Both sides of Stone Maps Argument

[markmar]

Why would someone put that much work into carving the rocks that weren't a treasure?

Good point Poncho! As to if carving stone maps would take more time than drawing a map on a paper, there is a map which contradicts this philosophy. And this map is that with the " encrypted " words which had Celeste Jones and supposedly was found in a tube somewhere close to Weavers Needle.
What is the difficulty of this map? Of course are the " words " and everything depicted in it, which are nothing else but shapes depicted by rocks on the ground. You would ever imagine something like this?
What it's realy amazing in this map, it's how everything depicted in it, match perfectly in the field in regards to the scale of the map. This work shows an obsession of the map maker for the perfection and to make the map unique in regards to the region which would not be confused with another place, and also shows how he was not in a rush to finish this map.

 

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[azdave35]

Why would someone put that much work into carving the rocks that weren't a treasure?

poncho...a number of reasons...to throw off other treasure hunters....or bilk someone out of their hard earned money...or get revenge on your ex partner.(make him waste his life looking for a treasure that was never there)...or to immortalize himself and cement him a place in history...people are still talking about him and probably always will..what better way for a nobody to become a somebody?....everyone is looking to get their 15 minutes of fame....travis got himself an eternity of fame

 

[somehiker]

you trying to say someone made a treasure map so someone 10.000 years later could use it to find a treasure?...people make maps to treasure or mines so THEY can relocate it (or their family)...nobody would give a rats rear if someone 200 years later finds it...and if they did make that map so their kids could find the treasure they wouldn't have made it so cryptic (unless they hated their kids lol)...if you make a map so someone else can use it you would do it so they could decipher it without driving themselves nuts ..if you guys are going to be treasure hunters you should learn to think like one

No dave.....I don't think anyone would have been thinking THAT far ahead.
A couple of generations.....or several, if life had become very difficult in and around the region.

 

[azdave35]

No dave.....I don't think anyone would have been thinking THAT far ahead.
A couple of generations.....or several, if life had become very difficult in and around the region.

wayne..i think you are missing my point...why would someone go to that much trouble and time to carve stone maps if they were only thinking ahead a couple generations...if you are not an artist you don't realize how much work and time it takes to put that much detail in stone...this is just common sense...nobody would go through this much work if he didn't have ulterior motives...a simple paper map would do just fine

 

[Ponchosportal]

wayne..i think you are missing my point...why would someone go to that much trouble and time to carve stone maps if they were only thinking ahead a couple generations...if you are not an artist you don't realize how much work and time it takes to put that much detail in stone...this is just common sense...nobody would go through this much work if he didn't have ulterior motives...a simple paper map would do just fine

So a paper map would not suffice? Why all the work? treasure map or not?

Edit #1: Just seems like it would be so much easier to take a different pathway than carving rocks unless a rock was needed for some reason ..... like another/other rock(s) exist?

 

[Oroblanco]

View attachment 1795820

Can you post the whole page with this article? I looked on the LOC site and they don't have any issues for 1887. Thanks in advance;

Coazon de Oro wrote

Howdy Roy,

To begin with, the TC/G stone that Travis carved, is not a treasure map that leads anywhere with a need for a direction indicator. Please show me some of the other stones that you keep saying Travis carved.

Yes I know that the "nose rub" is a figure of speech it alludes to house breaking a puppy. I never put words in your mouth, these were your own words after wishing me to be fortunate to find treasure, "and that you will come back to rub my nose in it.........it won't bother me at all." It was you who believed I would do such a thing, I made it clear that I would never do that. I wouldn't do that to anyone for that matter, much less a friend.

Homar

Garry Cundiff posted photos of the carvings done by Travis on that 'other channel' a few years ago, I am sure you can pull them up if you wish. Please show me evidence that Travis Tumlinson did NOT carve the Peralta Stones, thanks in advance.

You missed the whole point of what I posted and changed my words in an important way, that I was 'thinking you would rub my nose in it' - when I had said I hoped you would return and post photos of the treasure you find. I never said I thought you would do that, only that I HOPED you would, which would prove the stone maps lead to treasure and you successfully found such treasure.

 

[JohnWhite]

So a paper map would not suffice? Why all the work? treasure map or not?

Edit #1: Just seems like it would be so much easier to take a different pathway than carving rocks unless a rock was needed for some reason ..... like another/other rock(s) exist?

People have been carving things which they believe were of importance since man began to record stuff they believed were of importance...Heck...We probably got the idea from the 10 commandments...Who can say for certain...There have been stone carvers who probably did nothing more than creating stones with things that were of importance to them at the time...

Oh well...I guess it was not meant to be...It would be something IF I have been to what some ancients called heaven...And what IF it is related to Revelation 11:19IF it is God's will...One day we may come to know IF this is the case...Here is a good example of ancients and their belief of what they called heaven... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna

Ed T

 

[coazon de oro]

Plain and simple, a paper map would not survive being buried even overnight if in monsoon season.

 

[azdave35]

Can you post the whole page with this article? I looked on the LOC site and they don't have any issues for 1887. Thanks in advance;

Coazon de Oro wrote


Garry Cundiff posted photos of the carvings done by Travis on that 'other channel' a few years ago, I am sure you can pull them up if you wish. Please show me evidence that Travis Tumlinson did NOT carve the Peralta Stones, thanks in advance.

You missed the whole point of what I posted and changed my words in an important way, that I was 'thinking you would rub my nose in it' - when I had said I hoped you would return and post photos of the treasure you find. I never said I thought you would do that, only that I HOPED you would, which would prove the stone maps lead to treasure and you successfully found such treasure.

roy..i have been asking these guys for evidence for years that travis did not carve the stones and none of them seem to have any...

 

[azdave35]

Plain and simple, a paper map would not survive being buried even overnight if in monsoon season.

homar....there are dozens of very old paper maps that have survived hundreds of years and are still in existence today...and you don't bury a paper map...you put it in your pocket..lol

 

[releventchair]

homar....there are dozens of very old paper maps that have survived hundreds of years and are still in existence today...and you don't bury a paper map...you put it in your pocket..lol

Paper in pocket worked out fine for Ruth...

 

[azdave35]

Paper in pocket worked out fine for Ruth...

ruth's problem was he had loose lips and no patience

 

[releventchair]

ruth's problem was he had loose lips and no patience

Enough sand gets low in the hourglass , patience can get scarce.

Yes , he was apparently not too taciturn.

 

[gollum]

Hey Everybody,

Most all of these questions have already been answered in the 23-odd pages of this thread. Buuuuut.............

Q: Why Carve Treasure Maps into rocks when paper is easier?

A1: As I ORIGINALLY THOUGHT, if the Stone Maps were carved by the Jesuits. They knew the time of their suppression was coming as early as about five years prior. They had already been rounded up and kicked out of almost every country and colony on Earth for their getting involved in political intrigues and assassinations/attempts. They knew (correctly) that when arrested they wouldn't be allowed to bring anything extra (especially since all their liquid assets will have disappeared at the time of their arrests). Getting caught with maps to their hidden treasures would NOT have been an option. Carve the maps onto stones and leave them either as floorstones in a mission (Arizpe), or hidden near Queen Creek. Even if it took them 200 years to return, the maps would still be there.

A2: Travis may have carved the Stone Maps as a retirement bonus. Unfortunately, he had no way of knowing he would get cancer in the late 1950s. He carved the Stone Maps using the "Ground Map" he got from his Grandfather John "Pegleg" Tumlinson (we know that). It MAY have been an authentic treasure map! Buuuuuut, why would he keep them MOSTLY a secret from 1949 until sometime in the 1950s? Imagine he carved several other items (Stone Crosses, Latin Heart, and who knows what else). He keeps his stone maps somewhat a secret, and lets other people find his "other" hidden items. Those items would provide provenance for his Stone Maps, making them worth millions instead of a couple of thousand (with no provenance).

It is also known that Travis carved more than one set of Stone Maps. Which set did his family see him carving?

Travis told his friend in Oregon that he had carved additional symbols on the Stone Maps in case they were stolen. Is that what his family saw him carving?

I came to the opinion that there are too many holes/possibilities in the story we know now to spend a lot of time chasing a "slim possibility". Too many chances to waste valuable time chasing bullsquat. If you are an armchair treasure hunter, then fine. No big loss except your time. If you are a "boots on the ground" treasure hunter, then you shouldn't risk what time you have without a LOT of verifiable evidence. There are a million different treasure stories with varying degrees of provenance. I could spend the rest of my life jumping between a hundred of them. What a serious person does is look at all those stories. Spend some time researching, and seeing which ones most probably exist, and which ones you might stand a chance of finding. The Stone Maps aren't in either of those categories...............no matter what you personally hope. No matter what you previously believed. I was one of you, but new evidence and common sense moved the Stone Maps into the "too iffy" column to spend a lot of time on them.

Mike

 

[deducer]

Deducer wrote

Actually your 'facts' did not really prove anything either, because your original questions were mostly asking things we can not know - what someone knew, or believed etc. The fact that so many were convinced the Peralta stones are real does not make them real - people are too easily fooled.

Yes they did, Roy. For example, you said it was not possible for us to know what Travis was doing in the Superstitions- he could have just been hunting arrowheads for all we know.

In fact, from his letters, his manuscript, and his photos, and secondary sources, we do know he was treasure hunting in the Superstitions. There is a photo of him and Phillip Leasman at the foothill of the Supers, holding the ground map.

You are just ignoring all that.

We have the conclusions of Father Charles Polzer, SJ, whom examined said stones and pronounced them modern forgeries, and Desert Archaeology Inc, that also reached the same conclusions. The state of Arizona, when the legal dust up was going on concerning the stone maps, classified them as "curiosities" rather than antiquities, which also says something. Conversely, didn't Scott Wolter examine the Peralta stones and pronounce them genuine, but not necessarily maps to a gold mine?
Toss into that factoring that Travis Tumlinson definitely liked to carve stones, including the chimney of the family home.

Really, Roy? Polzer? The verysame person that you castigated so many times in the Jesuit treasure thread? Did you forget that this person who so loudly proclaimed there was no Jesuit treasure, flew to Mexico to claim a lost mine for his organization and caused so much trouble he was kicked out of the country and lost his luggage in the process.

There is no evidence that TT was the one who carved the chimney. It could have been Phillip Leasman for all we know, who did that. The only reason that we associate TT with those carvings is because Gary was told by the family that TT did those carvings.

Again, not first hand testimony. The family that spoke to Gary and others today, did not witness Travis doing anything. They are relying on what they were told, two or three generations removed.

Well family members informed Garry Cundiff (if memory serves that is his last name) that Travis carved the stone maps. Are we now saying that Gary lied, or that the Tumlinson family members he spoke to lied?

Gary Cundiff has only passed on what he was told. Like the top-notch researcher he is, he just lays out the facts and lets the reader draw their own conclusions.

It is all too easy to forget that none of the family that Gary spoke to were alive when Travis was hunting. Even his own daughter was too young to know anything. So everything the family told Gary or anyone else is not first hand testimony.

Also you are ignoring two other possible reasons for Travis to have carved the stone maps.

1 Fraud - to get investors or bilk someone out of money (I doubt this but it is possible)

Again, there is no evidence TT ever attempted to do so. Did you read the Peck investigation letters? My guess is no.

2 Pious Fraud - creating something he believed SHOULD exist. This kind of thing was very common in the Medeival age, of course mostly all religious relics but including whole books written under the name of famous Biblican patriarchs like the Testament of Abraham etc when Abraham never saw that document. People were flocking to pray to the bones of St Rosalia for many years only until it was discovered that the bones were those of a goat. A "pious fraud" doesn't necessarily mean religious, nor necessarily that it was intended to cheat money out of people, just like people are buying modern replica Viking and Roman swords - the guys making them are in effect making 'pious frauds' as there is a demand for it. Thankfully they are not pretending these modern replicas are the genuine article.

Then why waste all that time traveling to the Superstitions from Hood River, Oregon, over the course of 15 plus years of his life, even when his health was starting to fail him, near the end?

He could have just perpetuated the fraud from the comforts of his home.

 

[deducer]

No dave.....I don't think anyone would have been thinking THAT far ahead.
A couple of generations.....or several, if life had become very difficult in and around the region.

I am now of the persuasion, based on what I've seen from several sources, including from our pal Real de Tayopa on Tayopa, that this was something started on day one.

Originally functioning as an almacen or a bank from which deposits or withdrawals were made, and at the end, suddenly converted into a sealed vault.

You, yourself have seen how the area to which the Stones refer to, had outgrew it's original capacity, and how and where further deposits may have been made. This to me, is something that would span a good amount of time.

 

[sdcfia]

Hey Everybody,

Most all of these questions have already been answered in the 23-odd pages of this thread. Buuuuut.............

Q: Why Carve Treasure Maps into rocks when paper is easier?

A1: As I ORIGINALLY THOUGHT, if the Stone Maps were carved by the Jesuits. They knew the time of their suppression was coming as early as about five years prior. They had already been rounded up and kicked out of almost every country and colony on Earth for their getting involved in political intrigues and assassinations/attempts. They knew (correctly) that when arrested they wouldn't be allowed to bring anything extra (especially since all their liquid assets will have disappeared at the time of their arrests). Getting caught with maps to their hidden treasures would NOT have been an option. Carve the maps onto stones and leave them either as floorstones in a mission (Arizpe), or hidden near Queen Creek. Even if it took them 200 years to return, the maps would still be there.

A2: Travis may have carved the Stone Maps as a retirement bonus. Unfortunately, he had no way of knowing he would get cancer in the late 1950s. He carved the Stone Maps using the "Ground Map" he got from his Grandfather John "Pegleg" Tumlinson (we know that). It MAY have been an authentic treasure map! Buuuuuut, why would he keep them MOSTLY a secret from 1949 until sometime in the 1950s? Imagine he carved several other items (Stone Crosses, Latin Heart, and who knows what else). He keeps his stone maps somewhat a secret, and lets other people find his "other" hidden items. Those items would provide provenance for his Stone Maps, making them worth millions instead of a couple of thousand (with no provenance).

It is also known that Travis carved more than one set of Stone Maps. Which set did his family see him carving?

Travis told his friend in Oregon that he had carved additional symbols on the Stone Maps in case they were stolen. Is that what his family saw him carving?

I came to the opinion that there are too many holes/possibilities in the story we know now to spend a lot of time chasing a "slim possibility". Too many chances to waste valuable time chasing bullsquat. If you are an armchair treasure hunter, then fine. No big loss except your time. If you are a "boots on the ground" treasure hunter, then you shouldn't risk what time you have without a LOT of verifiable evidence. There are a million different treasure stories with varying degrees of provenance. I could spend the rest of my life jumping between a hundred of them. What a serious person does is look at all those stories. Spend some time researching, and seeing which ones most probably exist, and which ones you might stand a chance of finding. The Stone Maps aren't in either of those categories...............no matter what you personally hope. No matter what you previously believed. I was one of you, but new evidence and common sense moved the Stone Maps into the "too iffy" column to spend a lot of time on them.

Mike

Good post, especially the last paragraph. Unless a person is fortunate enough to have somehow acquired bonafide proprietary information, there is nothing available in the public domain that warrants a rigorous ground search for treasure in the Superstitions, IMO.

Re Travis's stone maps, I tend to side with what releventchair recently mentioned a couple times: the stones very well could simply be decoys. Travis seems to have been an erratic, probably paranoid guy who allegedly spent a lot of time in the Superstitions because he believed he had the real deal treasure map(s) from grandpa. He certainly had the ability to carve the stones himself, and there's no reason for him to do so, then "discover" them himself, other than some sort of ruse - a misdirection of some sort, IMO. There may be some information on some of the stones that pertain to central Arizona, but obviously not enough to satisfy searchers, IMO. By the way, it seems obvious to me that the horse map has to do with southern New Mexico, not Arizona.

 

[azdave35]

Hey Everybody,

Most all of these questions have already been answered in the 23-odd pages of this thread. Buuuuut.............

Q: Why Carve Treasure Maps into rocks when paper is easier?

A1: As I ORIGINALLY THOUGHT, if the Stone Maps were carved by the Jesuits. They knew the time of their suppression was coming as early as about five years prior. They had already been rounded up and kicked out of almost every country and colony on Earth for their getting involved in political intrigues and assassinations/attempts. They knew (correctly) that when arrested they wouldn't be allowed to bring anything extra (especially since all their liquid assets will have disappeared at the time of their arrests). Getting caught with maps to their hidden treasures would NOT have been an option. Carve the maps onto stones and leave them either as floorstones in a mission (Arizpe), or hidden near Queen Creek. Even if it took them 200 years to return, the maps would still be there.

A2: Travis may have carved the Stone Maps as a retirement bonus. Unfortunately, he had no way of knowing he would get cancer in the late 1950s. He carved the Stone Maps using the "Ground Map" he got from his Grandfather John "Pegleg" Tumlinson (we know that). It MAY have been an authentic treasure map! Buuuuuut, why would he keep them MOSTLY a secret from 1949 until sometime in the 1950s? Imagine he carved several other items (Stone Crosses, Latin Heart, and who knows what else). He keeps his stone maps somewhat a secret, and lets other people find his "other" hidden items. Those items would provide provenance for his Stone Maps, making them worth millions instead of a couple of thousand (with no provenance).

It is also known that Travis carved more than one set of Stone Maps. Which set did his family see him carving?

Travis told his friend in Oregon that he had carved additional symbols on the Stone Maps in case they were stolen. Is that what his family saw him carving?

I came to the opinion that there are too many holes/possibilities in the story we know now to spend a lot of time chasing a "slim possibility". Too many chances to waste valuable time chasing bullsquat. If you are an armchair treasure hunter, then fine. No big loss except your time. If you are a "boots on the ground" treasure hunter, then you shouldn't risk what time you have without a LOT of verifiable evidence. There are a million different treasure stories with varying degrees of provenance. I could spend the rest of my life jumping between a hundred of them. What a serious person does is look at all those stories. Spend some time researching, and seeing which ones most probably exist, and which ones you might stand a chance of finding. The Stone Maps aren't in either of those categories...............no matter what you personally hope. No matter what you previously believed. I was one of you, but new evidence and common sense moved the Stone Maps into the "too iffy" column to spend a lot of time on them.

Mike

mike just hit the nail right on the head

 

[deducer]

I came to the opinion that there are too many holes/possibilities in the story we know now to spend a lot of time chasing a "slim possibility". Too many chances to waste valuable time chasing bullsquat. If you are an armchair treasure hunter, then fine. No big loss except your time. If you are a "boots on the ground" treasure hunter, then you shouldn't risk what time you have without a LOT of verifiable evidence. There are a million different treasure stories with varying degrees of provenance. I could spend the rest of my life jumping between a hundred of them. What a serious person does is look at all those stories. Spend some time researching, and seeing which ones most probably exist, and which ones you might stand a chance of finding. The Stone Maps aren't in either of those categories...............no matter what you personally hope. No matter what you previously believed. I was one of you, but new evidence and common sense moved the Stone Maps into the "too iffy" column to spend a lot of time on them.

Mike

A well thought out deliberation, and one that I would have readily agreed to, if I hadn't been shown the site in question. In fairness to others, not in 10,000 years would I have ever discovered it on my own, because of the nature of the location, how it is camouflaged, and the lack of obvious signs.

It is completely impossible to determine the location of the site to which the maps refer to, from the Stone Maps alone. There are no significant landmarks on it.

As I have mentioned several times, what's perhaps the foremost genius thing about the whole thing is that without the location, the Stone Maps are useless, but also, without the Stone Maps, the location is useless.

And as it is, I find myself in the rare, and exceptional position of working backwards from the answer to the questions.

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes they did, Roy. For example, you said it was not possible for us to know what Travis was doing in the Superstitions- he could have just been hunting arrowheads for all we know.

In fact, from his letters, his manuscript, and his photos, and secondary sources, we do know he was treasure hunting in the Superstitions. There is a photo of him and Phillip Leasman at the foothill of the Supers, holding the ground map.

You are just ignoring all that.

I wasn't with Travis, and doubt that you were either. We can't know what he was doing - he could have been chasing butterflies for all we know. It is not possible to KNOW for a certainty what he was doing or for that matter, NOT doing.

Deducer also wrote

Really, Roy? Polzer? The verysame person that you castigated so many times in the Jesuit treasure thread? Did you forget that this person who so loudly proclaimed there was no Jesuit treasure, flew to Mexico to claim a lost mine for his organization and caused so much trouble he was kicked out of the country and lost his luggage in the process.

Yes father Charles Polzer SJ. Polzer is a well respected historian on Arizona history. He is definitely open to question concerning Jesuit treasures and mines, for as a Jesuit he had a personal bias and was sworn to defend his Order, which could color his statements. All that said - there is nothing on the Peralta stones that is specifically and undeniably Jesuit at all. Christian crosses yes, a figure that could be a priest maybe, it could be a witch - but really nothing on them indicates any direct linkage to the Jesuit order or to the Catholic church for that matter. So his opinion should not be thrown out on the grounds that he was a Jesuit since these stone maps are not proven to be Jesuit.

Deducer also wrote

There is no evidence that TT was the one who carved the chimney. It could have been Phillip Leasman for all we know, who did that. The only reason that we associate TT with those carvings is because Gary was told by the family that TT did those carvings.

Again, not first hand testimony. The family that spoke to Gary and others today, did not witness Travis doing anything. They are relying on what they were told, two or three generations removed.



Gary Cundiff has only passed on what he was told. Like the top-notch researcher he is, he just lays out the facts and lets the reader draw their own conclusions.

It is all too easy to forget that none of the family that Gary spoke to were alive when Travis was hunting. Even his own daughter was too young to know anything. So everything the family told Gary or anyone else is not first hand testimony.




Again, there is no evidence TT ever attempted to do so.

Travis certainly liked to carve stones, unless we are now going to say that some transient wandering Jesuit or Spanish stone carver came and carved the chimney of the house! I see no reason to doubt Garry Cundiff's statements. How do you know who your daddy is, because your momma told you so - to misquote a famous movie of recent years. Travis liked to carve stones, and just COINCIDENTALLY he just happens to have these Peralta stone maps? Really?

Deducer also wrote

Did you read the Peck investigation letters? My guess is no.

I did not answer this earlier quite by oversight, my apologies. I believed that I had indeed read the Peck investigation letters and thought copies were stored on my wife's computer. Unfortunately it has been years and we have changed computers several times in the meantime and I cannot locate it. I can't remember details from the letters but can remember thinking it was building a fairly strong case for the stone maps being genuine. Unfortunately since then we have learned of Travis having a penchant for carving stones.


Deducer also wrote

Then why waste all that time traveling to the Superstitions from Hood River, Oregon, over the course of 15 plus years of his life, even when his health was starting to fail him, near the end?

He could have just perpetuated the fraud from the comforts of his home.

I repeat, we do NOT know the real reason(s) why Travis might have been traveling from Oregon to the Superstitions. It is not possible to KNOW for an absolute certainty at this point in time. I would point out that the Superstition mountains are famous for a lost gold mine, the Lost Dutchman, along with several other lost mines and treasures like the lost Waggoner mine or the cave of gold bars, which were in public knowledge at that time and Travis certainly could have known about them. He could have been searching for the lost Dutchman mine, and simply told others he was following the stone maps. We can't know today. If there were NO other known lost mines or treasures in the Superstitions, I would concede that his only possible reason to be spending time in the Superstitions then HAD to be the stone maps. However there are multiple other possibilities.

I am beating the dead horse here, so will let it go with this. Many others have believed they had solved the Peralta stones, and searched the Superstitions to find the treasure(s) and/or mines they believed the stone maps would lead them to. So far, none have successfully found any treasure(s) and or mines to prove their solution was the right one. To make matters worse, other treasure hunters, bored cowboys and even tourists have been making fake inscriptions and signs all over the Superstitions since at least the 1930s. A treasure hunter today is very likely to find signs and symbols to fit his own theory of the stone maps, which however are modern fakery and won't lead to anything of value.

Also have to agree with SDCFIA that the Horse 'map' more properly should be applied to New Mexico. I agree with Mike as well on his conclusion that the stone maps origin tales are just too 'iffy' at this point.

All this said - I hope that you (anyone whom believes the stone maps are the genuine article) will go out and find a treasure, and come back to post photos of it and prove me and the other skeptics all wrong. It would be great to see one treasure map proven to be real. Unfortunately there has to be a fatal flaw in every one in public circulation because they are not leading anyone to finding treasures or lost mines.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco