Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell me.

[sonofmitch]

I found this several years ago near Victoria Texas on the San Antonio river. It's made of brass or bronze and is about 11 inches across and is approximately 1/8 thick. It stands 5 inches high and has a center hole that is 3 inches in diameter. There are six other 5/8 inch holes with one in each corner of its hexagonal shape. These holes are made such that if something were inserted into them that object would stand vertically and not at any other angle than 90 degrees. It appears to be Spanish or French just 'cause I want it to be.
The way it was made was by making 6 identical pieces that were bent to the same shape to make each of the six sides and joined with rivets through the decorative strips that cover each seam. I would say that it's off of a ship, from a mission, or off of a carriage. Surely not a hubcap. Maybe a decorative base for a flagpole Then why the little holes. Six flags over Texas?? Looks hammered into shape. Each of the six pieces at one time had other pieces riveted to them which would have stuck our from the edges that you see now.

Any ideas?? Anyone

 

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[lairmo]

hmmmmmm?.......

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

sonofmitch -

You have me convinced the "item" you found is a Spanish relic! And although it may take some time and effort to positively identify it, if it can in fact be determined to be related to the early Spanish migration into Texas, you may very well have a significant find on your hands. A find not only of interest to individuals like myself, but to historians as well. Of course, at this point it still hinges on a substantial amount of speculation, but I believe there is enough evidence to support a continued search. The primary evidence I'm referring to is the item itself, and it's features of having been crudely constructed as you previously mentioned.

Maybe I (we) are wrong on all accounts, and are caught up in nothing more than hopeful speculation, but I still think it's worth a shot to investigate further. Maybe if/when you hear back from the Alamo curator, it will cast some much needed light on the subject. And don't be disappointed if he should respond by saying it's just a Victorian chandelier canopy, because even that in itself would be a pretty cool find.

In closing I would like to let you know that my current research deals with the origin and distrubution of early mission ornaments, including bells and other bronze items and how they came to Texas. It's clear so far that there was a great deal of Spanish activity throughout the southwest as early as the late 1600s. The battle of the Alamo, as you know, was in 1836. And although the bells and similar items were not neccessarily forged at the missions themselves, and were either made in Mexico or Spain, every mission did have it's own blacksmith shop that was capable of making any variety of things. It amazes me how much activity there actually was between Texas, Mexico and Spain at the time. One thing is certain, those old missions were chuck full of ornamental bronze items from top to bottom, including bells, crosses, alters, chaneliers, fountains, gates, and the list goes on and on!

I hope we're not on a wild goose chase here, and will wait patiently to see this thing solved. And if you feel my contributions, and so called discoveries are without merit, please let me know and I will dicontinue my search at your request.

"Via Con Dios"

SODABOB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Theres a lot to read here. Ill have to study it when I have have a day off with more time.

Maybe Ill have my roofer friend look at it. He has worked on older buildings.

 

[cwdigger]

Well you can always go with the old saying " you found it, you call it" Great find, dont have a clue though

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

sonofmitch -

To serve as a launching pad of sorts in your continuing search for a positive identification of your item, I present you with this link to a website that deals specifically with mission architecture. You will discover that it primarily deals with California missions, but please note that it is agreed by historians throughout the southwest that all Spanish missions, although no two were exactly alike, had similar construction features. Within this site you will be exposed to a variety of new words and terms related to various features on and within any given mission. Such words as; pilasters - entablature - fachada - chamfer - campaniles - and lantern crown. Most of these words are new to me as well, and I apologize for my lack of expertise in this field. In any event, I hope you find it helpful as well as educational. Who knows, maybe one of these terms describes the relic you found. As an example I am posting a photo and it's accompaning text that I found on the site. Please note the specific use of the word "ornament." I just wish there were some available close-ups of all this "stuff."

http://artistfromhungary.tripod.com/colonial/


SODABOB

Text:

At the four corners of the tower stand simple but effective finial ornaments,

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

There has just become to much to read here and I think it will hurt any chances of solving this. Im still trying to figure out what this has to do with boat stringers and knees. I think we can all agree that its not a wooden knee but I cant figure out why several paragraphs are devoted to it.


I hope you take no offense here Bob, but it is not necessary to post pictures of every step of your research. If everyone did that, this post would be so cluttered that readers would become frustrated like I have and just give up after trying to wade through the continued ramblings. Try to stay on topic and refrain from posting long essays unless you have found something definitive. A few jokes here and there are OK. Iron in the dollar bill is interesting but start a new post. I didnt even get to the comic book picture. I cannot imagine what the connection could be. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE FOR IT. Im not wasting any more of my time here, sorry. My apologies Sonofmitch.

 

[Deepdiger60]

That looks like what used to be in a Tavern i used to go to back in the 60,s a Spittoon !!! they been outlawed since

 

[Justice70]

Ya know, I read the first 10 chapters of "For Whom the Tolls" and quit reading it because I could'nt get into it. No fanfare, no big to do,no calling the author and brandishing her for not entertaining me properly.I simply laid it down and was at peace with my decision.

P.s. And I paid for the book. This forum is free.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Ya know, I read the first 10 chapters of "For Whom the Tolls" and quit reading it because I could'nt get into it. No fanfare, no big to do,no calling the author and brandishing her for not entertaining me properly.I simply laid it down and was at peace with my decision.

P.s. And I paid for the book. This forum is free.

I understand if this thread was a novel for our entertainment, but it is not. Nobody is brandishing the author. The author (sonofmitch) is asking us for help with an ID. If we dont want to help, we dont post. Its not fair to hijack the thread for our personal entertainment. If we want to post about wooden knees, and comic book heros, we start a new post.

I see its being cleaned up as the comic book hero pic and wooden knee posts are already being removed. We do have some rules here that need to be followed for the good of all. The moderators have a tough job so we try to police ourselves.

 

[Tnmountains]

Re: Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell

Sorry it took so long to get back. I dug out an old lantern I have that was converted to gas then electric. I still think what you have is something similiar
Anyways here ya go.

 

[Justice70]

Please keep in mind that I am far from being an expert on any of this stuff but after looking at the pics again it occurred to me that all of the wholes are placed precisely over the seams which is held together by metal straps riveted in place. I do not know how they drilled holes back in the day that we are assuming that this thing was made but would they have been able to make these holes after the pc's were fitted without separating them and would the holes have been so perfect? Or did they have a way of making half holes in each pc. and then fitting them together to make a whole hole? Or perhaps is this pc. not as old as we are speculating that it is?

 

[sonofmitch]

Ok, here's what happened. For those of you who watch "Monk" on TV that's a Monk quote.
I now believe that this piece is either a roof cap for either a mission or a early (1800's) Spanish ranch's church now known to have been in the area or from a cross lantern mounted on the same. A couple of posts back BottleBob posted a picture of a mission roof with a cross on it. This concept was suggested by 72Cheyenne and misunderstood. Imagine if you will this "thing" crowning a roof like that with six sides instead of 4 sides. with the cross coming through the center hole. The other holes would have been mounting holes that would "bolt" through the support rafters on the corners instead of out on the thinner roofing boards that lie between the rafters.
Either that or a very similar "cross lantern" which is now known to have adorn many churches and missions. Apparently many of the mission exterior domes had an enclosed area (and some possibly not enclosed) where a so called Cross Lantern was mounted. They had a fairly large cross sticking out of them, and the priest used to burn either candles or oil in them. Again, these lanterns were on the very top of the mission and the priest had to climb a ladder or, in some cases, stairs to reach the lantern. I guess the lighting of the lantern had some religious significance. Maybe, (I repeat) "maybe" this explains the six large holes. "Maybe" they held candles. And "maybe" a cross stood in the center hole. This was suggested by BottleBob from a link that he found to such crossses.
Mitch

 

[Carolina Gold]

Decorative stack topper on a steam engine (Train part)

 

[sonofmitch]

Plehbah and the world,
I did find other artifacts at the site. It was a Mexican\Spanish ranch founded before the Texas Revolution. The pictures I am including with this post are of a candle stick that I found about 1000 yards away. Also found a Union breastplate and the pocketwatch lid that I also sent the picture of. The markings on it are of a Civil War soldier on a horse. Also found square nails, old glass, all the earmarks.

 

[sonofmitch]

The site was occupied from approximately 1800 to 1888. I will have to locate the pocketwatch lid. The picture I sent is from my website. http://www.sonofmitch.com I don't remember any markings.

Mitch

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Nice post.
Well You, Sonofmitch.
So you found the Holy Grail. Should have known it would have been a fellow Texan who finally got that done!

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch -

In a genuine effort to assist you in the identification of your most unique find, I have compiled the following list summarizing what we know so far based on information you have provided us with. I will make every attempt not to speculate or interject any personal opinions and focus only on the facts. If any of the following is not correct, please let me know and I will adjust it accordingly.

Your History Detective Friend,

Bob

1. The item was found about 100 miles south of San Antonio, Texas,
and about twenty miles from Victoria, Texas.
2. The item was found near the San Antonio river.
3. The item was found in a remote location.
4. The area where the item was found also produced other relics,
one of which was a cast candlestick, plus square nails and other
items, including a Union breastplate, and some old glass.
5. The item is constructed of either bronze or brass.
6. The item appears to be hand forged.
7. The item is designed with six individual plates that are held
together with straps which are hammer riveted and not screwed.
8. Although it is six sided, it measures approximately fifteen inches
square at the base.
9. The larger top hole is approximately three inches in diameter.
10. The six smaller holes around the base measure 5/8 inches in
diameter each.
11. You believe the item may be Spanish related, and possibly even
associated with one of the many missions that once, and still do
exist in the area, several of which are located near Goliad, Texas.
12. The site where the item was found was at one time the location of a
Spanish/Mexican ranch that was originally established before the Texas
revoloution of the early 1800s.

13. (Added 1-7-10) On the underside there are strips that are riveted on and appear
to be remnants of a larger collar or sheeting. The strips are approximately 1/8 inch
thick and are slightly "creased" as if to make it somewhat flexible. The jagged
outer edges of the strips appear to have been ripped off and not cut. At this point
it is impossible to say how far the original "sheet" may have extended around the
perimeter.
14. (Added 1-11-10) Part of an old wood stove.

If I have left anything out, please let me know.

By the way, I enjoyed your website. Good job!

SBB

 

[scratcher]

Plehbah and the world,
I did find other artifacts at the site. It was a Mexican\Spanish ranch founded before the Texas Revolution. The pictures I am including with this post are of a candle stick that I found about 1000 yards away. Also found a Union breastplate and the pocketwatch lid that I also sent the picture of. The markings on it are of a Civil War soldier on a horse. Also found square nails, old glass, all the earmarks.

Is this for sure a candlestick holder? I'm no expert, but my first thought would have been a chandelier piece.

oops, I forgot the pics don't travel down.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Plehbah and the world,
I did find other artifacts at the site. It was a Mexican\Spanish ranch founded before the Texas Revolution. The pictures I am including with this post are of a candle stick that I found about 1000 yards away. Also found a Union breastplate and the pocketwatch lid that I also sent the picture of. The markings on it are of a Civil War soldier on a horse. Also found square nails, old glass, all the earmarks.

Is this for sure a candlestick holder? I'm no expert, but my first thought would have been a chandelier piece.

oops, I forgot the pics don't travel down.

I have found pieces of brass beds that were mid to late 1800s that looked very similar to that item. What bothers me about the candlestick ID is that the item is hollow. If you'd like I am willing to post some of the brass bed pieces I've dug for reference.

Regards,


Buckles

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Maybe a decorative base for a flagpole Then why the little holes.

I dont know what it is, but I would think the 6 smaller holes are to fasten the item down.

Although it is thick brass, I dont think the design is strong enough to support a flag pole properly or anything else of any weight or length. The riveted strips look more for decorative purposes than for strength. I would guess decorative cover of some sort; such as the flashing around a roof vent. It may be a cover for some kind of pipe or vent. Just a guess.