Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. and everybody else.

[sonofmitch]

Could be the holy grail. You tell me.
I found this several years ago near Victoria Texas on the San Antonio river. It's made of brass or bronze and is about 11 inches across and is approximately 1/8 thick. It stands 5 inches high and has a center hole that is 3 inches in diameter. There are six other 5/8 inch holes with one in each corner of its hexagonal shape. These holes are made such that if something were inserted into them that object would stand vertically and not at any other angle than 90 degrees. It appears to be Spanish or French just 'cause I want it to be.
The way it was made was by making 6 identical pieces that were bent to the same shape to make each of the six sides and joined with rivets through the decorative strips that cover each seam. I would say that it's off of a ship, from a mission, or off of a carriage. Surely not a hubcap. Maybe a decorative base for a flagpole Then why the little holes. Six flags over Texas?? Looks hammered into shape. Each of the six pieces at one time had other pieces riveted to them which would have stuck our from the edges that you see now.

Any ideas?? Anyone

Attached Thumbnails

 

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[sonofmitch]

I think it's very likely that the broken off pieces may well have extended far beyond what we see. Who knows to what extent. Somewhat like the included picture.

 

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[A2coins]

I see the slits on the under side

 

[DCMatt]

I always thought it could be off the spires of a mission or church like in the picture here. Someone did mention that it might be too ornate to be that high up on a church steeple and that does make me question it being up on a roof. This thing weights a little over 9 lbs.

The piece is way heavier than I thought. I can see it as a Spanish colonial style cupola.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I see the slits on the under side

Are you referring to the 6 pieces? Its made of 6 pieces that are riveted together in a hexagon shape.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think it's very likely that the broken off pieces may well have extended far beyond what we see. Who knows to what extent. Somewhat like the included picture.

Yes it was riveted to something larger. This piece is not waterproof and although its heavy, its not very strong. It seems to serve no purpose other than decoration. Thinking outside the box, could this be a wagon wheel hub cover from a carriage of a very rich person? Can you imagine this when it was new and shiny, it would have been impressive.

 

[A2coins]

I was thinking the slits / 6 pieces were there instead of just one piece so whatever went through the hole could move and have some play

 

[sonofmitch]

I originally thought of the wheel hub idea but just couldn't quite make it be. After seeing the picture you sent once again I'm thinking maybe.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I originally thought of the wheel hub idea but just couldn't quite make it be. After seeing the picture you sent once again I'm thinking maybe.

I dont know. Its gaudy by todays standards but its not functional in any way. The design serves no purpose but decorative.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I was thinking the slits / 6 pieces were there instead of just one piece so whatever went through the hole could move and have some play

I dont believe there is any play. Its all riveted together. As far as I know, nothing has any play. Nothing moves. Maybe sonofmitch could verify this.

 

[sonofmitch]

Nothing movable.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I stated that i didn't believe it served any function but its possible the center hole could function to hold a post but why make it with 18 separate pieces riveted together? This item has over 40 rivets holding the numerous pieces together! Surely they could design a stronger flag post or lamp post holder. Even a roof piece thats not waterproof would only serve as a decorative piece.

 

[ARC]

"(hoping AARC can narrow the century down from the manufacturing) "

Yeah... I still got nothing to add.

I did do some research on copper smith work etc... but its all over the place.

Still feel this is something very cool if nothing else.

Definitely a keeper.

 

[sonofmitch]

More Pics

This was found on the San Antonio River near Hwy 77 and Hwy 239 intersection. It's possible that any ships supplying the missions upriver might have laid over there. I don't know how navigable the river moght have bee at this time
Here are a few more interesting pictures. One shows a break in one of the decorative strips that has been repaired with an additional rivet. None of the others have this rivet. The others show where the six strips have been brazed together between the 5/8 holes and the outer and innner edges.

 

[PetesPockets55]

I think Sonofmitch is onto something with his image in post #61 and first image of post #35.

It appears that the remaining pair of narrow metal "back plates" (4 are missing) are designed to keep the surface of two layers of metal flush or in alignment. It is hard to tell from the images if these pieces are parallel to the top opening or at an angle, angled away from the hole.

It looks much too sturdy to be purely decorative and definitely not for keeping a roof dry.
Maybe this may have been attached to a one-piece cast base. An ornate decorative shroud or base for whatever was doing the real work. (like a street light?)

Do you see any abrasions around the top of the 6 smaller holes? (From nuts or washers.)

 

[sonofmitch]

No abrasions whatsoever. Not inside or outside. Holes taper a bit.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

No abrasions whatsoever. Not inside or outside. Holes taper a bit.

Are the holes tapered only on the underside or inside?

 

[sonofmitch]

Actually I just realized the holes are only tapered to the extent that would allow whatever went through them could do so vertically.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Actually I just realized the holes are only tapered to the extent that would allow whatever went through them could do so vertically.

Are you saying if the item is layed flat, the holes are vertical AT 90 degrees?



The word I meant to use is beveled. The holes appear to be beveled on the underside or countersunk which is usually done so a wood screw could be recessed and lay flush when tight.

are the holes beveled on the underside only, or both sides?

 

[sonofmitch]

If the thing is setting flat that makes the skirted area where the holes are about 30 degrees up from the table top. If something like a rod was to go through the holes in a vertical direction the top of the hole would be beveled on one edge of the hole on the top and the other side of the hole on the bottom. The picture you sent does seem to indicate this but other holes don't have this uniformity. Definately not meant to be counter sunk. The tops are definitely not beveled.

 

[sonofmitch]

My take on it.

Here is what I'm thinking. Years ago Sodabottlebob and 72Cheyenne sent me these pictures of Coloche Cathedral in Bouges France. The one section is very similar to my find. If you were to translate it to Spanish influences it might come out looking like mine. In fact LaSalle, of French origin came pretty near here when he built Ft. St. Louis. The Spanish and the Indians made sure anything LaSalle built was destroyed. The original Spanish mission of La Bahia was built on the LaSalle site in 1722 before it moved to the Guadalupe river near Victoria and finally to Goliad in 1749. They would have likely passed the site of my find on their move. If my piece was recovered from anything abandoned at these missions they would have treasured it to use in making arrowheads. I have two such arrowheads made of brass that I have found metal detecting. Not at this site though. Whatever those broken edges were would have been scavenged first.
It could have been from an abandoned mission or meant as a replacement on the new locations. The Alamo itself was never finished and whatever adornments might have been meant for it is unknown. I believe I have heard it was meant to have had bell towers like the others.
I believe it must have been meant for one of these mission, Presidios, or churches.