Ancient coin ? (Updated! more pics)

[history hunter]

I found this coin while metal detecting when I was a kid. I thought it was fake until I brought it to a coin show and a dealer said it was not necessarily fake. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about it?

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

I JUST RECEIVED A VERY NASTY PM FROM A TN MEMBER. I enjoy this hobby. I buy and sell antiquities, metal detect when I can find a place and enjoy sharing my knowlege and learning from others. I dont understand why this member would take my opinions so personally.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

So patina (rust) prevents further corrosion to metal objects. Obviously this coin has been cleaned and fashioned into a pendant so not helping much on age ID.

Maybe the Wisconsin coin is the one found in Arkansas lost after being found in Alabama?

Wonder if the professor/author has obtained pictures of all the coins in the age of the internet

Do you really think so? It looks original to me. There are a lot of companies making pendants from ancient coins nowadays bit keep in mind that this coin was found in the 70's.


It does seem odd to me that the professor/author would use such poor black and white pictures. Almost as if hiding something.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

After the nasty e-mail I received, I have decided to so some more searching to positively ID this item. I was called a lot of deleted names and now this has become personal. While it certainly appears to be a replica, we havent found what it was made for when and why.

The coins of Syracuse of the 3rd and 4th Century BC are amongst the most beautiful and are also exceedingly numerous. I have reason to believe this coin was copied many times. Here is the same horse and palm tree on a paperweight. http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cach...oin+horse+palm+tree&cd=17&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Here is a forum with a picture calling it a copy. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1492979/posts

"This Phoenician copy of a half-dollar-size coin from ancient Syracuse may provide definitive evidence supporting Professor Mark McMenamin's theory that the ancient Phoenicians were the first Old World explorers in the New World. The coin's Punic (Phoenician) horse is flanked by an uprooted palm tree representing Phoenicia. McMenamin wonders if the dangling roots may indicate the travelers' intent to "transplant" Phoenician culture to the New World."


BTW HistoryHunter maybe I missed it but what is the size? Could you check please? is it half dollar size?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Adding to the controversy:



http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/990108/mcman.html
McMenamin was delighted to hear that seven coins, supposedly struck by Carthage in 350 BC, have been found across North America by treasure hunters between 1840 and 1986. These coins, some of which were struck from the same dies, are apparently silver-plated counterfeits of silver coins in circulation in the Mediterranean region during the fourth century BC. "The copies appear to be very old and may have been struck in antiquity. If authentically minted by ancient Phoenicians, and assuming that the coins have not been planted to fool archaeologists, then these coins represent definitive evidence for a Phoenician presence in pre-Columbian North America," McMenamin said.



http://africanbynature.com/eyes/openeyes_thenewworld.html

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

I say send the coin to MARK MCMENAMIN. http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/990108/mcman.html

He has borrowed three of the coins and has conducted various tests on them. One incorporated a new technique he developed to assay the elemental makeup of corroded ancient coins using Mount Holyoke's scanning electron microscope and energy dispersive spectrometer. While discussing the possibility that the coins are forgeries, McMenamin provides scientific evidence suggesting they are more likely the genuine article, confirmation that the Phoenicians were here first.

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Ancient coin ?

You could send the coin to Professor Mark McMenamin, but you would be sending it to a geologist who was attempting to prove a point with material outside of his field of expertise. If you really want definitive answer you'd probably be better off sending it to the American Numismatic Association, or the Royal Numismatic Society, both addresses easily found on the web.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

You could send the coin to Professor Mark McMenamin, but you would be sending it to a geologist who was attempting to prove a point with material outside of his field of expertise. If you really want definitive answer you'd probably be better off sending it to the American Numismatic Association, or the Royal Numismatic Society, both addresses easily found on the web.

Someone please tell him we have another.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/misc/profile/mmcmenam.shtml

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Ancient coin ?

I'm not sure why anyone would still be talking about this. The reverse SCREAMS modern and it's not worth wasting a stamp to send it anywhere.

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Ancient coin ?

"I'm not sure why anyone would still be talking about this. The reverse SCREAMS modern and it's not worth wasting a stamp to send it anywhere."

Iron patch, I think the reason this dead horse is still getting beaten has to do with the perverse pleasure it would be to expose a few in the "establishment" as not being infallible.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

history hunter, here is an interesting link. http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/thumbnails.php?album=10&page=5

Im afraid I missed this post johnnyi. Pictured are at least 5 different known replica copies of this coin. I afraid its over. Too many replicas out there.

I'm not sure why anyone would still be talking about this. The reverse SCREAMS modern and it's not worth wasting a stamp to send it anywhere.

Like I said, I actually received a nasty e-mail about not being an expert.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Ancient coin ?

"I'm not sure why anyone would still be talking about this. The reverse SCREAMS modern and it's not worth wasting a stamp to send it anywhere."

Iron patch, I think the reason this dead horse is still getting beaten has to do with the perverse pleasure it would be to expose a few in the "establishment" as not being infallible.

In memory of Dano who joined the forum to fight the good fight, but will no doubt say goodbye shortly. So long old friend and beat the horse one more time for me!

 

[history hunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Here is a forum with a picture calling it a copy. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1492979/posts

"This Phoenician copy of a half-dollar-size coin from ancient Syracuse may provide definitive evidence supporting Professor Mark McMenamin's theory that the ancient Phoenicians were the first Old World explorers in the New World. The coin's Punic (Phoenician) horse is flanked by an uprooted palm tree representing Phoenicia. McMenamin wonders if the dangling roots may indicate the travelers' intent to "transplant" Phoenician culture to the New World."




BTW HistoryHunter maybe I missed it but what is the size? Could you check please? is it half dollar size?

bigcypresshunter, my coin is closer to quarter size. Thanks for your interest!

 

[Dano Sverige]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Lol,I hope Iron patch never gets jury duty for an innocent man accused of murder! "Hang 'em..then we can start the trial!" comes to mind.
The evidence you all throw up is seriously flawed,if not laughable!..."here's a COPY of the same coin." Um no,actually that horses mouth is closed and the tree has no roots!
"here's a site stating it's a copy!" ...while it's actually stating it's a Phoenician copy of a 4th century syracuse based coin,which also makes it a copy that is hundreds of years older than the Rosie's,mercury's,Indian heads,and everything else you Americans usually are ecstatic to find!

Basically,at the end of the day we're all just guessing arn't we? "the reverse screams modern..so it's not worth sending it anywhere!" ? um well Iron patch,to me the '69 moon landing screamed "fake as a $7 note!" but i doubt you'd take my word as "law" on that now..would you?

In the UK it's easy.They give their finds to a "finds liason officer" and he decides if it's old enough to be sent to a museum for tests and identification etc etc.After that,if it's genuine then museums can bid on the item and the finder splits whatever is paid to them with the land owner.Simple.

Send it to the experts and then let us know what they say.Should make a very interesting conclusion to an interesting thread!

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Lol,I hope Iron patch never gets jury duty for an innocent man accused of murder!
"here's a site stating it's a copy!" ...while it's actually stating it's a Phoenician copy of a 4th century syracuse based coin,which also makes it a copy that is hundreds of years older than the Rosie's,mercury's,Indian heads,and everything else you Americans usually are ecstatic to find!

Basically,at the end of the day we're all just guessing arn't we?

No, we're not all just guessing, there is no reasonable doubt, it is CLEARLY modern. Just because you lack experience and can't tell the difference doesn't mean others don't see it for what it is.

PS... There's a nice picture a few posts up, consider it dedicated to you!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

In the UK it's easy.They give their finds to a "finds liason officer" and he decides if it's old enough to be sent to a museum for tests and identification etc etc.After that,if it's genuine then museums can bid on the item and the finder splits whatever is paid to them with the land owner.Simple.

We are not just guessing Dano. We have considerable experience. All I hear from you is America bashing.


This is NOT an American forum. The owner resides in Europe. We have members from around the globe. The UK system is great but nobody is right 100 percent of the time. We have found a few errors in the UK finds database.

Everybody is welcome here but what is it with you and America bashing? Is that why you joined?

The evidence you all throw up is seriously flawed,if not laughable!..."here's a COPY of the same coin." Um no,actually that horses mouth is closed and the tree has no roots!

Study the two coins side by side in reply #63. You can see they are identical with the same roots and exactly the same denticals!! (a dentical is the little dots around the outside) These copys have exactly the same visible denticals in a failed attempt to make it appear to be worn. You cant see that?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

bigcypresshunter, my coin is closer to quarter size. Thanks for your interest!

Your welcome.

I know this isnt yours but its amazing the number of replicas that where made of this coin. Here is a silver replica medallion from Israel. http://shop.theanimalrescuesite.com/store/item.do?itemId=28187&siteId=310


Here is a letter opener with a replica pewter coin. http://www.imj-shop.co.il/eng/product.aspx?ProdId=373


Here is the paperweight. http://www.thefind.com/gifts/info-horse-coin

Heres a copy sold on eBay with the words "BECKER" stamped on rim. http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/thumbnails.php?album=18



I havent found the exact uprooted palm copy other than the b&w pics already posted but its only a matter of time. This is a very popular replica for medallions, paperweights, letter openers and I suspect zipper pulls as well.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

"The coin's Punic (Phoenician) horse is flanked by an uprooted palm tree representing Phoenicia. McMenamin wonders if the dangling roots may indicate the travelers' intent to "transplant" Phoenician culture to the New World". http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/990108/mcman.html

Its interesting for sure the dangling roots version and I cant find an authentic to compare it with. If I get a chance I will invite the Professor to the forum. Hopefully he will accept. He cannot ignore the significance of your find. Please stick around, it should get better.


Here is an authentic- price $14,000. http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/brNBBOX34EfLkHlCMG3y4g

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Ancient coin ?

HOLA amigos,
VERY cool find, and I would not assume it must be modern OR fake. It could well be "counterfeit" and ancient, or possibly a type of coin struck during a period of monetary problems for Carthage, as during the war with the Syracusan Greeks, which is the period when similar coins were struck. Silver plated coins are well known among ancient coins, I have been collecting Punic coins for some years now and examples like you found are NOT common.

I won't bore our readers with a full explanation of why I am convinced Carthage did in fact "discover" America, and that these mysterious plated coins turn up in various states of the US, you can read a short version online free

http://books.google.com/books?id=9n...+preston+peet+roy+decker#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I have been working on a book on ancient visitors to America for some years now but the 'Underground' piece sums it up fairly well.

Congrats on your RARE find amigo, I am VERY jealous!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

History hunter could you tell us more about where you found this and how deep it was?

Did you clean it? Was the brass ring on it when you found it?



This coin may be able to shoot the professors (Gloria Farley & Mark McMenamin) theories all to hell. It is what it is. For that it could be a banner find. Please stay in touch.