Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. and everybody else.

[sonofmitch]

Could be the holy grail. You tell me.
I found this several years ago near Victoria Texas on the San Antonio river. It's made of brass or bronze and is about 11 inches across and is approximately 1/8 thick. It stands 5 inches high and has a center hole that is 3 inches in diameter. There are six other 5/8 inch holes with one in each corner of its hexagonal shape. These holes are made such that if something were inserted into them that object would stand vertically and not at any other angle than 90 degrees. It appears to be Spanish or French just 'cause I want it to be.
The way it was made was by making 6 identical pieces that were bent to the same shape to make each of the six sides and joined with rivets through the decorative strips that cover each seam. I would say that it's off of a ship, from a mission, or off of a carriage. Surely not a hubcap. Maybe a decorative base for a flagpole Then why the little holes. Six flags over Texas?? Looks hammered into shape. Each of the six pieces at one time had other pieces riveted to them which would have stuck our from the edges that you see now.

Any ideas?? Anyone

Attached Thumbnails

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

What other items did you find in the river?

 

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[ARC]

Great pictures. Thank you. One thing that sits in my mind is that this item does not appear to be waterproof so how could it function as a roof covering? It seems to be hand made for decorative purposes. I suppose the roof could be sealed underneath and this is just decoration..

Also... too "ornate" for roof application... would have been unnecessary.

Later today / late afternoon / this evening... I may have an hour to dig in on this.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

I like this theory from 72cheyenne... "My guess is a base to a weather vane or lightning rod."

Dave

 

[ARC]

I also thought vain part... this would have been made GENERALLY from a thicker metal due to it having to withstand elements.

Have you ever dealt with weathervanes ? they are generally pretty stout... and rods as well.

BUT...

In theory... it could have been... and this I why it met its demise. heh

 

[Fourman110]

I'm with CharlieP on this one. The six holes on the sides don't really appear to be mounting holes. While there are some really intricate weather vane designs, I don't see how this would be attached to a roof or what the six holes would be used for.

As a hanging chandelier, likely from the arts & crafts period, it's not uncommon to have six pendant type lights or arms hanging off the sides. It would have likely been suspended "pointy side down" by chain. There really don't appear to be any other attachment mechanisms so hanging makes the most sense.

This one isn't even close, but it provides the general concept:

 

[Gene Mean]

Cool find congrats! Maybe an old stagecoach lanterntop?

 

[sonofmitch]

What other items did you find in the river?

It was next to the river. Spanish style candlestick, U.S. buckle, trigger guard, pocket watch lid with Civil War soldier on horse etched on top. Rancho established 1830. There was a church.
Mitch

 

[sonofmitch]

Thank you so much for your interest.

 

[sonofmitch]

If anything were to hang down through those holes it would rub the sides oh the flaired out portion. Whatever went through there would have to have gone through at an angle or been short.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The item is made of very thick brass or bronze. It was sand casted in 6 identical pie shaped pieces. The 6 decorative strips in the right pic were bent into shape and riveted on to hold it all together. Then 6 evenly spaced holes were drilled. But its not waterproof unless tar or caulking was used and even then this design would be suspect to leakage..

The 6 narrow strips that were riveted to the bottom side are a mystery and only 2 remain. What was their purpose? They dont seem to add any overall strength or decoration to the item but for some reason they were riveted on. And 4 of them have broken off. Its like they wanted to beef up the bottom but for what reason? There is no wear on any part of this so its probably not a moving part but 4 of the narrow strips are broken off.

Assuming the 6 holes are for mounting, the riveted strips had to have served some mounting purpose as well. And it would have taken some force to bust them off so Im guessing the narrow riveted strips were integral in the way it was mounted. I just notice that they were riveted and possibly re-riveted with as many as 5 or 6 rivets per strip.

And I truly believe the left pic is the bottom side or the inside that is not seen.

 

[Plug N Play]

OP ... can you narrow things down a little. I think "origin" would be our best lead here.

Specifically:

1) "near Victoria Texas on the San Antonio river." Are we talking up-river or down-river from Goliad? Any reason to suspect any association with Goliad ?
2) North bank or south bank of the San Antonio River ?
3) You mentioned Rancho and church ...are we talking more along the lines of a remote "hacienda" ... or a populated "town".
4) You mention enough other items to make me think we are dealing with "bank wash down" as opposed to items being washed down from up-river.

Does this map represent things accurately?
1) Travis, Boone, Crocket, etc. were drinking water from a short distance above where you found this ?
2) Should the Alamo ever get "broken" ... it would be easy for a "piece" to drift down to your site? (If I read it right, the structures were built and collapsed at least twice, over time, before the third one was build ... and we all know it got broken, also.



My mentioning the Alamo is highly "sensational" ... because there were at least four major, early spanish developments up-river from you including the Alamo. Those would be possible up-river sources to consider. First, we need to determine if we are looking towards Goliad as a source ... or do you feel you were excavating river debris from up-river ?

Looking at this area, I'm thinking we are in a hurricane zone ? Does that sound right ? (heavy roof mounts that still may get blown off due to extreme weather patterns ?)

For several reasons, we need to start with a point in relation to Goliad. This picture suggests just one of several possibilities, should we direct our research towards Goliad.




The research isn't going to be easy. Looking at the manufacturing of this piece, I'm thinking the arrival of the Spanish gives us our earliest possible dates beginning in the 1500s. (hoping AARC can narrow the century down from the manufacturing) Mission, presidio, and hacienda development through the 1600s. French influence during the late 1700s. The French sold the Louisianna Purchase in 1803 due to necessities on the home front. Interest in this area was lost as well, at that time. The 1800s is rife with research possibilities. Much activity throughout the entire region with the introduction of "American" influx conflicting with the Spanish establishments. Goliad, alone, has several historical occurrences that might account for debris left riverside.

I could go on and on with my preliminary research ... but it needs a direction from you.
Physically, where is our starting point ? From that point, what are your hunches as to the direction this piece may have taken to get where you found it? Off the bank ... or brought down the river ? Should we consider Goliad, or is your site up-river from Goliad ?

 

[A2coins]

I still think the base of a light pole the short poles that they make in a downtown area very ornate go ahead mark this solved. Lol

 

[A2coins]

Hope these pictures help. Much improved cell camera since 10 years ago.

What did they eat at the last supper could be a salad bowl. Lol

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bigcypress,
Thank you for your comment,
I have included a picture of the attachment I mentioned. It is still on two of the edges but on the other 6 edges you can still rivets and/ or rivet holes where they used to be. They are each broken off just past the edges. Let me know if this picture is better and I'll post other new ones. I'm getting old and would really like to solve this before my wife sends it to the scrap yard when I'm gone.
Mitch

View attachment 1788986

Wait a minute. I missed this post. Is this a broken edge that I marked in red? Is the broken brass piece the same thickness as the rest?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I still think the base of a light pole the short poles that they make in a downtown area very ornate go ahead mark this solved. Lol

I did a search of old gaslight and street light bases and i dont think so. This item is not strong enough as its just pieces of bronze riveted together. The street lights that I found in my search are one piece solid heavy
cast iron.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

If these are broken edges, that means it was permanently fastened to a larger piece,.... right?

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

It doesn't appear to be anything "municipal" that would have been made in quantity. More a single-example or custom work - like a hanging chandelier fixture made by a local shop.

It's also very possible that it was repurposed at some time and that is why there are additions or removals.

 

[A2coins]

Around the hole I see cut slits in it for movement of whatever went in there maybe a roof pipe like someone else said

 

[sonofmitch]

Around the hole I see cut slits in it for movement of whatever went in there maybe a roof pipe like someone else said

The big hole or small holes? I do see a couple of filing marks.

 

[sonofmitch]

Holy Grail

About 12 miles south of Goliad on north bank.
I always thought it could be off the spires of a mission or church like in the picture here. Someone did mention that it might be too ornate to be that high up on a church steeple and that does make me question it being up on a roof. Maybe part of a carriage? This thing weights a little over 9 lbs. The other picture might give you a better idea of it's size.
I want to clear up a misunderstanding I may have created. These items were not found on the river bank which is much lower but along the habitable high ground near it. The actual river bed is probably 300 yrds away at this point. I can't imagine that these things washed down from up river. The Holy Grail is 5-1/2 tall and it was completely below ground by at least an inch or more. It had been there awhile. It wasn't sandy soil either but good rich dark earth.
Instead of being washed down it may have been brought upriver after being made in Spain for a mission and lost at a landing after an Indian attack. I can make up some stories, now.
Mitch