Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell me.

[sonofmitch]

I found this several years ago near Victoria Texas on the San Antonio river. It's made of brass or bronze and is about 11 inches across and is approximately 1/8 thick. It stands 5 inches high and has a center hole that is 3 inches in diameter. There are six other 5/8 inch holes with one in each corner of its hexagonal shape. These holes are made such that if something were inserted into them that object would stand vertically and not at any other angle than 90 degrees. It appears to be Spanish or French just 'cause I want it to be.
The way it was made was by making 6 identical pieces that were bent to the same shape to make each of the six sides and joined with rivets through the decorative strips that cover each seam. I would say that it's off of a ship, from a mission, or off of a carriage. Surely not a hubcap. Maybe a decorative base for a flagpole Then why the little holes. Six flags over Texas?? Looks hammered into shape. Each of the six pieces at one time had other pieces riveted to them which would have stuck our from the edges that you see now.

Any ideas?? Anyone

 

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[sonofmitch]

See, I'm thinking that this piece is not designed to keep water out as well. I'm thinking that it was something that was put on a finished roof. Purely decoration. No function. Just as a fineale that would be no more waterproof than a cross that might be made to fit it.
Anything like a chandelier (I presume) is usually made from what I would call sheet metal. This is not what I would call sheet metal construction. It is just to thick for that. Something made from sheet would have the same surface texture on both sides. The pieces that comprise this "thing" have been smoothed on the outside but the inside surfaces are very course and have not been finished.

1. It was completely buried. Nothing protruding. Flat ground no mound.
2. Sitting upright a couple of inches from surface to top of "it".
3. It was on the edge of the dirt road on the property, not in or between the vehicle tracks. Just on the shoulder that was clear because of the dirt road.
4. It was about 380 yards from the river itself. However it was only 50 yard from where the terrain drops off sharply towards the river.
5. I found it with my detector.
6. The ground in the area shows no signs of being plowed. Either side of this "road" there was lots of mesquite bushes.
Picture of what I mean below.

Mitch

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

See, I'm thinking that this piece is not designed to keep water out as well. I'm thinking that it was something that was put on a finished roof. Purely decoration. No function. Just as a fineale that would be no more waterproof than a cross that might be made to fit it.

The problem with your theory is that you would need to fasten it down. Any nail or bolt hole into the roof will cause a leak. Ask any roofer. Ask my brother. A few tiny nail holes on his deck and his ceiling caved in underneath. You may be surprised how much water can enter through a nail hole. You would be compromising the integrity of the roof to fasten this in the manner you describe.

Anything like a chandelier (I presume) is usually made from what I would call sheet metal. This is not what I would call sheet metal construction. It is just to thick for that. Something made from sheet would have the same surface texture on both sides. The pieces that comprise this "thing" have been smoothed on the outside but the inside surfaces are very course and have not been finished.

Sounds like its cast. I would presume old chandelier parts are also heavy cast brass.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

1. It was completely buried. Nothing protruding. Flat ground no mound.
2. Sitting upright a couple of inches from surface to top of "it".
3. It was on the edge of the dirt road on the property, not in or between the vehicle tracks. Just on the shoulder that was clear because of the dirt road.
4. It was about 380 yards from the river itself. However it was only 50 yard from where the terrain drops off sharply towards the river.
5. I found it with my detector.
6. The ground in the area shows no signs of being plowed. Either side of this "road" there was lots of mesquite bushes.

Thanks for the details of the find. Sounds as if you found it in a rural area. It almost sounds as if it came off a tractor or fell out of a truck. Could it be a brass shifter boot lol? Is there such a thing?

 

[sonofmitch]

It's been many years since I found this and I don't really remember what else I found except for the candlestick pictured earlier and some gun parts. Now though i can't remember what gun parts they were. Also a Civil War era button which means nothing to me. You have to understand that I never thought that I found the actual site that I was looking for. I went back to the "area" several times but the things I did find were scattered. I know there is a site there and it dates from 1820's. I was just finding periphery items. I found some old glass and I found some square nails and I think I remember a spanish coin but I don't really want to commit to being sure about that. I did find what is pictured below but I don't think that will help. I don't know what it is. That could be a totally new subject.
I'm in the middle of posting this but I got another response from bigcypress. Cypie, I guess my roof explanation needs some explanation itself. Actuall roof is not exactly the right terminology I guess. This would have mounted to a frontal facade of the building. That would probably be made of stone. No leaks
Mitch

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It sure looks like a roof piece but Im assuming the holes are for mounting and I would think it would have to be tarred over to keep from leaking. Maybe old old roofs were made different or always leaked. Im going to show the pic to my roofer when I get a chance just to see what he says.

 

[SkyPirate]

Not the holy grail, sorry.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

Some food for thought outside of the box.

Being as your find has not been positively idendified yet, I thought it might help to point out that your item "might" be older than you think. You have stated yourself that you believe it to be of Spanish influence/origin, and possibly from the early 1800s. I agree with you that it has all the earmarks of looking Spanish, and that it is definitely old. But let's not forget that the Spanish exploration into what was then part of Mexico started as early as the late 1600s, with the Alamo itself being built in 1718. The battle of the Alamo as it's called today was in 1836. So it's possible, just possible that your dome item may date back to as early as sometime in the 1700s! Totally speculative, I agree. But at this point who can say for sure one way or the other?

SBB

P.S. I am sending e-mail inquires to every notable museum in the state of
Texas. I have already sent out about thirty, with about forty more to go! I'll
eventually let you know about the responses I receive. Additonally, and just
for the fun of it, the photo below is the oldest known photograph of the Alamo,
taken in 1849 before it was rebuilt and restored by the U.S. Army in 1850.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

P.S. I am sending Email inquires to every notable museum in the state of
Texas. I have already sent out about thirty, with about forty to go! I'll
eventually let you know about the responses I receive.

Sounds like we may get an answer. You pick the tough ones to try and solve.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

...I did find what is pictured below but I don't think that will help. I don't know what it is. That could be a totally new subject.

I wish you could post better pics. Second pic is blurry. Is it steel, silver or pewter? It looks like a bell or horse concho.

 

[sonofmitch]

Bob, Cypress, etc.
Actually I also think that it is older than 1800. I only say that to say "no later than". I realize that it may go back much farther. The Nunez expedition with Cabaza de Vaca was the earliest European to arrive. Not that I'm suggesting that. I also use that date because it is associated with the Spanish Rancho that was known to be in the area. Since this was found on the periphery of this site it may have nothing to do with it.
Bigcypress, the concho looking thing is silver. I will try to get better pictures when I get home today. It has three loops on the back which look like attachment points and a hold in the center where it looks like something else attached to it. Since it's so large I didn't think it was a concho but a medallion or pin or or or or.........
Whatever was in the center would have been no larger than the most interior circle of decoration. Otherwise what would be the point of the decoration? It's definitely not a bell. It's fairly flat or was intended to be flat. Just a crimped up edge around the border.


Here is some more better pictuers of the silver thingy.
Mitch

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

I thought I would post this update on the eleven responses I have received thus far from the forty eight e-mail inquiries that I sent out over the past couple of days.

As it turns out (so far, anyway) it appears that museum curators and various other experts are as varied in their opinions of what your item is as we here at TreasureNet have been. Not a single one said they knew for certain what it was, and all who responded with something positive to say, said they were "just guessing." A couple of them responded by saying they could not assist us due to "legal matters." One even expounded on this by saying they had gotten into a legal dispute in the past for incorrectly identifying an item that was apparently worth a considerable amount of money, the ensuing consequences of which were devastating.

However, don't despair, as the jury is still out. But I will say that the majority of the responses seem to lean toward the item as being an "interior fixture" as opposed to "exterior." Although this interior theory includes everything from a cast iron wood stove part, to a chandelier part, to a base of some kind to support "they didn't know what." One curator said he thought it might even be a mount for something like a Gatling gun! So take your pick!

Hopefully my next posting will have something more definite to report. All it takes is one e-mail to the right person and the mystery will be solved. (Maybe)

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

You put in a lot of work on this SodaBob and should be applauded for your efforts. Too bad the result so far is nothing definitive.

Why do you pick the hardest ones to solve?

Looking forward to the next few responses.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

bigcypresshunter ~

Thank you for the recognition. Although I'm not sure it is entirely deserved. But these days I will take whatever I can get. The real kudos go to sonofmitch for having found the item in the first place, and for his unselfish sharing of it here on TreasureNet. (Although I can't help but teasingly wonder if we would have been better off never having seen the darn thing!)

The reason I'm so obsessed with this particular topic goes back to the day when Mitch first posted it. The very first thing that struck me was that it looked like one of those Spanish Conquistador chest plates. I realize it's not a piece of armor, but it just hit me that way. And from that point on, (especially following Mitch's various testimonies as to where it was found, etc.) I can't shake the idea that it is of Spanish design and origin. Which to me, would in fact be like finding the Holy Grail! Of course, it might still turn out to be something entirely different than any one of us suspects ... We may never know!

SO"DUH"BOB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Additionally ...

I don't think anyone would be entirely traveling down the wrong path if they wanted to contiune researching the "Chandelier Theory!" I fully realize this has already been suggested, but to post a neverending slurry of "similar looking" chandeliers would, in my opinon, be like posting a photo of an everyday dime and saying it was "similar" to a Mercury dime. That would be like suggesting the item came out of an old 1920s dime store, when it may very well have come out of a 1700s Spanish mission. I have looked at dozens upon dozens of chandeliers, and as yet have not found a match. It may very well be a chandlier part, but may I suggest the focus be on those that have a solid Spanish influence? Case in point is the attached photo. But aside from this one I will not post any additional photos unless they are an exact match or indisputable in some other regard.

Thanks, and good hunting!

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I posted the closest chandelier examples I could find and I dont plan on posting anymore unless its a closer match or will help in any way. I think thats a given. 8)

As your example shows, they are often heavy cast brass.

Did you suggest to the museum curators that we thought it was a chandelier ceiling part or did they guess this on their own?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

bigcy ~

I suggested various ideas, including chandelier. I didn't want to plant too many ideas in their heads so as to get unbiased opinions. I suspect that if and when it is ever identified it may very well come from an individual who just flat out knows what it is! And I go on record here and now and offically state, "It ain't me!" But like Mitch said earlier, "I'm like a Snapping turtle that just won't let go!" (I believe Gila Monsters do the same thing).

Here are a couple of examples of the e-mail responses I got.

The consensus of opinion among our archeological stewards at MCB is that this is a footing/base of some kind, possibly for a lamp post.

If someone wishes to pursue the lamp post suggeston, please do so. I looked into myself but could not find a single lamp post with a diameter of three inches. Most were at least five-plus inches in diameter!

~

Thank you for your email to the National Park Service mailbox. We regret that we cannot help you.

I got four similar to this one.


Bob

 

[Bramblefind]

I was just coming here to post a chandelier pic and I see you are on the subject anyway. Thought this idea looked interesting- bigger view of that bottom piece is at the link

A Spanish Renaissance Revival Bronze Chandelier

http://www.vol1antiques.com/store/furniture_item_detail.php?id=253177

 

[Broken knee]

sonofmitch, I'm almost sorry that I suggested that (imo) it was a roof finial. But i do believe the one to answer
this what's it will be an architect, Maybe there is one near you familiar with ether Spanish, or just craftsmen style
architectural designs that you can talk with. Good luck in your quest.
Broken Knee

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

Here's one of several responses I received this morning, with this being the most interesting of the lot. In one of the other messages a curator included a list of about a dozen possibilities, and then ended up saying she really didn't know what it was and was only guessing. I get a lot of "guessers," but nothing of interest that hasn't previously been suggested. I have already contacted the Texas Historical Commission, plus a couple of other institutions that were suggested to me, and which may prove hopeful. I'm personally excited about the THC , as they seem to be the one's who may truly know their stuff! (We'll see!) Here's their link for anyone interested in checking them out.

http://www.thc.state.tx.us/index.shtml

SODABOB

Copy and pasted message received this morning; (From a museum curator).

This looks like a mount for a support pillar on some type of structure. You may want to contact the Texas Historical Commission on this, as they have a number of volunteer archaeoligists who could not only identify this, but would probably be interested in viewing it personally. The site you took it from may also need to be recorded and studied for gathering historical information.

 

[relichunters]

Re: Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell

Looks like one of the decor pieces on top of very old building structures.