1715 fleet pop quiz

basically yes.

the el senor san miguel and el ciervo --either off shore of st augustine area --thus the letters meaning would be ---wreckage was found on the "north" coast of st augustine ( ie near st augustine) --or---- north of it --as in wreckage was found on the coast "north" of st augustine ( farther north above st augustine up to possibily the nassau sound area)

the olandesa is most likely shallow close to shore ---being it was a smaller vessel in size and the upper deck works sheared off when she hit botton sticking fast most likely coming in rather intact surfboard style on the shoreline ( thats why Echeverz could use it as a shelter during salvage as he wrote that he did ) so its got to be fairly close by the other 2 treasure wrecks of his.--he was not going to be far from the treasure wrecks while salvaging them .

the maria galante ( the padre off of it was sent out for help according to the records so it must be in the main fleet wreck area)--I believe is most likely close to the location of the Nieves ( both smaller vessels similar sailing profile )--with her small size there might not be a "rock" type ballast pile --because she might have carried cargo as ballast instead (cargo pays --rocks do not)


the concepcion can be either in melborne or around the soouthern part of the cape area in general --due to the survivors found off the hatch cover clue.

I have more info and ideals but their not for free. :wink: :icon_thumright:
 

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Fishing and catching lobsters?Thats heartland treasure quests lease.The polly is working for them.
 

its thought by some folks that rex has possibly hit the "concepcion's" area of loss -- if the polly L is south of rex's spot -- it might be on the scatter trail of it as it went northward on the storms winds and waves after being damaged.
 

Nope, not Rex's wreck. Storm went north. Only PollyL people know the scoop at this particular location.
 

Several years ago some diver girl that i talked to said she was looking for lobsters right off the beach.She said she saw alot of pottery shards that looked like they were old from china.She told me about where it was.I never went and checked it out.The polly-L is in this area.But i did tell heartland about it cause i thought it was in their lease area.
 

I'd a dropped the bugs and latched onto the shards. ;D
 

I'll throw in my humble opinion and necro this....

I won’t drag into the ships at this time…

1) Is the 1715 Fisher/Brisben leases still worth working?

As with many things I defer to those who have more knowledge than I.

Some treasure finding legends have told me- in a nutshell of a paraphrase. “There’s 100 times more treasure to be found than what we’ve already found!”

"$700 million to $900 million by conservative estimates, according to Dr. R. Duncan Mathewson III"

There was a question about all the years they have been hunted by “greats of our brotherhood (and sisterhood :wink: ) why haven’t they found it all, aren’t the sites “empty” with all the salvors over all the years.

I can answer this from experience. Like John Brandon told me, nobody can get it all, everybody misses some. I’ve dug old holes of his and he’s dug old holes of others and found treasure!

Let’s take an operation with investors looking to get a return.
Are they willing to take the chance of spending a whole season “looking/trying” for new areas?
With all the hype that people start with does the “searching” fill that desire?
I believe for most that I’ve encountered the short answer is NO.

So most salvors go to the same areas and rework them. There’s a mentality of; “there’s silver coins up on the reef” and it’s just a matter of putting in the time to dig em up. “everybody misses something”

Bringing up treasure feeds the fire, keeps crew morale up, keeps investors happy and reinvesting for the next season.
Spending what few good weather days we have trying new places getting empty hole after empty hole gets old for everyone involved.

That’s why I’m attempting to put together a 5 year operation out of the gate.
Which leads me to a couple thoughts for a new post so as to not highjack this post.
 

I wanted to thank all of you for such an interesting post topic. My name is David Jordan and the owner of the Tigershores project. I wanted to add some thoughts that I have about my wreck site.

First the Florida BHR system of support is non-existent and I personnaly had in 6 years 4 seperate Archeologist assigned to my project. None of which ever stepped foot on my salvage site. The first archeologist tried to have me give the site to the state to prove I am not a professional salvor. The second told me the state knows I found a 1715 site and he wished me luck getting at it, as he departed to another job out of state. The third and fourth lied to me constantly.

Currently I have thousands of documented mag hits, my visual of a stack of cannons and Dr. Eugene Lyons personal kudos for having found a missing wreck site at Tigershores and Bernard Romans map and book detailing the wreck site. All of these things 27 years after I saw the stack of cannon.

I had to temporarily halt furtherwork on my site as I am planning litigation against several State and Federal agencies that have systematically created barriers for my salvage project. My lawyers are currently preparing my argument and case.

I appreciate the thoughts and support that have helped "keep me going" even with a state and federal government that does not support true Americans over foreign entities that would strip America of all we are. I am a retired Navy Chief with 23 years in military service and still believe in the American way regardless of what our government has turned into.

Please wish me luck as I try to tame the Tiger that has become "Big Brother". Not only is he watching you, he is picking your fate for you. I believe several hundred years ago the English did this on a much smaller scale.

The Tigershores project has not gone away as of yet!
 

Dave, it is good to see you posting here again and to learn that you have not given up on your project. I wish you success in your legal battles and in the (hopefully) subsequent exploration & salvage of your site.

For those that don't know, Dave joined a number of us at the state meeting in Ponte Vedra several years ago and gave a rather eloquent speech at the obstacles he was dealing with on his Tiger Shore project. :icon_thumright:

Tom Gidus
 

Tigershores,
Keep up the good fight and thank-you for doing so and thanks for your service!

To paraphrase, These men need to be exposed and the people need to know their names!
 

yes "tiger shores" you have hit the nail squarely on its head. --the "problem" is that trhe state and federal govt is taking sides against legit american salvors * in favor of a "foreign' country (spain) and their bogus "claims" of all spanish treasure vessels being warships and thus immune to salvage * -- if the fed and state govt's "mindset" is that these treasure vessels are "warships" then of course they will never issue any salvage permits for them --ever - (because by international treaty "warships" were to be off limits to salvage * funny how cuba asked america for the ok to clear spanish warships from the spanish american war after said treaty was made) -oh of course you will be able to get the "--exploration type permits" -- in other words spend YOUR ( and /or investors) money doing FREE research for the state ( since part of the agreement is that you share all data generated in your explorations with the state) of course you do this with no hope of ever getting any fiscal return on your investment at all ( throwing any investors money down such a " money pit" is great way to get sued by your investors for gross misuse of funds and most likely will ruin any chance of getting any future investors as well.)

the state is great about issue look and see type permits --but actual --ok you found it now bring it off the bottom for salvage / sale and profiet --nope --if your a "for profiet" salvor the deck has been stacked against you for a long long time -- ever since MEL --took on and beat the feds and state of florida in ciourt --the 2 govts have worked hand in glove to shut out salvors -- first they shut off access to the fed maritime "salvage" courts that mel used to win --via the "new law" they cooked up --"the abandoned shipwreck act" --- which in effect gave over what should have been federal maritime court cases --over to the local states in whos "states" waters the wrecks were in --- insuring that only in the case of a modern ship salvage can the federal courts be used by salvors .



-the "abandoned shipwreck act"--this act was the first shot on the war on salvors * -- florida by the judges orders in the mel fisher case was to set up a permitting process where by "permits" were to be issued * (thiis was to prevent "spiteful" state folks who lost the case from not issusing permits )--however the judge left the state a loop hole that the state govt asked for (the fed govt tipped them off to ask for it)-- they did not have to issue permits for "historical preserve spots" and for "aquatic preserve zones"-- so as soon as possible --the state of florida made many many more of these "zones" than they ever had before --to shut off access to possible goood hunting grounds for salvors.

these actions are not random events --they are a long term --put the salvors out of bussiness plan -- all due to the fact that "the powers that be" did not like losing to a honest citizen with a just claim in court.
 

David you need a call to arms.

Relying on lawyers may work in the end after 10 or 20 years. You have to make this more of a public issue. The Government against the will of the people. Go public, start a campaign, there is 40,000 registered users on this forum.

I'm not sure of your wreck or what the states challenges are. But if it's the “Dutch wreck” Romans mentions. Then there is your proof. It's a Dutch cargo ship that the Spanish stole. Spain has no claim on the ship.

Call for a rally and letters, there is enough guys on this forum that will support you. Move the politicians and the laws will move. Politicians are easily moved by voters. Get a few news cameras involved and you'll be surprised how fast government works.

Keep the legal action going, but don't stop there. Fight for it like you are fighting for life. It' been 27 years since you saw the cannons, that's 27 years of your life. Plus the next 10 to 20 in court.

Lets us know what we can do. :icon_thumleft:
 

David you are fighting not just for yourself but for the entire Florida treasure hunting community. What can we do to help?
 

David, thanks for the efforts you have put forth in your fight against the State of Florida on your site. If there is anything I can do, let me know. As said by others you are fighting for everyones rights! Thank You!

Pete Rosario
 

Thank you everyone for the support. Tom, if you remember correctly our meeting in Ponte Vedra was formed due to our coalition of salvors that were not going to sit back and let the BHR or the state make rule changes regarding salvage without the proper notice and input from salvors.
Since then the Secretary of State deemed the BHR was not following proper rule change protocol and the subsequent rule changes included legitimate input from our group and the HSSPC (which most of us are members) formed by the Fisher family. These rules I can live with.
What has happened with our salvage groups now and beginning with the Tigershores project is the BHR turned to the ACOE and the NMF to not allow salvage within 400 feet of a worm rock reef. The bad news is most of Florida is bordered by a worm rock reef. I challenged the ACOE with this restrictions. My group was told they would not allow my salvage operation within the 400 foot buffer. At the same time they were sucking sand and blowing sand everywhere off Martin County to renourish the beaches within a mile of my site.
I eventually found a copy of the ACOE re-nourishment project permits and the ACOE scientific review (Benthic Survey) for the permits. The Army Corps scientists performing the benthic survey state the worm rock reefs are not impacted at all by overburden since the dynamics of the surf causes constant smothering of reef along Florida's coast. I presented this data to the Jacksonville office of the ACOE and the answer was "We still can't remove your buffer but you can file an appeal but we still will not remove the buffer".
I believe my eloquent speech in Ponte Vedra may have made me the target. Now I hear since the restriction worked on halting my work, now the ACOE is attacking all other salvage groups such as Jupiter and the like.
We all know most of the worm rock reef has been dead along the cost for years due to the State's lack of attention and now they are using it as a roadblock against our tax paying industry.
The reef has collected alot of the loose shipwreck material from our wreck sites and our industry uses strict controlled devices to uncover (and possibly revive) these reefs. State and local municipalities having been renourishing beaches and covering these reefs for decades to keep their tourist dollars flowing but will stop at no cost in keeping us from our work. The industry as a whole needs the support of this website since most wrecksites have been found along these reefs.
The ACOE and NMF in Charleston say the work cannot be done by live worm rock reef but will not tell you where the live reef is (No one from a state agency has ever been to my site accept the local agent from the ACOE, who the Jacksonville office belittled over the phone for not knowing how to do her job). I respect her for at least coming and diving the Tigershores site for herself.
So, my hands are tied, do you take the chance and let them file charges against you for working within the 400 foot border. All exploration and salvage permits until mine given by the BHR, ACOE, DEP and NMF allowed a 50' border. Now they have us against the ropes. The Polly-L cannot touch my site without being within the 400' border so they have dropped back until I can litigate this issue.
We did organize a big group in Ponte Vedra and we did have a major impact on the rule changes. but I believe the BHR has only one goal in mind using the tax dollars we provide to shut down our industry. Can we organize again to fight a silent dragon? Maybe. I'm all in.......Dave Jordan, Tigershores.
 

Dave, what is the ACOE or AOCE (you spelled it both ways)?
 

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