17 Tons of gold in New Mexico

[Peerless67]

I have been reading these post for days now. I really enjoy reading them, late some nights still reading. I have a problem with the last newspaper article. The previous post say the gold ingots weigh 33 kilos each, that is a little over 72.6 pounds each and now your post of the newspaper article say they robbed 1,100 bars from a wells fargo stagecoach. But isn't 1,100 bars each weighing 72.6 pounds each about 40 tons? Could a wells fargo wagon carry that much of a load? Keep posting I love reading but this just stood out and I thought I would say something.

Pancho Villa sent many different sized gold bars into the USA in exchange for weapons, ammo, horses and vehicles.
The 1100 bricks do not have to be 33kg ingots.
The point is Villa had access to large amounts of gold.

 

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[Peerless67]

I have been reading these post for days now. I really enjoy reading them, late some nights still reading. I have a problem with the last newspaper article. The previous post say the gold ingots weigh 33 kilos each, that is a little over 72.6 pounds each and now your post of the newspaper article say they robbed 1,100 bars from a wells fargo stagecoach. But isn't 1,100 bars each weighing 72.6 pounds each about 40 tons? Could a wells fargo wagon carry that much of a load? Keep posting I love reading but this just stood out and I thought I would say something.

And for anyone to think this was not for real, the three men who were investigated by the treasury department were also charged by Dist Atty Aaron Stovitz with Violation of the corporate securities code, grand theft, and conspiracy to commit grand theft.

 

[Peerless67]

HIO Peerless: you asked -->

A) Do you have or do you know where I can find evidence of Villa paying his troops with 60lb-70lb gold bars or jewel encrusted chalices or statues stolen from churches
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NO, in fact he used old copper boilers etc., for making his coinage and printed up his own paper currency which was to be accepted under the threat of death for refusal.
*************************************************************************************8

B) .Was the tank built inside the cockpit?
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Yes, the front cockpit.
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C) With that 100 gallon (700lbs) tank would you have been able to carry a passenger and 1 and a half tons of gold in that stearman, and get off the ground?

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Nope, no way
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D) Was that stearman capable of "gliding" at 25,000ft
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Certainly, IF somehow you could "GET it UP TO THAT ALTITUDE"
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Also I wonder about the logic of villa attacking the New Mexico small town for the money in it's "small bank", which would at most, only have a few thousand, possibly even $ 100,000 at the time. IF he had any money or valuables hidden. He would know that both the US and the Mexican gov't would try to hunt him, and the remains of his small band down. He must have been desperate. I will not buy the popular theory that he was irritated by a gun deal gone wrong.

Also his widow was destitute and had to receive a dole from the gov't.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Thankyou for confirming those answers for me RDT

On the subject of Columbus, it would better be investigated by a non American, as patriotism may take the place of realism. There is no solid evidence that Villa was even prestent at the raid on Columbus.
Further more purshings pursuit of Villa for 11 months? was fruitless and they failed to find Villa, even though they battled with the reminants of the "Colubumbus raiders"
There is also the fact that the part of columbus that was tourched by Villas men just happened to be the hotel owned by the guy who he had reportedly done the arms deal with (Sam Ravels).
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And this excerpt:

This particular Account was in a Collection of eyewitness accounts of the Mexican Revolution [1910-1920]. It was an account by a man who claimed to have been Woodrow Wilson's personal Liaison to Pancho Villa, from 1914 into 1916. He began his testimony, and in words to this effect, he stated:

" Pancho Villa did not attack the town of Columbus, New Mexico, on March 9, 1916, as is commonly believed. I happen to know this for a fact, because I was with Pancho Villa at the time and we were eight hundred miles away, in the mountains of Coahuila."

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Lets face it Villa could only just write his name, so who is writing his history? I dont know if he was at Columbus or not, I like everyone else am reliant on what has been writen since the events took place.
My own thought is that if he was present at columbus it was because he had been cornered by the new Mexican government (carranza) and was unable to move back in to mexico, he would also have felt betrayed by the Americans who had allowed troops to move though the USA to head him off.

Also worth noting is why is the raid on Columbus so important? there were 38 such raids across the boarder between July 1915 and June 1916. It was most likely just the excuse Wilson needed to go against his word and get involved in the Mexican war.

Alas we will never know 100%

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI: a bit of misc info. regarding written data. I was just checking on the Coahuila thingie, when I noticed the information that accompanied it. From the States official dept. regarding Mexican history.

Quote "Mexcico lost Texas in a war with the US The US and France blockaded the Mexican ports in order for the French to take over Mexico"

Wth this type of reporting from official sites, what can one expect from private 15 th hand data?


LUCK MY FRIENDS, GO GET YOURS.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Peerless67]

I have been reading these post for days now. I really enjoy reading them, late some nights still reading. I have a problem with the last newspaper article. The previous post say the gold ingots weigh 33 kilos each, that is a little over 72.6 pounds each and now your post of the newspaper article say they robbed 1,100 bars from a wells fargo stagecoach. But isn't 1,100 bars each weighing 72.6 pounds each about 40 tons? Could a wells fargo wagon carry that much of a load? Keep posting I love reading but this just stood out and I thought I would say something.

Pancho Villa sent many different sized gold bars into the USA in exchange for weapons, ammo, horses and vehicles.
The 1100 bricks do not have to be 33kg ingots.
The point is Villa had access to large amounts of gold.

Now you have me confused. You are saying these 1,100 bricks were sent into the US by Villa. The newspaper article says bandits believed to be Villa's men stole the gold from a Wells Fargo Stagecoach. So what size gold bricks would Wells Fargo be carrying around. Also I believe that "gold bricks" refer to gold bars about three inches wide and 8 inches long about the size of a gold brick, not a gold bar which can be any size down to finger bars.

No I am not saying these bricks were sent into the states, these bars could just as easily of been 1kg bars, It was simply another post that shows Villa had access to vast amounts of gold and other treasures, I have 100s of such articles.
They were supposed to have been stolen from Americans by Villas men, but there are 100s if not 1000s of reports of Villa stealing all kinds of treasures. It is only to show villa may have had a cache. I am making no claim except that I believe Villa did have a "treasure"

 

[Peerless67]

HI: a bit of misc info. regarding written data. I was just checking on the Coahuila thingie, when I noticed the information that accompanied it. From the States official dept. regarding Mexican history.

Quote "Mexcico lost Texas in a war with the US The US and France blockaded the Mexican ports in order for the French to take over Mexico"

Wth this type of reporting from official sites, what can one expect from private 15 th hand data?


LUCK MY FRIENDS, GO GET YOURS.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Exactly RDT, that is my point

 

[Peerless67]

And if Villas henchmen had such treasures as this to bury, then what may Villa have had?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Truth in reporting? Quien sabe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Peerless67]

Truth in reporting? Quien sabe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Sometimes, and sometimes not, the trick is to sort the truth from the fiction

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO This was my biggest problem in the quest for Tayopa. Unfortunately, with legends etc --------. sigh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Roadquest]

There was indeed a lot of misleading information intentionally put out
about this gold. Put that with information people have printed, reported etc.
thinking it to be correct, There is not a lack of material to research.
You do have to separate the truth from the misleading information.

Clayton...Roadquest

 

[Oroblanco]

Peerless wrote:

Lets face it Villa could only just write his name, so who is writing his history?

Hmm well believe it or not, Villa appeared in several films about himself, with Villa playing himself (1912, 1913 and 1914)!

His real name was Doroteo Arango Arámbula and he was quite successful as a military commander (except for the battle of Celaya ) BUT he was also a robber and could be quite cruel. He certainly is quite an historical character, whatever one thinks of him.
Oroblanco

 

[Peerless67]

Hi Oro, Villa is certainly a historical figure, personally I find him an interesting charactor. My posts, as I have explained above were only to show Villa had access to gold and may have had a cache.
I have also seen the Villa films you speak of, but he is hardly going to show himself in anything but a good light, is he?
The 17 tons story is to this day unsolved, why?. my belief is because those who have tried to solve the story have been led in the wrong direction, something which RDT should have a pretty good grasp on considering the Tayopa legend. I have only posted the Villa articles to show it is a possibility that the gold could have origins with Villa.
I only have factual evidence relating to the story (17 tons) that post dates January 1950. that evidence is mostly comprised of court documents and land leases, death records etc etc.
But evidence of the life of people who's names appeared in those documents can be traced back to the late 1800s, when researching you have to have something to research. And so I researched every little detail I was able to find. From those details I have a time line which shows some interseting "coincidences"

 

[Springfield]

Anecdotal accounts here in SW New Mexico indicate that Villa had extremely good connections with powerful sources within the US and his name is associated with at least one large gold cache allegedly located somewhere between Cookes Peak and Pinos Altos. I wish I could narrow this rumor more than I've been able to thus far. Whether these stories are true or relate to your research is anybody's guess.

 

[Roadquest]

Gary, I know you do believe gold is at your site, or that it was there. Do you think there was 17 tons of gold
brought to that site. Or was it a smaller amount. You have said you no longer care, or are concerned, or
something to that effect, of who brought the gold into the United States.
Do you know who owned the trucks that brought the gold in. And when it was brought in.
Was it all brought in at the same time, along the same route?

Clayton

 

[Peerless67]

Anecdotal accounts here in SW New Mexico indicate that Villa had extremely good connections with powerful sources within the US and his name is associated with at least one large gold cache allegedly located somewhere between Cookes Peak and Pinos Altos. I wish I could narrow this rumor more than I've been able to thus far. Whether these stories are true or relate to your research is anybody's guess.

Absolutely Springfield Villa did have powerful friends in the US, one of the reasons he felt so betrayed by the US allowing carranzas men to travel through the US. It is documented that Wilson himself would meet with Villas staff.
Remember also that Holmdahl had escaped several firing squads, including in Mexico, and always because of intevention by "powerful" US friends. I have only been able to post a fraction of what I uncovered for obvious reasons, and although I am unable to confirm that the account you mention is true, I would say it was extremely possible.

 

[Peerless67]

Gary, I know you do believe gold is at your site, or that it was there. Do you think there was 17 tons of gold
brought to that site. Or was it a smaller amount. You have said you no longer care, or are concerned, or
something to that effect, of who brought the gold into the United States.
Do you know who owned the trucks that brought the gold in. And when it was brought in.
Was it all brought in at the same time, along the same route?

Clayton

Clayton, "I" do believe the gold was/is at my site, but that is not proven either way as yet.

Was there 17 tons, well the answer to that is that there are several different accounts of the amount of gold bought into the states. I would answer this way, the escrow account was for $20,000,000 (fact) and it was set up in 1950 (fact) therefor if you use the 1950 gold price the figure would be 17.77 tons.

Its true to say that for the purpose of finding the gold I am not interested in who it belonged to, but for the sake of research and the legend it would be nice to know the whole truth. something worth keeping in mind is that you do not want some "long lost relative" of the original owner making claim to your 17 ton find should you make that find.

Who owned the trucks? I can not say for sure if trucks were used or who owned them, but, if we look at just a couple of possibilities. Luckey owned several large trucks, he also imported his cattle feed from Mexico!!!, Stewart who was questioned by the secret service owned an import/export business in Ca, Clews was a big shot for the department of motor vehicles in LA.... but there are several possibilities.

If the figure of 17 tons is correct it is unlikely that the gold was transported all at once, in the words of RDT "Quien sabe?"

 

[Roadquest]

Gary, If you or I, either one find the gold, and we make it public knowledge.
We will not get one cent of it. It will take years for all the claims to go through
the system.
Relatives or not, the goverment will claim it all. Just my thoughts on that.

If they may not have brought the gold in by trucks, What other method do you
think they used? While I believe my take on the gold is correct, I'm going over
the details on yours. It would be very important to nail down who sent the gold
to the U.S. And fingering out the route they used, if it was brought in by road.

Was the "disposit" area prepared before they brought it there? How many people
were there to help off load the gold. Everyone would have had to be a trusted
associate.
The real proof of who is right on where the gold is, will be the one who finds it.
And, will the one who finds it, let the public know........Who Knows.

Clayton

 

[Peerless67]

Gary, If you or I, either one find the gold, and we make it public knowledge.
We will not get one cent of it. It will take years for all the claims to go through
the system.
Relatives or not, the goverment will claim it all. Just my thoughts on that.

If they may not have brought the gold in by trucks, What other method do you
think they used? While I believe my take on the gold is correct, I'm going over
the details on yours. It would be very important to nail down who sent the gold
to the U.S. And fingering out the route they used, if it was brought in by road.

Was the "disposit" area prepared before they brought it there? How many people
were there to help off load the gold. Everyone would have had to be a trusted
associate.
The real proof of who is right on where the gold is, will be the one who finds it.
And, will the one who finds it, let the public know........Who Knows.

Clayton

Clayton, my theories on how they bought the gold into the US are just that, theories.
This is the problem, no one kept any writen record of what they were doing, like I have said my theories are the result of my own research. I could be completely wrong though.
You see, because all of this was done clandestinely you have to find the factual evidence and fill in the missing parts, I am not sure if the original deposit site was prepared before the gold was delivered, but common sense tells me it would have been. Same with the amount of people at the site, I would guess it was kept to a minimum for obvious reasons. We can only speculate on those questions. Let me give you an example of what I mean, I have evidence that George Luckey was importing feed grain in from Mexico, he did this in his own trucks, but any ledgers that exist today would only show he imported feed grain because he would not have admitted to smuggling gold over the boarder. (that is NOT my theory on how it happened but is an example of the problem)
As for other possibilities, well there are a few, trucks, pick ups, buses, horse drawn vehicles, "army vehichles" and of course the air plane, we may never know for certain. problem with the plane story as writen is that the figures quoted were not possible and if you do the math you will see it would have taken many more journeys in a stearman or cessna that was built circa 1933, than is quoted in any of those stories.
I do not believe you will finger who sent the gold to the US, but I wish you luck in that.
I believe its also possible the gold was moved sometime other than the 1930s, Ive tried not to hang my self up on the 1933 date.
As for a possible route, my theory I would rather keep to myself for now in the geographic sense, but where were all these men from? and armed with that knowledge why would they be headed to the 4 corners area of NM?

Would you be willing to post how you believe the gold was moved? I would be interested to hear.

I can not argue with your last statement "The real proof of who is right on where the gold is, will be the one who finds it." best of luck to all of us who are looking, no matter where that may be.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: Join forces, resourses, and stories, then split up the profits betweeen both of you, ORO and myself

(well if one doen't try, one cannot expect to gain no?) sgh


Don Jose de La Mancha