Apache of the Superstitions

[cactusjumper]

somehiker, secret canyon,

If you want to understand the difference in pottery material and design and the cultures involved, read the May 1967 National Geograpic articles : Masters of the American Desert and Magnetic Clues Date the Past.

The articles were written by Dr. Emil Haury who excavated hundreds of Hohokam, Salado, Singaua, Anasazi and modern indian sites including Snaketown and sites on the San Carlos Reservation. Dr. Louis DuBoise wrote the magnetic archeomagnetism article. Archeomagnetism was the process Dr. DuBoise developed to precisely date sites and materials which did away for the need for radio carbon dating. This was in 1967 ! These people definately were not CYA'ing themselves and their work and processes were so precise they are still being used today.

Haury and DuBoise unearthed and examined one and a half million pottery shards and cataloged hundreds of thousands of them.

They concluded while each culture preferred it's own material and design, even the Hohokam went through 3 major cultural revolutions which changed their designs and materials used. Other cultures copied neighboring cultures and all used whatever was at hand when they had nothing else. Both articles are real eye openers and cut through the speculation and guesswork of identifying and dating pottery and basic materials.

Azhiker

AZ,

That's very impressive! Please tell us more.

Joe

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!

[pippinwhitepaws]

Dr. Emil Haury...i have tried to forget that name...
when i was archivist at the jerome historical society, they had a human skull on display in the museum...
YECK, brain stem an all...nasty.
Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA), Pub. L. 101-601, 25 U.S.C. 3001 et seq., 104 Stat. 3048, state clearly that human remains are to be returned to the tribe.

i did research,( some wonderful material hidden away in jerome)... an it turns out, the god of southwest archeology, had unearthed this body over in the salt mine in camp verde...perfectly preserved for a thousand years...so what does haury do? flays the body, sends pieces all over the country...jerome got the head.
so...i call the yavapai in prescott...talked to their historic resource person...won't drop his name.
the hopi were the final contact on returning this human for burial.
the day the hopi arrive in jerome is a circus...around 30 hopi elders an helpers decend on the town like the plague...door to door down main they go..."you can't sell that, it's sacred"
damn... i give the skull to them...get two hours of interrogation .."where is the rest of him?" over an over.
finally they leave with the skull...an my job...people got really pissed for me doing a good deed. on both sides of the issue.
the point is haury is no saint..an made as many mistakes as anyone else.
i also studied under barbara mills...now at UofA. a ceramics expert.
please stop imagining i am a tourist, i am a social an cultural historian, 53 years in the southest,with that rare ability to mix theory an praxis.

 

[Cubfan64]

Dr. Emil Haury...i have tried to forget that name...
when i was archivist at the jerome historical society, they had a human skull on display in the museum...
YECK, brain stem an all...nasty.
Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA), Pub. L. 101-601, 25 U.S.C. 3001 et seq., 104 Stat. 3048, state clearly that human remains are to be returned to the tribe.

i did research,( some wonderful material hidden away in jerome)... an it turns out, the god of southwest archeology, had unearthed this body over in the salt mine in jerome...perfectly preserved for a thousand years...so what does haury do? flays the body, sends pieces all over the country...jerome got the head.
so...i call the yavapai in prescott...talked to their historic resource person...won't drop his name.
the hopi were the final contact on returning this human for burial.
the day the hopi arrive in jerome is a circus...around 30 hopi elders an helpers decend on the town like the plague...door to door down main they go..."you can't sell that, it's sacred"
damn... i give the skull to them...get two hours of interrogation .."where is the rest of him?" over an over.
finally they leave with the skull...an my job...people got really pissed for me doing a good deed. on both sides of the issue.
the point is haury is no saint..an made as many mistakes as anyone else.
i also studied under barbara mills...now at UofA. a ceramics expert.
please stop imagining i am a tourist, i am a social an cultural historian, 53 years in the southest,with that rare ability to mix theory an praxis.

I remember you telling that story about Haury a few years back Don - it stuck in my head.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

hey paul, was wondering if you'd recognize me...
wish it was just a story...it is amazing how much damage early anthropologist/archeologists have done to the future study of the southwest.
sorry if i sounded pissie. imagine if i entered your lab an began telling you how you didn't know squat about science...

 

[Azhiker]

Dr. Emil Haury established the University of Arizona Field School at Point of Pines on the San Carlos Reservation in 1946. Point of Pines is the center for the only known site where Hohokam, Salado, Anasazi and modern indian cultures overlapped. For the next 15 years it was the prime source of information for pre-colombian through modern cultures.

Dr. Haury's excavation career is meticulously documented. Every dig he ever worked on is recorded both by archeological sources and a 28 series of lectures on his complete works. No mention is made in any of them of his excavation of a salt cave as you described. Perhaps it was another archeologist.

In fact, Dr. Haury was a leading advocate for native American rights and their rights to historic and archeological sites. He campaigned for the right for native Americans to vote and won that battle in 1948 which paved the way for the indian rights acts a few years later.

In Carol Ann Bassett's classic work, The Culture Thieves, ( Science and archeology 86, Vol. 9 1986) she credits Emil Haury for his exemplemery work with the native American comunity and his efforts on their behalf.

Possibly you got the name wrong. That happens.

Azhiker

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

sorry az...i understand his accomplishments. it appears the event, excavation of the salt mine in camp verde, occured when emil was a graduate student, under cummings.
i have the name correct.
and if he did in fact record EVERYTHING, there is also a kiva above jerome he inspected, an forgot about...just pulled the stone back over the entrance, an walked.

http://www.arizonaarchaeologicalcou...AC Fall Conference_Presentation Abstracts.pdf
Emil Walter Haury, May 2, 1904—December 5, 1992 | By Raymond Harris Thompson, Caleb Vance Haynes, Jr., and James Jefferson Reid | Biographical Memoirs

 

[Cubfan64]

sorry if i sounded pissie. imagine if i entered your lab an began telling you how you didn't know squat about science...

I completely understand - I'm not sure if you posted your background/credentials here (I may have missed it), but you should. I think most everyone who visits here is just a "hobbyist" of sorts and we all have opinions and have read things. It doesn't hurt to promote yourself a little bit just to put a little additional weight behind some of your comments.

I still have a little jar with those samples of peridot you sent me how many years ago - I don't know if I ever told you, but even though I believed you I couldn't help myself. I had a coworker check a couple out on a micro-Raman FTIR instrument and guess what.....? They were peridot

 

[Azhiker]

Cubfan64,

Isn't this forum already saturated with folks trying to one up everyone else and defaming other people and their opinions and lives for the sole purpose of making themselves superior ( in their own minds) ?

What do you suggest ? We all post our accomplishments and academics and the one with the most achievements, their opinions carries more, or the most weight ? After all you suggested it. I feel everyones comments deserve respect and consideration regardless.

I think it's counterproductive. You can tell within a few posts if someone is intelligent on a topic and you don't need to know their level of education to know if they know what they are talking about or not. Or if they are just using the forum to advance their own agendas and vendetta's against other people, other opinions and events.

I enjoy reading everyones posts, I learn something from every one and I don't need to know the persons level of academics or background to appreciate their opinions. I can pretty much decide for myself if their posts are on or off target. I don't need to disparage someone if I don't agree with their opinions or statements, or take cheap shots at someone long since gone or not here to defend themselves. Thats what a small and petty person does, basically a coward who hides behind a keyboard. I respect and consider secretcanyons postings and opinions. It's the content of the information in the post that is important, not the contest to see who is top dog of the forum. Theres enough of that already.

Azhiker

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan64,

Isn't this forum already saturated with folks trying to one up everyone else and defaming other people and their opinions and lives for the sole purpose of making themselves superior ( in their own minds) ?

No - it's not saturated with people like that in my opinion. There's a small minority, and when I see posts like that, they mostly just go in one ear and out the other.

What do you suggest ? We all post our accomplishments and academics and the one with the most achievements, their opinions carries more, or the most weight ? After all you suggested it. I feel everyones comments deserve respect and consideration regardless.

I think it's counterproductive. You can tell within a few posts if someone is intelligent on a topic and you don't need to know their level of education to know if they know what they are talking about or not. Or if they are just using the forum to advance their own agendas and vendetta's against other people, other opinions and events.

I never implied not respecting or considering anyone's comments - you're putting words in my mouth. As to one person's comments carrying more weight than anothers, perhaps you can tell when someone is knowledgable about a topic within a few posts, but when it's a subject I know little or nothing about, I often can't. I personally enjoy knowing more about the background of the person commenting - it makes it much easier for me to direct specific questions (publicly or privately) to that person. I like to think I'm a good judge of character, and I can tell when a person is boasting for the sake of boasting vs. giving some background to help understand their perspective on a topic. I don't see anything wrong with it.

For example, when I'm in a meeting at work and hear a discussion between an engineer fresh from college with new ideas but no plant experience, an engineer who designed that specific process and an operator who's spent the last 40 years of his life running that process, everything each of them has to say has value - the difference is in the perspective that each of them brings to the table. By knowing those backgrounds, it's much easier for me (who might have no background in any of those areas) to evaluate the comments and ask pertinent questions of each person.

I enjoy reading everyones posts, I learn something from every one and I don't need to know the persons level of academics or background to appreciate their opinions. I can pretty much decide for myself if their posts are on or off target. I don't need to disparage someone if I don't agree with their opinions or statements, or take cheap shots at someone long since gone or not here to defend themselves. Thats what a small and petty person does, basically a coward who hides behind a keyboard. I respect and consider secretcanyons postings and opinions. It's the content of the information in the post that is important, not the contest to see who is top dog of the forum. Theres enough of that already.

Azhiker

As the years go by, I'm realizing more and more that I quite obviously do not communicate well with folks - I tend to give everyone respect the moment I meet them and after that it's left in their hands and actions as to whether they keep that respect or not. Seems as though most people work under the philosophy that everyone has to earn respect and there's a constant battle to gain respect by jabbing at other people.

I guess I just don't see things the way other people do most of the time and probably ought to just shut up. Sorry if I got anyone's dander up over my suggestion to Don.

 

[Azhiker]

Cubfan64,

Not trying to shut anybody up, exactly the opposite. Just thought this would be a much better forum if there weren't the constant one up between people and members disparaging other members in place of actually posting something on topic and informative. If you have to make a point by telling everyone how smart you are or how many years experience you have at something, or putting down other members and their opinions, you really don't have a point at all, what you have is an agenda. I don't know, maybe thats the way people here like it, thats why they're here. To be the top dog and disparage anyone they don't like or think might be more knowledgable than they are. Or just plain come here to start arguments. Just suggested maybe theres a better way.

Sorry if I got anyone's dander up over that suggestion.

Azhiker

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

i don't do one up, or bogus...i am just a student.
good post paul.
don't feel bad...every person i give those rocks to suggests it is just glass.

 

[cactusjumper]

Cubfan64,

Isn't this forum already saturated with folks trying to one up everyone else and defaming other people and their opinions and lives for the sole purpose of making themselves superior ( in their own minds) ?

What do you suggest ? We all post our accomplishments and academics and the one with the most achievements, their opinions carries more, or the most weight ? After all you suggested it. I feel everyones comments deserve respect and consideration regardless.

I think it's counterproductive. You can tell within a few posts if someone is intelligent on a topic and you don't need to know their level of education to know if they know what they are talking about or not. Or if they are just using the forum to advance their own agendas and vendetta's against other people, other opinions and events.

I enjoy reading everyones posts, I learn something from every one and I don't need to know the persons level of academics or background to appreciate their opinions. I can pretty much decide for myself if their posts are on or off target. I don't need to disparage someone if I don't agree with their opinions or statements, or take cheap shots at someone long since gone or not here to defend themselves. Thats what a small and petty person does, basically a coward who hides behind a keyboard. I respect and consider secretcanyons postings and opinions. It's the content of the information in the post that is important, not the contest to see who is top dog of the forum. Theres enough of that already.

Azhiker

Az,

I have to agree with you here. Truth is, people seldom know when someone is speaking factually or making it up as they go along.

Speaking only for myself, I feel the same way about the cowards hiding behind a keyboard. Often they do that with good cause, as their reputations will follow them, without the anonymity of their Internet names. Kind of comforting, isn't it. For that reason, I use my real name.

With the same reasoning, those people who hide, will often come back and delete all of their posts. Never a good idea to question their "facts".

I really enjoy reading your posts, as it's obvious you know your history. You seem really well read.

As usual, I don't hide behind a keyboard.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'moring Ladies & gentlemen: Coffee in the patio, or the kitchen counter?

Sometimes it is necessary to give weight to a post based upon past accomplishments, and / or a Title. But title alone is not automatically sufficient.

The simple fact that the difference between an accomplished amateur and a pro is mainly in past credits, which a pro may more easily receive than an amateur, who may simply be blocked from publishing his results, because he has no Title in the subject, but 'not' in actual knowledge..

There are times when to get an article published, the Amateur collaborates with a Professional.

Ah shucks, what I am trying to say is simply analyze the 'posts', not a single post and you will quickly establish the poster in your mind.

You should hear my thoughts on Rose etc. sigh

Long ago I established to my satisfaction that Cubber is ok.

Joe?? he still hasn't given me that steak, he always uses a silly excuse such as 'that I hadn't shown up'. sheesh .

Don José de La Mancha

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

sorry for disrupting the thread.

i am just an overeducated bum...the education was forced upon me...now that is a great story.
bye
donald r peterson

 

[cactusjumper]

Don,

I don't believe you have disrupted the thread, at all. You have added a great deal to the topic and I hope you will stick with it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Alo secret canyon: You thnk that you may have disrupted something?? Ask Joe, cubber or azhiker about me. I have consistantly introduced 'off subject' data, which I thought were pertinent to show my reasoning, yet, for some reason, they still will drink my coffee he he he

Come join us, I promise to not talk of Tayopa in any way to prove or illustrate my point.

Seriously, what is an over educated bum? Can anyone ever be overeducated, even in one subject? Personally I do not believe it, although sometimes one may be educated on an incorrect version. So far you have been doing just fine, keep posting.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

howdy, again,
just a note, on Feb, 23, the yavapai-apache nation is staging a 180 mile, Exodus-return spirit run, to commemorate the forced relocation of apache-yavapai from the verde river watershed to san carlos reservation, in 1875

the event is open to the public at cliff castle casino on saturday.

{half the humans forced to walk 180 miles in during winter did not survive the march.}

 

[cactusjumper]

howdy, again,
just a note, on Feb, 23, the yavapai-apache nation is staging a 180 mile, Exodus-return spirit run, to commemorate the forced relocation of apache-yavapai from the verde river watershed to san carlos reservation, in 1875

the event is open to the public at cliff castle casino on saturday.

{half the humans forced to walk 180 miles in during winter did not survive the march.}

Don,

I believe that almost 1500 Yavapai started that historic march to San Carlos, and around 140 did not complete the trip. Some of those 140 left the march and went back home, so not all of them died on the march. There were a number of babies that were born during that torturous, forced march.

I am at work right now, so don't take what I have written to the bank. Memory is not so good these days.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

I doubt there's any way for most of us to ever truly know exactly how many started that march and how many finished. It certainly was an awful and unnecessary experience, and I suspect there were more than a few soldiers who didn't feel it was the right thing either.

Even if one accepts the flawed theory that placing them all together with other tribes on the San Carlos was a good thing to do, forcing the march during the winter and not following roadways where wagons could have been used was a shameful thing.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

While a lot of what you say is true, the numbers of Yavapai and Tonto people who started that trek are pretty solid. Exact is something else. What is known is that the People in charge of the march wanted to go around the mountains, with wagons for the elderly and the women. As I recall, the commissioner who was giving the orders said, something to the effect of, "They're Indians, let the beggars walk."

There are accounts of that march from whites as well as Indians. Probably somewhere in the middle is closest to the truth.

Take care,

Joe