1715 fleet pop quiz

[RELICDUDE07]

Where did the treasure go for 4 years?so many indians in that area,im sure they were on site in a day or so just looking at all the destruction .

 

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[rgecy]

The salvage was very difficult, even with the so called experts they brought in. You can imagine how spread out the operation must have been. The wreck occured at the end of what we consider the diving season due to poor visbility that generally comes in around Aug. Not to mention how much the hurricane would have churned up the waters. Then they ave the winter storms and winds to contend with as well. By the next season, I am sure a lot was covered over.

It must have been hell to get anything done under those circumstances much less have to live through it.

 

[Darren in NC]

I would be curious as to why some believe the Cabin wreck is the "Regla" and Corrigans is the "San Roman" and vica-versa. Many hold to the former and Weller believed it was the latter. I'm just curious as to the basis of opinions. I began believing most of the references until I studied Jack Haskin's documentation. Now I'm more in line with Frogfoot's belief. Anyone else have an angle on it?

 

[Chagy]

Chagy, you are absolutely correct, my bad concerning the La Olandesa aka San Miguel. I just simply listed all five missing ships. However, I do think that the Survivor of the Maria Galante could have made the walk down the beach to the survivor camp in a couple of days from the Melbourne Beach wreck. So, in my humble opinion, the Melbourne Beach wreck could still be the Maria Galante, El Senor San Miguel, or the El Cievro aka La Galleria, or for that matter it could very well turn out to be none of them at all. We wont know for sure until Rex and his boys all settle there little dispute, and start recovering evidence to prove as definitively as possible the origins of there find. Time will tell.

Wreckdiver1715,

I concur 100%

 

[mad4wrecks]

Darren wrote: I would be curious as to why some believe the Cabin wreck is the "Regla" and Corrigans is the "San Roman" and vica-versa. Many hold to the former and Weller believed it was the latter. I'm just curious as to the basis of opinions. I began believing most of the references until I studied Jack Haskin's documentation. Now I'm more in line with Frogfoot's belief. Anyone else have an angle on it?

Darren, you sort of answered your own question. The reason there are varying opinions as to the identity of those two wrecks (which again, have never been positively identified) is because people are sheep, and tend to believe what they read, without doing their own research. When Bob Marx was the historian for Real Eight, he wrote ( and still believes) that the Cabin wreck was the capitana. Many just took his word on that. Bob Weller was one of those guys and thus wrote the same thing in his first edition of Sunken Treasure on Florida Reefs. With additional research, Weller flip-flopped his opinion (with supporting documentation) by the time the second edition came out, that the Cabin wreck was the site of Ubilla's almiranta and that the capitana was at the Corrigan's site.

 

[Darren in NC]

Actually, you answered the question a bit more clearly. It basically sounds like the salvager is either buying into Marx's, Haskin's, or Lyon's interpretation of data (did Eugene Lyons have any translations?). Although, unless I'm missing something, Salmon makes it plain that his wreck (almiranta, San Roman) was north of the capitana, Regla. I'm not sure where Marx's belief originates unless it was assumed by the Real 8 Co. and was passed down unchallenged.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Early on, Dr. Kip Kelso and Kip Wagner translated some of the documents themselves, from microfilm sent to them from the archives in Seville. Later, Nancy Ferris did much of the archival translations for Real Eight, and then Marx came in around 1968 as company historian.

 

[Chagy]

Darren wrote: I would be curious as to why some believe the Cabin wreck is the "Regla" and Corrigans is the "San Roman" and vica-versa. Many hold to the former and Weller believed it was the latter. I'm just curious as to the basis of opinions. I began believing most of the references until I studied Jack Haskin's documentation. Now I'm more in line with Frogfoot's belief. Anyone else have an angle on it?

Darren, you sort of answered your own question. The reason there are varying opinions as to the identity of those two wrecks (which again, have never been positively identified) is because people are sheep, and tend to believe what they read, without doing their own research. When Bob Marx was the historian for Real Eight, he wrote ( and still believes) that the Cabin wreck was the capitana. Many just took his word on that. Bob Weller was one of those guys and thus wrote the same thing in his first edition of Sunken Treasure on Florida Reefs. With additional research, Weller flip-flopped his opinion (with supporting documentation) by the time the second edition came out, that the Cabin wreck was the site of Ubilla's almiranta and that the capitana was at the Corrigan's site.

Darren,

We have had this discussion in the past many times...Even Tom can keep track of all the research and we all know how he does his research........

Sorry Tom its Thursday night...

 

[ivan salis]

yes most folks look at the transcripts made by the above stated folks -- and its amazing good for the most part ,I must say .--

the only major disagreement I have is when some folks thought that the amelia island wreck was a "missing" original 1715 fleet vessel. ---

govenor spotswood's letter of Oct 24th of 1715 clearly states its not, and lays out in detail what it "actually" was . ---a barcalonga (60 ft single mast ) recovery vessel sent from havana to recover VIP'S and treasure from the 1715 fleet wreck sites -- that later on wrecked --about 40 miles north of st augustine.(thus while not a original 1715 fleet vessel she would have 1715 fleet treasure aboard her --nice prime bits --of choice vip type goods)---- ( by the way ---spotswood had a great spy / intell network -- note he set Lt Maynard onto Blackbeard 's trail no easy task)

 

[Darren in NC]

Love those pics of sleep4wrecks!

We have had this discussion in the past many times

Yes, of course we have had these talks. But the point was to see what others might be thinking and see if there was any angle that we may haven't thought of yet.

 

[Chagy]

govenor spotswood's letter of Oct 24th of 1715 clearly states its not, and lays out in detail what it "actually" was . ---a barcalonga (60 ft single mast ) recovery vessel sent from havana to recover VIP'S and treasure from the 1715 fleet wreck sites -- that later on wrecked --about 40 miles north of st augustine.(thus while not a original 1715 fleet vessel she would have 1715 fleet treasure aboard her --nice prime bits --of choice vip type goods)---- ( by the way ---spotswood had a great spy / intell network -- note he set Lt Maynard onto Blackbeard 's trail no easy task)

Yes its been well know about this wreck....I still remember when Mad4wrecks aka sleep4wrecks first posted this information.......

 

[mad4wrecks]

I get exhausted trying to pronounce all those big words in the books. I can't wait for a 1715 pop-up book to come out.

 

[diverlynn]

Hey Madman, we have the same job!!

DL

 

[ivan salis]

the reason I speak of the amelia island wreck info is simple --even though its clear what its saying , it was misread , often times misread things get passed on once in print -- thus the error gets repeated -- thats why you need to look at "source" material for yourself to see if you get the same "read".

spotswoods info combined with fullers map is very interesting no?

spotswood report was quite detailed * --in the first part of the PS it said of the spanish "plate" 1715 fleet of 11 sails (correct vessel count) are except one* (so 10 of the 11 vessels ) are wrecked to the south of st augustine --(thus one is even with or above st augustine ? or is it just unaccounted for?) note salmon noted wreckage on the coast north of st augustine, it seems spotswood was also aware of this. --

( hum I wonder should this be properly read (coast , north of st augustine ) or north coast, of st augustine --given the translation of spanish to english-- -- the red house in english is "la casa rojo" the house red in spanish) .-- the spanish speak of the main item then the modifier -- the "house" (the main thing ) is red (modifier--what about the house) ---- ie the coast (major item) -north (modifier)-- would be in english north coast of st augustine ----- if straight translated by a english speaker --- coast , north of st augustine --- without taking in the translation factor into account , the mistake is easy one to make. --- (so when reading spanish one must "think" in spanish as well-- not just do a word switch from spanish to english and simply try reading it .)-- ivan

spotswood letter was dated 10/24/1715 --casa torres (govenor of cuba) letter to the viceroy of mexico of about a week earlier stated "according to reports gotten from st augustine" ---15 leagues (39 miles at 2.6 miles per league (spanish league) to the leeward (north)of this port (st augustine were the report came from) wreckage was found on the coast. --- so the spanish report say's 39 and the english report about 40 miles --both reports would place it in the nassua sound area--- the english report is much more detailed as to exactly what it is however. thus they jive.

 

[billinstuart]

Gotta question. The reference to "St. Lucies Inlet", that is meant to be the Ft. Pierce inlet in St. Lucie county, not St. Lucie inlet (man-made) in Stuart?

The natural inlet in St. Lucie county in 1715 was several miles north of the present day (also) man-made inlet, near the SEAL museum.

 

[Darren in NC]

No, we are referring to the area once known as Gilbert's Bar. The House of Refuge museum is still there. St. Lucie's inlet has moved several times over the years. Bernard Romans noted the Bleech Yard there.

 

[Chagy]

Hello billinstuart,

The inlet has always been there it would open and close on its own and then it was permanently open by man

 

[Chagy]

Sebastian Sam,

We don’t know each other yet!!! only through this thread........ But I really appreciate your participation and the knowledge you have brought to the thread.

I have to agree with you on the Grifon, But it still amazes me the fact that no one has done any research on the testimony of the Capt. of the Grifon on its arrival to France. To see if they can get any additional information on the vessels that wrecked further north..... I guess we have to give John a call....

About the amount of vessels in the fleet....Let me throw some wood in the burner!!!!! And I will agree that as far as we know and its well documented there were 12 vessels including the Grifon....

BUT its also well know that there is very little information on Ubilla’s small frigatilla including its name.
I still wonder where the name of Maria Galante came from? All the documents I have seen refer to this vessel as Ubilla’s small frigatilla or private frigatilla......

Obviously very little is documented of this vessel because it was Ubilla’s private vessel and not part of the fleet.....Could it have been possible that some one else also had a one or more private vessel (s) traveling with the fleet?

 

[ivan salis]

chagy, from what I understand all the the info on the maria galante is in cuban archives , thus not easily gotten to these days.
pre castro -- the records could be easily gotten to. theres lots of info waiting down there to be read.

as per the custom of the day , once Ubilla got her , she was "renamed" --another "neustra senora de la regala" was added to the fleet *

oh capt D'Aire and the Griffon arrived in Brest , France August 31st, 1715 since his vessel was much lighter and faster than the fleet vessels that he was "forced" to sail with(the spanish would not let him sail out before the fleet left for fear of information leaks to pirates on the fleet -- so it was sail with the fleet or wait 2 weeks afterward to leave ) given those choices D'Aire took sail with the fleet --however as soon as D'Aire could get away from the slow moving over loaded fleet he did -- basically puthe knew nothing of what occured with / to the fleet since he was in effect "fleeing" away from them.

 

[SebastianSam]

Thank you for the kind words Chagy.

As you can see from my avatar, I am a bit "old school." Most of my work on the 1715 fleet ended by the early 1990's, when I moved onto wrecks in the Caribbean.

I did study the 1715 religiously for over 20 years though and I still find this thread quite interesting. I only reply when I think I might have something new to add to the discussion.

Regards, Sam