Apache of the Superstitions

[Springfield]

sorry springfield, the circles i speak about are small rocks..around 5 inches in dia. not anything like the photo you posted...
i will get some photos up as soon as possible.

also..400 KIA within two miles? i'd sure like to read that report.

Hand sized rocks? Sounds like a hippy medicine wheely thing.

The 400 were killed over several years. I didn't have time to dredge up my original sources, but a quicky google search found this link:

The Place Names of New Mexico - Robert Hixson Julyan - Google Books

 

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[pippinwhitepaws]

well, that area has not been arizona since around 1863. it is true the spanish did loose many people along that route.

 

[Springfield]

well, that area has not been arizona since around 1863. it is true the spanish did loose many people along that route.

Cookes Canyon is located in New Mexico, northeast of today's Deming, NM. It wasn't a 'Spanish route', it was the Butterfield Trail - an Anglo route. The Spanish traveled predominently north/south during their reign. The white guys did a lot of east/west during their early occupation days, and they paid heavily in Cookes Canyon - also in Doubtful Canyon, near the NM/AZ border. Your hand-sized rock circles most likely have nothing to do with the Apaches.

 

[somehiker]

Springfield:

You might look into the architectural/ construction similarities and differences of Apache and Yavapai shelters (wikiups).
Similar brush/hide covered half-dome shelters were used in many areas of North America, and where rocks were employed, the arrangement of these,as well as the patterns (eg:village layouts of teepee rings) involved, assist researchers in determining tribal territorial boundaries and migration routes.
Gathered stone was often used to both help anchor the poles, and sometimes the brush covering around the base of the wikiup as well.
Might be what secretcanyon is talking about.

Regards:SH.

 

[Springfield]

Springfield:

You might look into the architectural/ construction similarities and differences of Apache and Yavapai shelters (wikiups).
Similar brush/hide covered half-dome shelters were used in many areas of North America, and where rocks were employed, the arrangement of these,as well as the patterns (eg:village layouts of teepee rings) involved, assist researchers in determining tribal territorial boundaries and migration routes.
Gathered stone was often used to both help anchor the poles, and sometimes the brush covering around the base of the wikiup as well.
Might be what secretcanyon is talking about.

Regards:SH.

Yeah, could be a rock-tent-peg type thingy I guess. Seems like the stones would be somewhat scattered. Would have to see how the structure was sited to judge the possibility.

Anyway, for those interested in defensive rockwork, below is a site on the slope of Massacre Peak, also near Cookes Canyon. We found 45-70 cartridges and lots of flattened lead at the base of the rock wall.

 

[somehiker]

Nice find Springfield.
One of the factors I most appreciate when it comes to exploring the Southwest for historical sites,
is that the environment leaves so much exposed . Artifacts, ruins and trails.
For even hundreds of years.
Up here in the Northeast ,and across the upper plains to the Northwest, weather and annual die off of vegetation soon buries most of these things under layers of detritus.

Regards:SH.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

thanks somehiker.
hippie circle thingies?

well, superior arizona is not known for producing many hippies, nor were longhairs embraced as members of the community.
somehiker has it correct, rocks were used to keep brush shelters in place.
it always sounds so pretensious to say, i grew up there, recieved letters for studing the southwest, worked as paid an unpaid research assistant at some of arizona's finest historical studie centers.
an have some unknown snipe at what i know as fact.
really.
guess growing up in superior, studing southwest history an religion...just was a big waste of time.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Arizona Ruins Home

Fish Creek, Superstition Mountains, Arizona

the Sinagua did occupy the superstitions. the apache also lived in the area...
but one needs to realize, the area known NOW as the superstitions, is smaller in area than what pre-historic, historic people believed.
the mountain called the superstitions, is but a facade for the entire range of mountain that do make up the superstitions.

 

[cactusjumper]

Arizona Ruins Home

Fish Creek, Superstition Mountains, Arizona

the Sinagua did occupy the superstitions. the apache also lived in the area...
but one needs to realize, the area known NOW as the superstitions, is smaller in area than what pre-historic, historic people believed.
the mountain called the superstitions, is but a facade for the entire range of mountain that do make up the superstitions.

Don,

What you write is true. If the Sinagua found that spot attractive for a camp, those conditions that worked well for them, probably held the same for the Apache. The pressures on the Apache were much different than what the Sinagua faced.

What will separate the two cultures will be the composition, colors and patterns of the shards.

Nice post!

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

thanks somehiker.
hippie circle thingies?

well, superior arizona is not known for producing many hippies, nor were longhairs embraced as members of the community.
somehiker has it correct, rocks were used to keep brush shelters in place.
it always sounds so pretensious to say, i grew up there, recieved letters for studing the southwest, worked as paid an unpaid research assistant at some of arizona's finest historical studie centers.
an have some unknown snipe at what i know as fact.
really.
guess growing up in superior, studing southwest history an religion...just was a big waste of time.

I guess you da man, canyon. Well, at least somehiker got you straightened out on your circle thingies. Posting a photo might have saved you some time.

 

[somehiker]

Arizona Ruins Home

Fish Creek, Superstition Mountains, Arizona

the Sinagua did occupy the superstitions. the apache also lived in the area...
but one needs to realize, the area known NOW as the superstitions, is smaller in area than what pre-historic, historic people believed.
the mountain called the superstitions, is but a facade for the entire range of mountain that do make up the superstitions.

secretcanyon:

I think most archeologists would suggest the campsite as "Salado", rather than "Sinagua"....if the pottery shards found can be identified.
SALADO
While both cultures were very similar, it is believed that the Salado were more closely related to the Hohokam.
While it is possible that Sinagua may have passed through the QC/Superior area if, on their abandonment of the Sedona/Montezuma's Castle area some may have headed southward, it's more likely they did move to the Zuni areas to the east,as the Zuni believe.
The Sinagua: Prehistoric People of the Desert Southwest - DesertUSA
Welcome to Anthropology Labs

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Can't help but wonder what kind of clay is found in the area. Lots of shards might indicate a long term settlement or, decades of a tribe or tribes, coming there to make their pottery at the source of the material.

Take care,

Joe

 

[roadrunner]

The new Superior high school is built on a stream bed, or flood plain of clay.
That is why the walls started to separate and crack a long time ago shortly after it was built.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

Can't help but wonder what kind of clay is found in the area. Lots of shards might indicate a long term settlement or, decades of a tribe or tribes, coming there to make their pottery at the source of the material.

Take care,

Joe

" The new Superior high school is built on a stream bed, or flood plain of clay.
That is why the walls started to separate and crack a long time ago shortly after it was built. "

Joe:

Makes sense. Any resource like that might draw various tribal groups for such a purpose over a long period of time.
Good, flowing water nearby increases the possibility as well.

roadrunner:

Good observation.
The mineral composition of pottery is one of the ways historical timelines are established.

Regards:SH.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

The new Superior high school is built on a stream bed, or flood plain of clay.
That is why the walls started to separate and crack a long time ago shortly after it was built.

i would have thought it was due to subsidence...as in jerome...
neat information..thanks.


{ i attended the old high school...fine view of the smelter smoke.}

i really don't like to play spliting hairs...but here is reference...http://www.stockmorehouse.com/reports/hohokam/ch060_69.htm
there is a reason most anthropologists when asked a specific...answer..." it's the best guess, at this time."

 

[cactusjumper]

Don,

I believe there is a law against making definitive statements concerning the prehistoric , as well as the historic people. Believe it's called CYA. History often changes with the turn of a spade.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

I believe, with the Apache, they used mica in their pottery, or favored a micaceous clay source. It's possible, of course, that other tribes liked the same type of material. Not at home right now, but believe I have a source for that information among my books.

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

joe, it has been a while since i was overthere...but i remember the shards to be black an white..some red...some brown..
which covers most of the period from around AD100-1400...not enough shards to suggest that a pottery factory was there..maybe scavanged pieces...
but i did not have the background information i now have, when i first noticed the site.

in the al sieber text...it describes the area below an apache camp in mexico...littered with abandoned goods taken in raids...horse bones, saddles, pots an pans..ect...

 

[somehiker]

sc:

Good info within that link. Although most of the studies were done a ways back, the theories mentioned may still hold water with current professionals.
Pottery shards were often collected, ground up and added as temper or slip to the clay's used for new pottery.
We have also seen long grooves and round holes in rock ledges and boulders in the mountains, where it's possible this grinding of gathered materials for tempering,slip and colouring may have been done.

Joe:

I'd have to check my references, but as I recall, micaceous clay had been in use by various Pueblo cultures for at least some time prior to the arrival of the Apache in the SW.
But I don't know if this included any groups in the Superstitions area, or when. Might be something mentioned in this lecture. I'll have to watch it again later.



and another:



Regards:Wayne

 

[Azhiker]

somehiker, secret canyon,

If you want to understand the difference in pottery material and design and the cultures involved, read the May 1967 National Geograpic articles : Masters of the American Desert and Magnetic Clues Date the Past.

The articles were written by Dr. Emil Haury who excavated hundreds of Hohokam, Salado, Singaua, Anasazi and modern indian sites including Snaketown and sites on the San Carlos Reservation. Dr. Louis DuBoise wrote the magnetic archeomagnetism article. Archeomagnetism was the process Dr. DuBoise developed to precisely date sites and materials which did away for the need for radio carbon dating. This was in 1967 ! These people definately were not CYA'ing themselves and their work and processes were so precise they are still being used today.

Haury and DuBoise unearthed and examined one and a half million pottery shards and cataloged hundreds of thousands of them.

They concluded while each culture preferred it's own material and design, even the Hohokam went through 3 major cultural revolutions which changed their designs and materials used. Other cultures copied neighboring cultures and all used whatever was at hand when they had nothing else. Both articles are real eye openers and cut through the speculation and guesswork of identifying and dating pottery and basic materials.

Azhiker