on this forums (excluding Superstition legends and Jesuit treasure) , all dealing with various treasures, none of which have been found (yet).

Does that mean they're all hoaxes?

the ldm has been found and how do you know alot of the other big treasures have not been found?

 

[JohnWhite]

the ldm has been found and how do you know alot of the other big treasures have not been found?

This reminds me of some guy who studied at the Mackay school of mines who found a large white paragon diamond near Reno and kept it to himself and his close circle of friends...lol...I wonder whatever happened to that guy

Ed T

 

[azdave35]

This reminds me of some guy who studied at the Mackay school of mines who found a large white paragon diamond near Reno and kept it to himself and his close circle of friends...lol...I wonder whatever happened to that guy

Ed T

the ldm is no longer lost..neither is the fort huachuca treasure...doc noss treasure..all relocated and recovered as with many of the lost mine stories you read about.....the reason those mines were lost in the first place is because fear of the indians kept whitey away...once the indians were conquered whitey had free rein and found most of the so called lost mines....they are all worked out holes in the ground now

 

[JohnWhite]

the ldm is no longer lost..neither is the fort huachuca treasure...doc noss treasure..all relocated and recovered as with many of the lost mine stories you read about.....the reason those mines were lost in the first place is because fear of the indians kept whitey away...once the indians were conquered whitey had free rein and found most of the so called lost mines....they are all worked out holes in the ground now

Sure they are Dave...Have you heard the one about the secret scientist don't want us to know about...A secret group of prospector scientists have created flying donkeys...

Don't let the cat out of the bag...

Ed T

 

[azdave35]

Sure they are Dave...Have you heard the one about the secret scientist don't want us to know about...A secret group of prospector scientists have created flying donkeys...

Don't let the cat out of the bag...

Ed T

dont worry ed

 

[markmar]

There is also an encrypted text that describes the treasure site which is depicted in the museum stone maps. And this text is written in a letter which a woman by name Rosalee sent it to the writer R.G. Babcock. You can read the letter at https://hubpages.com/education/The-Lost-Aztec-Treasure , but I will post it here for easy reading:

" Lord Theodora Fleming and Lord John Henry Hinkle May 20, 1816

Dear sis, here it is as we go down with the Indian Chief Coatl, Having reached a gorge with almost vertical walls. Coatl led the way down, pointing out footings and hand-holds, opposite them on the other side of the chasm, you could see a bleak range of hills and you could hear a roar of cascades.
I was glad at last to be on the cañon floor, at this level of the gorge was lined with trees in blossoming. The roar was waterfall and trees with strange golden bark with twisted snakelike roots that made walking difficult. Coatl pointed at the opposite wall an enormous portal yawned perhaps 7 feet high and 150 feet wide, this arch looked as if it was built by hand, ?(Aserpo-de-Dios) house of God's Sacred, it is forbidden, I Chief Coatl have right to enter without fear. I do not fear to go in with you Theodora Fleming, John Henry Hinkle.
As I look in the giants castle behind vast doorway we crossing the stream on a series of rocks to vast doorway, by the light of the torches we could see that a tunnel like a corridor slanting down, you could feel the slope beneath my feets; Then suddenly at the foot of the decline my heart leaped to my throat a gigantic hall, one so vast that a cathedral would be lost in it. It was wonderful, but God knows whether mortal men have the right to look at such things;?
An enormous white goat stood before us, as big as a horse, when you get to it you turn left to a gigantic halls'. Stopped to light another torch as we was stop before a natural archway; Here we entering into another huge cavern; in it was high white pyramid step's going all the way to the top; The pyramid look like a robe as I look at it. I(t) was rusty coloring on the step's; I asked Coatl what it was he said it was blood; he pointed at a small dark mound some distance off has bones of many men;? Coatl led the way to a hollow space under the pyramid; a tunnel going down 25 ft long; The contents was gold in piles of grains and nuggets and ornaments; What a treasure if I live long en(ough) to get back to it; We was in the cavern 8 hours, you have to walk a long way back into the caverns; as I (don't) no any 1 white man to see it; as the Indians no were it is; to my sis Mrs Emley Fleming Hinkle "

If you can decrypt this letter, then you will find out where the Horse and the treasure of Santa Fe church lie.

 

[JohnWhite]

dont worry ed

I won't worry dave...I'll be happy...lol

Who knows daveMaybe one day I may break down and send you a little hailstone...But IF I were you...I'd not hold my breath...

Ed T