???????????????

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hello TOM, thanks for responding in a logical manner.

You quoted-------->

"But let's say that I claimed to you, that I could talk to the dead, see into the future, cast spells, etc... If I tried to tell you those things were merely naturally attainable, scientifically explainable, etc... You would tell me "Nope, it is occult. Those are not "natural things" at all."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tom, to point I could agree with your -"those are not natural things" with the qualifier, "in accordance with our PRESENT state of knowedge".

The very word "Occult" by definition means hidden, not necessarily impossible."
========================================================

"I mean c'mon Real, pick ANYTHING you would truly call superstition, occult, etc... Now, get that practice in your mind. Got it there? Ok, now, go apply all your same defenses about dowsing, and see how they too can also be used to prop up the very practices that even you would call occult. How can you deny those practioners the same lines that you use? "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I certainly don't, but I do have a tongue in cheek attitude, remembering that until just recently a prime occult practice of turning lead into gold was accomplished. Agreed that it is not practical, but it WAS DONE!
========================================================


No I'm not saying you don't sincerely believe that it's natural and scientific. I'm not saying you're on par with the trouble-maker goth kid who wants to get into spooky stuff. And yeah, spooky stuff can work!

Weird things go on in this world"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tell me, including my personal unexplainable experiences, including telepathy etc.
========================================================


"There's no way a brass rod finding a coin a mile away can be supported from science or natural abilities (ala, like heightened smell)."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you stated in another post, and I agreed, they are moved by the ideo response. But, how do you explain the physiological / Psychological factors involved in true dowsing to subconsciously cause the movement?,

My findings show that they do not send out a signal, but some of the bodies receptors do receive one from the desired object and process it into an ideo response.

I believe that we are going to have fun on this one Tom, including just how or why the body can handle an infinite no. of signals and select just the one that is pertinent..


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[aarthrj3811]

Hey Tom….If a Dowser tells me he can locate a silver coin at two miles I will believe him. I will also tell him that I can not find a silver dollar at two miles. As always it works a little different for each of us. Some people run faster than others or are better golfers. It all depends on the body and the brains muscle control. The fact that there are people who are locating objects with a Dowsing rod seems to make no difference to you. The rumors of digging until you find something is not what I have experienced. You do know that those Dowsers that seek treasures are a very small percent of the Dowsers in the world….Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

(3) Share your experience with those who have an interest, and freely help others (no charge, or salary) with the benefit of your knowledge and learned ability?

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Dowsers I know on this forum, including myself, practice #3. Dell

It's a good thing these people interested in dowsing have no desire to know how and why dowsing works, isn't it Dell? You've been asked that question numerous times and still haven't been able to come up with an answer....

 

[ClonedSIM]

Aft, you appear to be presenting a hypothetical question which is a product, of your own mind. Tayopa seemed to be referring to the ability of human sensors.

You speak of the ability of a Brass rod to locate a coin a mile away? Two different subjects. Show me the actual event where a Brass rod located a coin a mile away, then you may have substance for intelligent discussion. Dell

So are you saying that dowsing with a brass rod and the human senses aren't related? That the senses don't have anything to do with dowsing? Then what do you use?

Just ask around, Dell. I've read of dowsers on this forum that claim to be able to locate a coin at one mile with rods. Of course, I could be thinking of the numerous dowsers that make two or three posts then leave, but they are out there.

And here!

Hey Tom.If a Dowser tells me he can locate a silver coin at two miles I will believe him. Art

Art would believe him without proof. Why not you? Are you "skeptical" of such a claim?

 

[aarthrj3811]

Art would believe him without proof. Why not you? Are you "skeptical" of such a claim?

Gee af….You seem to believe everything you read about Dowsing from your sources. I think that people on a Treasure Hunting forum would be more believable than your sources. …Art

 

[dowser]

I would have to say yes to that coin thing. If it was facing me it would be easier than if it was flat to me.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

"Tom, it's irrelevant what you, or I "Believe". Truth has it's basis in fact, and vice versa"

Yes, I agree, people that "believe", believe that what they believe in, is fact. Yes, otherwise, they wouldn't believe in it, to begin with. So all we can do here is debate facts, not beliefs. And we disagree over what the "truth" or "facts" are, is the problem. You believe that dowsing works (I am still trying to figure where you stand on the "how" of it), and I don't believe they work. To the extent they might work, I attribute to supernatural, whether the user knows this or not. He may sincerely believe they are based in natural or scientific concepts, when in fact, he is dabbling into the supernatural - is my opinion.

"If indeed humans are capable of supernatural powers, you are right. If humans are not capable of supernatural powers you are wrong. "

Yes, my assertion will fall on death ears, if someone doesn't believe there are supernatural things going on. Real De Tayopa certainly believes in things beyond us, even to the point of admitting dabbling into telepathy, for instance. But Dell, if you believe the here & now is all there is, and there is nothing beyond us, then yes, my assertion will not make sense. In that case, the only other explanation is that dowsing works by some natural (like super keen hearing) or scientific means. I am still waiting for proof on this. Did you find the link to show the measurement of signal emitted from objects, treasures, etc...? I would very much like to see that (in all honesty, because that would be a disaster to skeptics)

"I certainly can not lay claim to any super natural power. Yet, I cannot deny that many of my Dowses have proved to be correct.

So put your self in my shoes. If you had practiced and learned to dowse with an increasing degree of accuracy for 25 years,

(1) Would you discontinue using it and deny the truth because an irrational skeptic declared that it was supernatural with inference that you are a lying, or mistaken about your experience?"

No, you may be totally sincere, not subscribing to any magical things, superstition, etc... I believe that a person can partake of these things w/o knowingly doing into it. Take for example the people who run their lives by horoscopes. How harmless right? Do they think that's dabbling into superstition? the spiritual or spooky side of things? Of course not! They probably think there is merit to how the stars line up, etc..... and that it is somehow scientific or natural. So too is dowsing. Do dowsers think they are dabbling into supernatural things? Of course not! They, like the horoscope folk, think there's a rational (known or unknown at present) explanation.

"(2) Use your ability for financial gain to earn a living?

(3) Share your experience with those who have an interest, and freely help others (no charge, or salary) with the benefit of your knowledge and learned ability?"

Sure, dowse all you want. I would not dabble in it, just as I would not take stock in my horoscope. The issue is not your sincerity, helping others, your possible successes at finds, etc... The issue is when dowsers want to say it's explainable in scientific terms, or natural abilities.

NOW, ask and answer the same questions regarding your own learned abilities, or self developed talent.

Which did You choose with regard to the regular practice of your own learned ability?

The Dowsers I know on this forum, including myself, practice #3. Dell

 

[aarthrj3811]

To the extent they might work, I attribute to supernatural, whether the user knows this or not. He may sincerely believe they are based in natural or scientific concepts, when in fact, he is dabbling into the supernatural - is my opinion.

So if I can Dowse it is because it is Supernatural. Can you tell me what is wrong in dabbling into the supernatural ? Many years ago I raced dirt bikes with some of the best in America. Was that a supernatural thing ? I read the definitions for the word supernatural and saw nothing but what some people thought. I see people driving race cars a few inches from each other at 200 MPH without hitting the other car. Is that also supernatural ? Art

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Art, no, dirt bikes and race cars are not supernatural. They are quite natural. The workings of a gasoline combustion engine, the drive-train, etc.. etc... are all laid out in any automotive manual. Each time you turn the key of a working system, the car or bike turns on. Each time you put it in gear, it will move forward. Each time you hit the gas, it will accelerate. This will be true and repeatable, no matter what person does it. The fact that some racers are more skilled than others, is also not supernatural. Those various persons are within the realms of natural. Take the absolute worst driver, all the way up to the best driver (Evil Knievel, Kenny Roberts, Wayne Rainey, etc..). You have the bottom and the top of the "realm" of natural. Supernatural though, would be to do things that are not humanly or scientifically possible.

As to "what is wrong in dabbling to the supernatural?", before I answer that, I want to be sure: Are you saying that you do agree with this explanation for dowsing now?

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

There are many things which are patently true which no one can explain. A simple example is the bumble bee. Every aeronautical engineer will tell you that it is not possible for the bumble bee to fly. The bumble bee isn't blessed with an education and flies anyway.
Do you think that the Cy Young winners can explain the aerodynamic properties of the pitches they throw? Most likely not and why should they have to?
How about the Super Bowl quarterbacks. Can any of them explain the reason why an oblate spheroid will travel in a straight line to a desired location barring an interception? Not likely and why should they? They are happy with the results they get.
The people who demand explanations have the option of doing the research themselves. They should anyway because whenever an explanation is offered by a dowser they either disagree or call them liars.
I'm sure we would all welcome any real research they would care to report. siegfried schlagrule

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Siegfried and Dell, here's how I would respond: All those examples (bees flying, 4 minute mile, etc....) although once thought impossible, or not now understood, are still within the realm of natural. In the case of the 4 minute mile, even though no one had yet done it at one time (at least not clocked), yet someday someone WOULD do it. Therefore it was always, even before it had been done, "natural". Now, what if I told you I could run that mile in 2 seconds? Would you believe that someday humans can attain to that?

To me, the supposed ability of the human body to make a rod swing in the direction of a coin or diamond, a mile away, and calling that natural, is akin to saying I can run a mile in 2 seconds. Just impossible, defying the laws of physics, no scientific explanation, etc..... Sure, the next guy can shave another 1 second off the world record, but at some point, there is a law of diminishing returns. To say otherwise, means you believe NOTHING is "impossible". Can I lift a mountain with my fingertip if I exercise super super hard and eat lots of vitamins? How can you deny me that claim? It's the same thing with the claims of dowsing. Seeminly impossible, lacking scientific proof, yet propped up by showing examples of persons who hacked a few seconds off the world running record? Propped up by pointing to an aerodynamic insect we don't understand? Propped up by pointing out that a football spins cylindrically? An interesting hypothesis, but I don't think that it prooves that dowsing can therefore be within the realms of natural, anymore than me someday moving that mountain with my fingertip, with nothing but natural means.

If a scientific explanation could explain the rod moving, then I'd be fine with that. But to say it's "function of the brain" (like a super heightened sense of smell), is to me, to say we can naturally attain to the impossible, with enough practice.

I know someone will come along and say "but your premise of impossibility is wrong, since it HAS been done, therefore it's possible, not impossible" right? To which I will respond, as always: 1) I suspect it's hunches and random chance, with failures (dry holes) written off to outside influences of that day, and 2) if there were undoubtable successes to dowsing treasure, I would classify that in a supernatural realm, not natural or scientific.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Art would believe him without proof. Why not you? Are you "skeptical" of such a claim?

Gee af….You seem to believe everything you read about Dowsing from your sources. I think that people on a Treasure Hunting forum would be more believable than your sources. …Art

Sure, every person that shows up on an internet chat board for one day, says he can find a coin at a mile away with a coathanger, then suddenly leaves, is surely a fountain of truth and honesty.

Therein lies your problem, Art. You believe anything anyone says, as long as it agrees with your point-of-view.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Just ask around, Dell. I've read of dowsers on this forum that claim to be able to locate a coin at one mile with rods. Of course, I could be thinking of the numerous dowsers that make two or three posts then leave, but they are out there.

I said "I consider it to be within the realm of possibility". I have never done it, so I don't have that personal experience to speak from. Dell

Fair enough. What about the "human senses/dowsing" issue?

 

[ClonedSIM]

There are many things which are patently true which no one can explain. A simple example is the bumble bee. Every aeronautical engineer will tell you that it is not possible for the bumble bee to fly. The bumble bee isn't blessed with an education and flies anyway.

It is believed that the calculations which purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle.

This isn't my definition, but I've heard the whole "bumble-bee flight can't be explained" compared to dowsing before, so I just thought I'd interject.


Turns out it can be explained.......

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Herein lies the problem: Let's say that I'm right that it's supernatural. Thus science will never explain it. Not a problem: you and future dowsers have that covered: "just be patient, and someday it will be explained"

Since "tomorrow" and the "future" never comes (as the old saying goes), then your defense is bullet proof. As long as science continues not to explain it, proponents can continue to say "in the future it will." How can someone debate that? Since none of us will live to see 100 yrs. from now. And the people 100 yrs. from now, will also not live to see a hundred years beyond them, and on and on it goes.

The only thing I can say to this defense, is to say that you must also be fair, and extend the use of line of reasoning, to anything, no matter how seemingly absurd. To not allow this, is to be intellectually unfair. How do YOU know what future science will or won't reveal? You don't, just as I don't. So anything might someday be proven, that we, here in the year 2007, thought might be random chance, hunches, supernatural, etc....

I gaurantee you that I can take a peanut butter sandwhich, point it at a certain park I have in mind, squint real hard, think deep, and walk out in the park. When I sense it dipping at a spot, I'll whip out the detector. Within 4 ft. of me, I gaurantee you I can find an old coin (wheatie, silver, etc...). You know why? The success of my sandwich! But wait you say, this doesn't make sense, since the sandwich is not conductive (as the brass rods are). But see, that's the beauty of it: future science will proove how non-conductive items can also work. This is evidenced by the fact that I can find coins in a park with it, thus, by definition, it IS scientific (known or unknown to us)

Future science is a wonderful thing.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Like the bumble bee, and like mental Dowsing, if you live long enough Science will be able to explain it. So why don't you guys just be patient and wait for science, instead of badgering and demanding Scientific answers from non-Scientist? Dell

How do you know science will ever be able to explain it, Dell? Isn't it possible that science won't explain it because there is no scientific explanation? After all, science has attempted to explain dowsing. Would you consider, just for a moment, that an explanation hasn't been found because it doesn't exist?

Can't find what's not there, right?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well Dell, one thing I have to say is, to say "future science unknown to us now", is a better stab than some of the folks who come up with strings of auras, fields, magnetics, sunflares, signals, etc..... At least you're, in a way, saying "I/we don't know". If it were put that way, I would understand it better.

But you must at least admit, that, by the same token that unknown future science may proove how dowsing scientifically works (once the brain and subconscious are understood better), so too may future science proove the impossibility of it - that is, that it is not scientific, and thus spiritual in nature. In other words, each side (the pro's and the con's) can each lean on "future science that may back up their view". So with that, I suggest that each side no longer mention unknown future science, and we stick to currently known science.

Agreed?

 

[ClonedSIM]

Well Dell, one thing I have to say is, to say "future science unknown to us now", is a better stab than some of the folks who come up with strings of auras, fields, magnetics, sunflares, signals, etc..... At least you're, in a way, saying "I/we don't know". If it were put that way, I would understand it better.

But you must at least admit, that, by the same token that unknown future science may proove how dowsing scientifically works (once the brain and subconscious are understood better), so too may future science proove the impossibility of it - that is, that it is not scientific, and thus spiritual in nature. In other words, each side (the pro's and the con's) can each lean on "future science that may back up their view". So with that, I suggest that each side no longer mention unknown future science, and we stick to currently known science.

Agreed?

This works for me, I suppose. But can we still question and disprove the dowsers that do attempt to use bogus scientific terms to define dowsing?

 

[jeff of pa]

Scientist, I have known are a lot smarter than you seem to give credit.

To try to answer both your questions with the logic of my opinion, If, there is no funding incentive for Scientist, and Dowsing is not a priority for science, and very little is yet known about the complex workings of the Brain, and mind, with very limited Brain studies on how dowsing information is accessed, and processed by the brain, it's possible it may well be a hundred years or so, before Scientist gets around to actively studying the subject of mental Dowsing, or related physics.

Unfortunately, unless you have a better source of information than my postings, you are stuck with the personal experience of this uneducated Kentucky Hillbilly. That's the reality, so be nice to Dowsers on this forum and stop harassing dowsers with repeated asinine questions and inferences that neither of us can answer. Take it, or leave it? Dell

I can Agree with this.

 

[dowser]

Maybee when Scientists invent a machine to read Dowsible Anomalies, they'll invent one to measure Gravity also.