1715 fleet pop quiz

[mariner]

Chagy,

Great pics. Thanks. Yes, you guys have got an advanced case of the fever. Not even House could help all of you.

Am torn between checking into a 1715 detox center before it is too late, going to a 1715 Anonymous meeting, or getting on a plane to Florida. Must be nearing stage 2 because the plane is starting to look like the best route!

Keep up the good work.

Mariner

 

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[Galleon Hunter]

I have read enough original archival documentation to concure the Weller was right in his belief that the Cabin Wreck is the San Romain and Corrigan's is the location of the Regla. Why all the confussion, probably because that other way around was the way it was first stated in Gold Galleons and Archaeology. You have to remember too that Clausen in "Treasure Ship" originally believe the Colored Beach wreck to be the Almiranta, based soley on the large amount of gold coins recovered there. They didn't take into account that the cannons there were small 7 1/2 footer, designed more for a smaller vessel, while the cannons off Rio Mar are much larger.

I originally believed the only positively identified wreck was the Urca de Lima, especially since it was made a state underwater archaeological preserve by the state of FL. I think there are now some SERIOUS doubts about the identity of that ship in particular. People have always assumed it to be the wreck of the Urca de Lima because it sank relatively intact, (much like the description, it actually survived the hurricane, but then accidently pierced her own hull with an anchor after the storm had passed. Buy the sextant readings were off and people have just assumed whoever took the reading was mistaken. Well what if the Spaniard that took the reading was correct Then the wreck is off the Fort Pierce Inlet, and the survivor statement that his wreck "is the furthest one south" is accurate. The statement would NOT be correct if the Urca de Lima is off Pepper Park in Fort Pierce because the Colored Beach Wreck is further south. there are other pieces of the puzzle too that I won't elaborate on here other than they just don't add up. I think Dave Jordan found the true Urca de Lima off St Lucie, the La Holandesa is what HRd found off Vero Beach and the Concepcion is what Rex Stocker found off Canaveral.


Mad4wrecks, loved the picture of you sleeping. I looks like you are reading MY book! Is that the book I wrote and if so, sorry it put you to sleep....

GH

 

[Chagy]

I tuck that picture...lol.....and yes its your book but don't worry we have a few pictures of Tom in the same position with different books, so is not the book is just Tom..aka...Sleep4wrecks

 

[mad4wrecks]

I agree with you Galleon Hunter. Remember however, that it took Weller some time to come to that same conclusion. He flip-flops his opinion from the first edition of 'Sunken Treasure on Florida Reefs' to the revised second edition.

Also that means there should still be a couple hundreds chests of silver coins at Corrigans and lots more gold.

When you wrote, "Well what if the Spaniard that took the reading was correct Then the wreck is off the Fort Pierce Inlet", I think you meant to say 'St Lucie Inlet?' And I wish Dave Jordan success on that site!

Now....where is the Mari Gallera

Chagyman.......it' been so long the last time you were in the water, you are going to need a PADI refresher course.

 

[Chagy]

Now....where is the Maria Galante?

Chagyman.......it' been so long the last time you were in the water, you are going to need a PADI refresher course.

The Galante is right were we left her

And yes my gills are starting to close

 

[allen_idaho]

I'm a bit torn on the subject, given recent developments. On one hand, the treasure is still there for the taking and if you only find a few coins here and there, you won't raise any eyebrows.

On the other hand, if you do find that motherlode of treasure, one of two things will probably happen.
1. It will be taken away by the state of florida, or;
2. It will be taken away by Spain.

So my question is, if Odyssey Marine can lose 500 million to the Spanish government, does that not open the floodgates for Spain to to lay claim to pretty much anything that is recovered from this point forward?

So the time and effort to search for 1715 fleet wrecks may be for not. That is just how I look at it anyway.

 

[billinstuart]

Glad to see this thread continuing. I'm particularly interested in the Urca/St. Lucie inlet connection, since I'm 3 miles from there. Tiger Shores is the site of reported sightings of cannon, but little has been found on the beach. The area is regularly scoured by lobster hunters; I've never heard any mention of shipwreck related material from anyone.

The present inlet was dynamited to open the reef. Otherwise, there is a submerged longshore reef that extends from Jupiter north, where it merges with the shoreline near the powerplant. The rest of the coast has some reef/sandbar.

Unfortunately, the area of Tiger Shores has been destroyed by our county "coastal engineer". Beach renourishment and a huge pile of sand crap has buried anything from that era.

Even though the cannons haven't been relocated, the source is credible and leaves a tantalizing clue.

Bill

 

[Galleon Hunter]

Yes, Tom I did mean to say St. Lucie.

The Ucra de Lima WAS the one wreck that I thought was identified for sure... but

1 According to the survivors account, the wreck was the furthest south "which if it is the Wedge Wreck...it is NOT the furthest south. Unless of course it is off St. Lucie.

2 The reported sextant reading taken at the time does NOT put it off Ft Pierce. Historians have always assumed the sextant reading to be wrong, but these guys lived on the sea, for a trained Spanish navigator to make a wrong reading would be like me putting my shoes on the wrong feet. I just don't see it happening, unless they couldn't take an accurate reading.

3 The ballast pile of the wedge wreck is longer than the Urca de Lima was, the math just doesn't add up.

4 More cannons were found on the Wedge Wreck than were aboard the Ucra de Lima. The Spaniards had laws forbiding the use of cannons as ballast, so how can there be MORE cannons than were carried.

Si I believe the "REAL" Urca de Lima is off the St. Lucie Inlet, and thus the farthest south and at the correct latitude. Since in sank intact as opposed to being smashed to pieces, I think it was thoroughly salvaged and thus NO coins found in the area on the beach.

So what is the Wedge Wreck? NOT a 1715 Wreck

5. To my knowledge, NO dated coins have ever been found on the wedge wreck, just the silver wedges "no dating marks" and uncut emeralds "also undatable" Now I could be wrong on this account, so if any dated coins have been recovered, correct me

So the Cabin Wreck is the San Romain (yes Weller did correct this in his revised edition of Sunken Treasure on FL Reefs...The Regla is Corrigans

The Real Urca de Lima is off St. Lucie Inlet,
HRD has a wreck off Vero Beach, probably the lower section of the La Holandesa, "The superstructure was ripped off and went ashore near Castaway Cove in Vero beach and Echeverz used it as his head quarters but I believed the rest of the ship was blown north into HRD's area since myself and other have recovered coins in the area that are definately from the 1715 fleet and the wreck located by Rex Stocker off Canaveral is the Concepcion.

Anyway, that is my conclusions that are be presented in my book

GH

 

[ivan salis]

of the 3 "missing vessels" of Echeverz's fleet --two are not "offically" listed as carrying money -- non treasure items were their cargo * ---the NAO class vessel "san miguel" which was "offically" listed as carrying tabacco --it was cut loose on the way inward bound voyage --as they went by -- to go to havana do so --and rejoined the fleet upon their return to havana on their "homeward" bound leg. of the voyage. *thus she spent a very very long time in havana --and as such was most likely loaded to the gills with "smuggled" gold.

the 2nd missing vessel --- the french prize vessel "el ciervo" or "la galeria" as its often called --"offical cargo" listed as 96 tons of brazilwood (a type of dye wood) -- she was in porto bella * a treasure port --- and also most likely had "smuggled" gold as well

the third vesel is the only one of 3 "missing" vessels that "offically" had money listed as being onboard ---8,503 pesos and 3 reales in gold --on the NAO class NUESTRA SENORA DE LOS CONCEPCION - (some men from it were found washed ashore near the cape * after clinging to wreckage and floating for a few days at sea)

the pilot major of the fleet in his testimony stated that --4 vessels ( that would be the griffon and the "3 missing vessels" had broke ranks the day before the main part of the storm hit the fleet and thus they were on a more northly tack -- thus they would have been farther north when the storm struck them === than the currently known 8 vessels in the 1715 fleet wreck site area are.

the level of smuggling on these vessels was unreal -- the kings 20% tax on incoming wealth to spain was highly unpopular -- as a matter of fact --once the "salvage" took place --more gold was recovered than was "offically" listed on the vessels manifest --- opps--a clear sign of massive smuggling * since whatever losses that occured in the wrecks were covered by the excess "illegal" smuggled gold---- people in charge of the fleets were called on the carpet by the king when word of the "salvaged" amounts of treasure were found to be in excess of the manifested amount , gold was the preferred smugglers money --due to its 16 to 1 value to silver at the time.

 

[Salvor6]

Dell I don't see how that is possible because:
1. The ships were sailing close together in fleet formation.
2. The wind pushed all the vessels to the west.

 

[ivan salis]

dell while there might be other treasure wrecks near bimini , nothing I read or heard of to lead me into believing any of the 1715 fleet vessels might be that way -- the fleet was more or less together in a group until 2 days or so before the main storm stuck --the 4 vessels that broke away headed on a more northly tack ( that would be the griffon, plus the concepcion, the nao san miguel and the french prize aka el ciervo from echeverz fleet)--taking into account the area where the main fleet was -- plus the more northly route of the 4 "detatched vessels"--plus the wind direction that the hurricane came and blew from--- are all dead wrong for a vessel to go that way. --- now there might be vessels (pirate looters lets say) from around the year 1715 time frame that were not part of the fleet that swiped treasure & wrecked there carrying some looted treasure--thats possible --but from the "actual 1715 main fleet" --all the known evidence points toward --no-- sorry --Ivan

 

[ivan salis]

there are several chests listed as "gifts for the queen" loaded on Ubilla's flag ship -- emeralds were known to be part of the contents --a exact listing of the full contents are not fully known to my knowledge --since being for the royals --it didnot need to be "manifested " or accounted for like regular folks stuff was ( be cause their stuff was taxed --it had to be accounted for --to insure no "smuggling" occured -- if you said --I have 12 gold bars when going on the vessel and paid the 20% tax --then upon reaching spain you best be taking off only 12 bars --not 14 . thus why it was "manifested" or declared. ---since the royals paid no tax ( what pay taxes to themselves?) the items were merely counted via bulk lot or by weight sometimes--a chest of emeralds or jewelry ,blah , blah in a rather crude fashion except for gold or silver coinage.

bimini is to the east of florida -- however if the vessels are close to the coast --if they were to try to sail towards it they would have to fight the winds -- it was like this florida coast --ships-- hurricane -- bimini --thus they would have to go thru and against the storm winds -- something sail driven vessels of the day really couldn't hardly do even if they were foolish enough to try it -- they run with the wind --to escape the storm if possible by putting distance between them and it --see the northly vessels attempt --the others were too heavy laden and into close to shore to be able to fast sail away from the storm-- the griffon survived by "fast sailing" using all her sails to get away and going northward and thus avoiding the main storm--then cutting eastward to breast, france --avoiding the following storm the next day that ran up the east coast line . --thus she dodged the bullets---- the first one --the hurricane took out the 8 of the main "treasure" fleet the following serious storm of the next day took out the other 3 more northly tacked vessels along the east coast --the griffon alone made it safely .

it is possible that there were 1715 era "private" trading vessels not with the fleet that could easily have treasure on board them , that sank in bimini --

 

[Tropic Cat]

Ahoy!!!!!

Whats up RelicD.!!!

There are many theories..... that they are on the other side of the road in the river, that they are under the road or the buildings behind the dunes, that they are further north or south and that they are in deeper waters. Be careful once you get bit by the 1715 bug you will never be the same again

http://catalpa.amberdell.com/1715_treasure.html

As the owner of the link mentioned in your post, I figured i would comment on the speculation in this thread.

First, let me say that I'm local. I've lived in central Florida for 21 years. We are finding coins in Melbourne, FL. Most are found in the 'trench' which is the point where waves bottom as they break onto the beach. Best success is after a passing storm at sea. There simply isn't a way this could happen if there wasn't a wreck close to shore at this point.

I'm confident in stating that there is at least one 1715 ship in the Melbourne area.

As for Cape Canaveral? I don't think so. Lot's of stuff comes ashore there, but it's mostly drugs floating in from smugglers avoiding interdiction from the Coast Guard. I don't know anyone who has recovered 1715 artifacts there.

Regards

 

[ivan salis]

of the three unaccounted for or missing vessels -- one vessel is thought to be lost around melborne ( rex's group has found a dated pistol from the rough time frame-- the coins you speak of might be from it) --- archive records record survivors from the concepcion that floated offshore for a couple on a hatch cover days before being found near the cape * which along with the numerous reefs in the area --leads many to think she went down near there --- the final vessel some think went down either on the north coast of st augustine or on the coast north of st augustine --its open to how one "reads" then info in the records of the spanish archives .

 

[signumops]

OK, so what's the story with the PollyL on Google Earth?

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Don't you mean, of the Five unaccounted for or missing vessels?

 

[ivan salis]

this the my accounting of the 1715 fleet to the best of my knowledge at this current time.

according to the pilot major of the fleets testimony -- there was a total of 11 spanish vessels and the french vessel griffon * for a total fleet of 12 vessels --- about av day or so before the hurricane storm hit the fleet -- 4 vessels left the rest and went on a "more northly" tack -- this was --the french vessel griffon , the nao concepcion , the tabbaco hauling nao san miguel and the vessel known as "el ciervo" or the french prize .

this left a total of 8 vessels of the "main fleet" left together --this was all 5 vessels of Ubillas fleet (the NS de la regla, the san roman, the nieves, the urca de lima and ubillas private vessel the former english prize vessel "maria galante" gotten from echeverz)--- also there was the 2 treasure vessels from echeverz fleet and the "dutch"prize vessel of many names --- "la holandesa" (the dutch) or the "senora de la popa" also -- "the san miguel" as well

most folks agree that there are 8 ==1715 fleet vessels in the main fleet wreck area between the douglas beach area (the Neives) in the south to the sebastian inlet park in the north ( the NS Regla)

with the griffon accounted for --she made breast france *, that only leaves 3 vessels unaccounted for * one might be near melborne up by the cape * the nao concepcion -- records say that men from the concepcion were rescued near the cape after floating for a couple days offshore on a hatch cover.---that would leave 2 vessels as missing ---admiral salmon(the man in charge of the salvage and the #2 in command of the fleet under Ubilla --who had died) say in his letter of sept 20th,1715 that 9 vessels were accounted for --( meaning the 8 lower wrecks plus the concepcion ) and "of the 2 missing "galleons" --(a term used for echeverz fleet of vessels) there is little doubt that they sank in deep water as wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the ( translation is open to debate in my veiw ) NORTH COAST OF / COAST NORTH OF st augustine.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

That was then, what about today? I still maintain that as of today we only know the exact location of six of the wrecks, and 5 wrecks have eluded detection by modern salvers.

Nueva Espana Fleet
Neustria Senora de la Regla - Cabin Wreck, 2 miles south of Sebastian inlet
Urca de Lima aka Santissima Trinidad - Wedge Wreck, 1.5 miles south of Ft. Pierce inlet.
Neustria Senora de las Nieves – Colored Beach Wreck, 2.5 miles south of Ft. Pierce inlet.
Maria Galante –
Santa Crist de San Roman – Corrigan’s Wreck, Just south of Wabasso Beach

Galeones de Tierra Firma Fleet
Neustria Senora del Carmen aka Hampton Court – Rio Mar Wreck, 900 feet off the first green Rio Mar Golf Course.
Neustria Senora de la Concepcion –
El Senor San Miguel –
La Olandesa aka San Miguel –
Neustria Senora del Rosario – Sandy Point Wreck, 500 feet off shore at Sandy Point.
El Cievro aka La Galleria –

 

[ivan salis]

the maria galante --ubilla's "private" vessel was a very smallish english frigatilla that had been taken as a "prize" off of porto bello by echeverz and later sold to Ubilla who because of storm losses to his fleet badly needed a small type "advice" vessel -- due to its very small size it may not had much if any ballast stones and might have used cargo as ballast instead ( cargo pays / stones do not)-- thus no ballast pile would be present for it --most folks look for a "ballast pile" to declare a wreck site ( since the state archies want a ballast pile to give a exact "location" radius to the claim)--its thought ito be down near the neives* another frigate type vessel -- 4 out of the 5 Ubilla fleet vessels are known to be in the "main fleet" wreck area -- with the 5th the maria galante thought to be there as well.

both of the main treasure vessels of Echeberz fleet are known to be down in the "main fleet wreck area" as well with the vessel know as the "Olandesa" having to be close by (thus in the area) since Echeverz wrote a letter stating "from the real (salvage camp) of the Olandesa" --he was living in some of the upper deck works (cabins) that came ashore while doing the salvage on his treasure vessels -- so it must be close by his 2 treasure vessels * logic says.

of the other 3 vessels of Echeverz 's fleet -- they were part of the 4 vessel "mini fleet" that broke away *a short bit before the hurrucane hit the "main" fleet headed on a "more northly tack" accounding to the pilot majors testimony-- the concepcion in the archives has survivors recorded as being found by the cape * after floating for a couple days off shore on a hatch cover -- the SENOR SAN MIGUEL (THE NAO TABACCO HAULER) AND THE EL CIERVO rough whereabouts unknown -- althought salmon does say "wreckage of a large or vessels was found on the north coast of / coast north of st augustine" it may or may not be from these vessels -- unlike the concepcion there were no survivors to ask what happen to them.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Ivan, so based on what you just stated, I take it that you are saying that there are actually 5 ships that have not yet been found?

Maria Galante – You believe is someplace south of modern day Ft. Pierce inlet
Neustria Senora de la Concepcion – Somewhere near the southern shoals of Cape Canaveral
El Senor San Miguel – Possibly north of St Augustine
La Olandesa aka San Miguel – Probably between Rio Mar and Sandy Point
El Cievro aka La Galleria – Possibly north of St Augustine