What's new
By:

Apache of the Superstitions

cactusjumper said:
Paul,

While a lot of what you say is true, the numbers of Yavapai and Tonto people who started that trek are pretty solid. Exact is something else. What is known is that the People in charge of the march wanted to go around the mountains, with wagons for the elderly and the women. As I recall, the commissioner who was giving the orders said, something to the effect of, "They're Indians, let the beggars walk."

There are accounts of that march from whites as well as Indians. Probably somewhere in the middle is closest to the truth.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

The concept of "the only good indian is a dead indian" was pretty common back then - especially in the Western states. There were certainly people who wanted to treat the Native Americans humanely, unfortunately they weren't always in the position to make that happen - too often it was the other folks who ended up "in charge," and the results rarely were good for the Natives.

What happened to the Natives was inevitable under the circumstances, and I think deep down most folks on both sides knew it.

It's interesting to look at a tiny little bible passage like "For the love of money is the root of all evil" and realize how true that is. Take it one step further and consider the 7 deadly sins (wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy and gluttony) and you can account for most every evil deed done by mankind.

It's a shame we don't do more as a country to make up for some of the wrongs we've done in our not so distant past.
 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!
Cubfan64,

A firsthand account of the relocation of 1400 Apache from the Verde Valley to San Carlos is found in the book, Verde to San Carlos by William Corbusier. Corbusier's father, William T. Corbusier was the post surgeon at Camp Verde in 1874 and was the only doctor to accompany the relocation. The account is from Corbusiers day by day journal.

It was Indian commissioner L.E. Dudley who denied the indians passage by the northern route even though it was a much easier trail because the government was paying a civilian to haul the indians baggage and wanted to save the money. The forced march was made in the dead of winter in 1875 and over some of the roughest terrain in the United States. It surpasses in hardship both the Trail of Tears of the five tribes from the southeast to Oklahoma, and the Long Walk of the Navajo to Bosque Redondo.

Azhiker
 

Paul,

None of us can truely judge the American's of that era and place. It was a different time and those who lived it were probably right......for the time. We are much more genteel these days. The peopled who wanted to treat the Apache humanely, were the folks back east. Those who were sent out here to implement Grant's Indian program did not fare well.

Azhiker,

Corbusier was one of the sources I wrote about. He, along with some other officers involved, lobbied for the easier trail and the wagons. I seem to remember that Dudley may have been drunk when he made that decision.

Good post,

Joe Ribaudo
 

I purchased the Corbusier book back in 2006 in Covina, CA. It's a nice first edition with a mylar covering to protect it. I read it and put it on a bookshelf. It hasn't been cracked since then. Not long ago I purchased a more scarce copy.

Decided to take another look, and it certainly paints a better picture than some of the other tales I have read, among them "Surviving Conquest" by Timothy Braatz. He puts the number of Tonto and Yavapai who started from the Verde at 1476. They really only acquiesced because General Crook promised them that after ten years they would be allowed to return, at least that is what they understood him to say. In any case, it took 25+ years for that promise to be kept.

Both books are good sources. Another would be "Carlos Montezuma, M.D.". In that book, Dr. Corbusier is given very high praise. It also gives a very good account of that forced march to San Carlos. One old man carried his ailing wife all the way, in a basket, on his shoulders.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Ladies, Gentlemen: including Joe, A bit ago I posted a request to know more about the sanitary diposal habits of the Apache etc. This is important simply because sometmes this alone is very helpful in following early setlements. This tells me how long they were at a certain location, and of course, is probably the least disturbed by defacers.

So how did they handle their dispoal, behind a bush or a designated area?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Here's a thought for the wanna-be Apache out there......

Before you get too far into Apache spirituality and religion, you should be aware of the danger to novices and those who like to nibble around the edges of that knowledge. Of course the supernatural power of the Apache spirits, can't harm you unless you believe in them, or so I have heard.:dontknow:

It is said, among some Apache, that Grenville Goodwin died because he got too close to this power. His death came as a result of a tumor which is also said to be common. Some of you pretenders may have already felt the warnings of this power.

Don't ignore those warnings. For the most part it will be problems in the brain, which may effect the speech, vision, balance or hearing.

When someone who is a pretender gets to the point where he starts giving out objects of power and protection, such as the white and black feathers tied together with a beaded (white and blue) thong, a blue and white stone and a small pouch of Tule Pollen. Having received such a "gift" from one such pretender, I fear for his health.

Of course I don't believe in such things, but others might. In truth, I would like to see my old friend get his spirit and life back in the real world. Grenville Goodwin did not heed such advise.

Even though I don't believe in such things, I wouldn't disrespect the Apache spirituality.

Joe Ribaudo
 

G'morning, spirituality, like other things, rests upon the results for the believer or user. It didn't help the Apache very much in the long run.

And their belief that by torturing a person as long as they could keeep him alive, was drawing, or transferring the power of their spirituality into the torturer, has never been proven other than by psychosuggestion.

This isn't the place to get into paranoral inductive, deductive reasoning, belief, practice, and actual effects.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Don Jose,

I'm sure the person that post was meant for, knows the dangers of the powers he has been tempting......for years. He posts under a number of different names, but the "spirits" are not fooled. The real danger lies in repeating the words, even if only in your mind, so long that you become convinced they are real. The power of suggestion does strange things to folks.

Surely you have seen where natives have become sick when they believe a spell has been placed on them by witches or shamans. A number of Apache believe that Grenville Goodwin got too close to the "spirits" and they became angry and turned on him. I am careful to not immerse myself in those lines of research. Can never be too careful in such matters.:dontknow:

Take care,

Joe
 

whew...
i was paraphrasing the yavapai-apache news paper on the event i mentioned. picked it up at the mexican food joint in clarkdale.
i have no idea how many people passed on that journey.
i know only enough about apache to say i don't know squat.
which brings us to the sanitary habits of the apache.
 

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
G'morning, spirituality, like other things, rests upon the results for the believer or user. It didn't help the Apache very much in the long run.

And their belief that by torturing a person as long as they could keeep him alive, was drawing, or transferring the power of their spirituality into the torturer, has never been proven other than by psychosuggestion.

This isn't the place to get into paranoral inductive, deductive reasoning, belief, practice, and actual effects.

Don Jose de La Mancha
Click to expand...

Don Jose,

Who's to say if it helped them......or not?:dontknow:

The Apache survived when every hand was turned against them. They survived exile from their homeland, and many still live by the old beliefs. True, that number is dwindling, but the old gods survive as long as one person still believes. There was a long spell there, when the people of Arizona believed that extermination, or failing in that, exile to an island off the coast of California was the only answer. The newspapers of the state lobbied for that on a constant basis.

Without the help of a higher power, how many of us could have survived such a long term, focused, hatred?

Take care,

Joe
 

Picture 181.webp
Picture 201.webp

here is a photo I took of apache country...
dawn on the eastern face...
who knows where?

second one is around fifty miles north west of the first photo.

if I had my druthers...
 

Last edited:
Im not going to go into a lot of detail,every body has a differant stroke on the subject,but through a spiritual aspect ,if you live close to the superstitions,theres three places to go visit and if you can camp at each site for a week or two,then go back home with a new feeling for the subject in which your seeking,first location is government wells which is on the left hand side of the road,between aj and first water turn off, second site is in the supes,take first water trail to palomino mnt, the third site I dont think you can get to any more without permission,if you could cross horse mesa dam,there is an old trail there that takes you to very special place on the mountain,and if you get to go across the dam ,on the right hand side of the cliff during low water you can see many cliff dwellings,the entire canyon once was used as a hiding place for great native spiritual leaders in the area. lots of luck, hope I could help. not peralta
 

well its been several days since my last post on ted d,and philip c, well i take it no one knew who beshcone was,he was philip cassadore,hope this helps.np
 

Last edited:
Just two weeks ago today we lost a fantastic link between the Apache people and the understanding of their lives and culture. Keith Basso, an anthropoligist and expert on the Western Apache died in Phoenix, Arizona of cancer at the age of 73. Basso was an authority on the pre reservation Apache, spoke the language as well as any white man and was always digging deeper into the Apache past. I had the opportunity to talk with Basso at Point of Pines on the San Carlos reservation many years ago. He was an expert on the White Mountain people of Cibecue. His insight into the Apache before the reservation years was unsurpassed and he will be missed by many both on and off the reservation.

Matthew Roberts
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

Dutchman Exploring

⬅️ Previous Thread

The Book Club

Next Thread ➡️

Top Member Reactions

Similar threads

cuzimloony
The dutchman and horses
Replies
9
Views
840
EDN
EDN
Old Bookaroo
Looking For Rain God's Gold, by Alfred Strong Lewis
Replies
8
Views
1K
Old Bookaroo
Old Bookaroo
skyhawk1251
The Horse Country
Replies
7
Views
924
skyhawk1251
skyhawk1251

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Simplex Metal Detector

Latest Discussions

Back
Top Bottom