Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell me.

[sonofmitch]

I found this several years ago near Victoria Texas on the San Antonio river. It's made of brass or bronze and is about 11 inches across and is approximately 1/8 thick. It stands 5 inches high and has a center hole that is 3 inches in diameter. There are six other 5/8 inch holes with one in each corner of its hexagonal shape. These holes are made such that if something were inserted into them that object would stand vertically and not at any other angle than 90 degrees. It appears to be Spanish or French just 'cause I want it to be.
The way it was made was by making 6 identical pieces that were bent to the same shape to make each of the six sides and joined with rivets through the decorative strips that cover each seam. I would say that it's off of a ship, from a mission, or off of a carriage. Surely not a hubcap. Maybe a decorative base for a flagpole Then why the little holes. Six flags over Texas?? Looks hammered into shape. Each of the six pieces at one time had other pieces riveted to them which would have stuck our from the edges that you see now.

Any ideas?? Anyone

 

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[sonofmitch]

Let's see if I can reply to everything.
I'm sure that it wouldn't support a flag pole on it's own either. Just thinking it might be a decorative cover for whatever was actually doing the supporting.
Not that the candle holder is really the topic but it's only 5 inches tall and not long or strong enough to be a bed post. I would rather have my candle stick hollow than my bed post.
Actually, I really suspect that the "thing" in question was from a church at a ranch founded about 1800. If that means it's not Spanish then so be it. When the wealthy Spaniard was no longer a Spaniard but a Mexican I don't know. Did he have to have an Indian mother? If the land was still in his fathers name would it still be Spanish or now Mexican? Maybe is should follow the date of Mexican independence. All Spaniards were Mexicans as of 1821. The archetectural similarity to Spainish artifacts still remain.
Where this item was found was actually a little off to the side from the main ranch site. That's why nothing was found with it. I did find this with it. (Picture) Is that anything.

Just kidding.
The first time I posted this years ago someone told me that it was a ribber gearshift boot from an old truck. Well, I didn't have my detector set for rubber when I found it but then I didn't have it set for ceramics either. I know it's at least from the 1830's because I had my descrimination set for 1830.
Mitch

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

In my continuing efforts to assist you with the identification of your dome-shaped item, I have compiled the following list of suggestions that have been contributed so far. I realize that so called detective work often involves the process of elimination, meaning it is helpful to some degree of knowing what the item "isn't," but in keeping with the theme of ...

What Is It?
Have you found something and need help ID'ing it? Ask here.

... which is the title of this particular forum, I focus my list on what some think it is as opposed to those suggestions as to what it isn't. I feel most will agree that it is not "the rubber floor cover to a truck gear shift stick!"

I hope you find the list helpful, and apologize if I happen to have missed anything.

Sincerely,

Bob

Note: Rather than take up uneccessary space, I list the suggestions in line form, one after the other.

Flag pole base ~ Top piece to a fancy lantern ~ Ceiling mount canopy of chandelier ~ Top of an old street lamp ~ Bottom to an old street lamp ~ Hexagonal roof cap ~ Base to an old fashioned Barber's chair ~ Umbrella and/or cane stand ~ Weathervane or lightning rod base ~ Carriage lamp ~ Church or Mission ornament ~ Candle holder ~ Spittoon ~ Mission Cross Lantern ~ Decorative stack topper on a train ~ Decorative cover of some unknown sort.

SBB

 

[sonofmitch]

I suppose that if I want any more confirmation on it's identity I will have to consult some professionals. Some have been enormously helpful, like sodabob who has snatched on to this subject like a snapping turtle that don't let go till it thunders. I would like to post a tentatively solved on this item if there were such a thing. I believe that I will post a solved at some time in the future but I'm going to have to carry it to San Antonio or Goliad or Austin or somewhere to get further confirmation.
Thank you all for your contributions and your entertainment.
I'm marking it solved 'cause in my mind it came off of the church at the ranch in question although any further comments I will graciously accept.
Mitch

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I suppose that if I want any more confirmation on it's identity I will have to consult some professionals.

Im sure you didnt mean it that way but your comment sounds insulting. I think you meant to say "consult some other professionals." Your making it sound as if we are all amateurs.

 

[sonofmitch]

Phlegm,
I don't really remember what else I found with it besides the candlestick that was quite a way off. I remember some gun parts but I couldn't even tell you what type anymore. There was military button about 15 yards away but as I remember it was probably Civil War era. Did find a huge buckle. If I ever find it again I will post it.
Mitch

 

[mcmich]

Here is an extremely zoomed picture of a gas light. Notice the posts coming out the top.

 

[Tnmountains]

Re: Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell

This has to be the weirdest Green Check I have seen thus far. I can tell you that after experts interested parties and Archeologist looked at it. ,,
It is not the Holy Grail !!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell

He has decided what he wants it to be.

 

[sonofmitch]

I hope you guys don't intend to doubt the brush strokes of Leonardo Da Vinci.
I will admit I was mistaken. It's not Spanish.
Mitch

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

sonofmitch -

I'll tell you where I found the photo if you tell me how much the item weighs!

Lol ... Just kidding!

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure. I only remember Googling the exact words "Weather Vane" , which was suggested by 72cheyenne, and then went from there. I do recall the photo was of a church, I believe in Spain. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right this moment, but will back-track when I get a chance. I've looked at so many websites today my brain is Googled! Or perhaps that's just the Champagne I've been drinking.

SODA"TINYBUBBLES"BOB

Did you ever find the link for this weather vane pic? It looks pretty good but Id like to read about it. Check your search history on that day.

Ive not been taking this post seriously but after further thought, I now think its something that mounted to the ceiling; such as from a large chandelier like BB suggested. Its more a decorative piece, not structural and roof flashing would more likely be copper not brass. But it sure looks flimsy like roof flashing. Im just guessing like everyone else.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'm thinking and I doubt this item is waterproof. That would rule out anything on the roof.

 

[sonofmitch]

Bigcypresshunter,

I did find the location of the picture and have included it as a link that way you can go the original photo that you can click on and blow it up to get an excelent picture of what I think this piece resembles. I'ts part of the bell housing for a Cathedral in France. I have also included a zoomed in picture of the item itself. Damn close. Just a slight variation on a theme. I would really like to know apporximately how thick the material that makes up this one in France. Plus the French one doesn't seem to be as crudely made.
Actually, this thing is pretty sturdy. It's made from 1/8 inch thick brass. I'm not a metal expert but I'd say brass. It's definately green as can be. I could jump up and down on it and not affect it in the least and I'm 214 lbs. That's why I don't think its a flimsy stamped brass lantern part. Not the kind of lantern at least that one would carry. If this weights 9 lbs, imagine what a large lantern made like this would weigh.
I assure you that this thing is not waterproof. However, I would think it need not be if it were just meant to adorn the roof that was already there. Somewhat like a weathervane but with religious significance. Or demonic significance. I don't know. Something significant.
Also the pieces that are bradded to the underside and were apparently broken off could have continued outward for an undeterminable distance. It looks as if whatever was there was creased periodically as there are creases in the small portions that remain. This would have given them a flexibility that would allow it to conform to whatever might be underneath it and possible be attatched there.

Mitch


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Cloche_cathedrale_bourges.JPG

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

Here's the link to that brief video of Mission Espiritu Santo at Goliad State Park in Texas. The Mission was founded in 1749.

There is a full-frame feature and audio on the video. Just left click anywhere on the enlarged screen and the video will stop. The 3:00 video itself is very informative, but the purpose of this post is to take a closer look at a couple of particular frames on the video. Freeze-frame it at 0:17 seconds. And again at 2:38. You will notice at the bottom of the cross what is clearly a metal, roundish looking base. I realize the mission had restoration work done over the years, and the dome looking base may very well be part of those restorations. But I also know that historians are sticklers for authenticity. Of course, the cross and base in the photo could just as easily be original. I am not saying this is your item specific, I'm only suggesting (confirming?) that at least one Spanish mission in Goliad, Texas had/has a "similar" dome shaped metal ornament at the base of it's cross on the tower, and that other missions in the area may have as well. This is the first and only close-up like this I have been able to find. Not conclusive, of course, but interesting nontheless.

SBB

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/videos/state_park/south_texas_plains/goliad.phtml

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I didnt realize it was broken. This is a tough one to solve. I guess it could be some kind of add on decorative roof piece but it could not be flashing for a vent or pole IMO. And it could not be for something as important as a church steeple. I didnt get a chance yet to ask my roofer friend. Places where pipes or crosses extend through the roof are weak points where water can get in and cause serious damage.. Thats the reason for the flashing; so roof flashing it is not. Its made from too many different pieces to be functional as a waterproofing flashing..

I suppose it could be a weathervane mount and the holes are for mounting but then again the bolts, seams and center would have to be tarred over because water could get underneath where it cant be seen and cause a serious problem. The cathedral piece looks sealed and waterproof. Now that I see it up close the only resemblance is that is is oxagonal.

It would have to be in a structure that would allow water to get underneath or it would be for inside. Allowing water to get underneath doesnt sound good on a roof.

 

[IronSpike]

The relic has detailed decorative features and most likely not roofing related.

Most likely a ceiling mount or street gas lamp. I don't think it's a Spanish helmet.

I hope you guys don't intend to doubt the brush strokes of Leonardo Da Vinci.
I will admit I was mistaken. It's not Spanish.
Mitch

I zoomed the pic a bit and found this:

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Hard to find an exact match but here are two examples of very early electric chandeliers.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

Regarding the ingenius sketch you provided us with, you can't help but wonder how far the "collar" you suggest might have extended around the perimeter. Was it one inch or one foot? We may never know! But based on your original photos, especially the one of the underside, it certainly appears there was once something attached to the bottom of it, and that it may have gotten ripped off or intentionally removed for some reason.

I'm curious ... was the item buried or laying on the surface when you found it? And if buried, did you find it with a metal detector or was some portion of it exposed? If buried, how deep was it? ( I'm just trying to help establish if it had been where you found it for a short period, or possibly a long, long time). And to your knowledge, were there indications of any grading or bulldozer work having ever been done in the immediate vacinity?

Additionally, the following tid-bit of information is part of an article regarding the somewhat recent discovery of a mission site north of San Antonio, near Menard, Texas. Today the mission is known as Santa Cruz de San Saba. I share this with you not to shove a mission theory down your throat, but rather to establish that not all mission and old ranch sites are immediately visible to the naked eye. This is just one example!

Too bad you can't form a "team" to go out and tear your find site apart! But if you ever do form a team, count me in!

Thanks.

SBB

Article extract ~

First Solid Evidence Found

On a day in September 1993, researchers drove past the Lyckman's alfalfa field and noticed that it had been recently plowed. Stopping only long enough to gain permission to enter the property, the team members walked over the field, carefully scanning the recently turned dirt. Then Hindes picked up a ceramic fragment, wiped the dirt from it, and realized that its pale green glaze was that of a Spanish olive jar. Triumphantly, she told the others, "This is what we've been looking for." Further investigation turned up concentrations of burned "daub." (The clay-rich dirt that had been packed into the cracks in the wooden walls of the mission) which had hardened like pottery in the heat of the fire when the Indians burned the compound, and chunks of it were lying all over the plowed field.

Test excavations directed by Texas Tech archaeologist Grant Hall in January 1994 went below the surface zone that had been disturbed by modern plowing. The archaeologists identified soil stains left by wooden poles and posts used in building the mission. Metal detectors helped pinpoint more than 400 metal finds. 124 specimens of probably Spanish Colonial origin were found, among them a wealth of iron nails, hinges, latches and hooks; a copper thimble; religious ornaments; pieces of bridle bit; and numerous lead musket balls. Also found were shards of Majolica, a tin-enameled ceramic; buttons; trade beads; bone; and basalt metate fragments. Hindes says that one of the most remarkable artifacts is a tiny religious medallion. Although the image on the medallion has not yet been identified, Spanish inventories of the supplies shipped to the San Sabá mission include such medallions, which were given to Indians who agreed to come into the mission for conversion.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Mitch ~

Article extract ~

First Solid Evidence Found

On a day in September 1993, researchers drove past the Lyckman's alfalfa field and noticed that it had been recently plowed. Stopping only long enough to gain permission to enter the property, the team members walked over the field, carefully scanning the recently turned dirt. Then Hindes picked up a ceramic fragment, wiped the dirt from it, and realized that its pale green glaze was that of a Spanish olive jar. Triumphantly, she told the others, "This is what we've been looking for." Further investigation turned up concentrations of burned "daub." (The clay-rich dirt that had been packed into the cracks in the wooden walls of the mission) which had hardened like pottery in the heat of the fire when the Indians burned the compound, and chunks of it were lying all over the plowed field.

Test excavations directed by Texas Tech archaeologist Grant Hall in January 1994 went below the surface zone that had been disturbed by modern plowing. The archaeologists identified soil stains left by wooden poles and posts used in building the mission. Metal detectors helped pinpoint more than 400 metal finds. 124 specimens of probably Spanish Colonial origin were found, among them a wealth of iron nails, hinges, latches and hooks; a copper thimble; religious ornaments; pieces of bridle bit; and numerous lead musket balls. Also found were shards of Majolica, a tin-enameled ceramic; buttons; trade beads; bone; and basalt metate fragments. Hindes says that one of the most remarkable artifacts is a tiny religious medallion. Although the image on the medallion has not yet been identified, Spanish inventories of the supplies shipped to the San Sabá mission include such medallions, which were given to Indians who agreed to come into the mission for conversion.

This is exactly what Plehbah (an experienced Archaeologist) was trying to tell us. Where is the other evidence of a Spanish mission? I am undecided as to whether it is of Spanish origin or not. If anything, you have presented evidence to the contrary.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

bigcy ~

I attemped to send you the following message, but your PM box is full! I hope you don't mind that I post it here.

SBB

Message;

I agree to some extent! Thus my query to sonofmitch about the depth of the item, etc. If I understand him correctly the item was found over ten years ago, and I don't believe he has been back all that many times, if ever! Nor does it appear that he has done "an extensive escavation of the site." I suppose one of us should ask him about all of this.

(And I guess I just did!).

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Ill need to clear it out again. It sure has a Spanish look to it but I dont know if it is or not. It may be an isolated find. Like Plehbah said it would help his case if he had found other artifacts. It would help us if we had more details of the find.