17 Tons of gold in New Mexico

[Roadquest]

I'm not asking for information on Doc Noss gold. I know the stories.
Its interesting thats it conected to the 17 tons of gold in New Mexico.
Or at your location.

 

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[Peerless67]

I'm not asking for information on Doc Noss gold. I know the stories.
Its interesting thats it conected to the 17 tons of gold in New Mexico.
Or at your location.

Well I dont know that for sure, but it is not unreasonable to think that this is possible, Noss was aquainted with Holmdahl ( I posted an article )
Holmdahl was searching from 1926 to about 1937 for Villas loot.
Villas loot consisted of jewels, gold bars, gold coin, church artifacts, wells fargo boxes which he had recieved gold coins in US$, and any number of things he stole from his victims.
If holmdahl had an agreement with Noss and had paid him for his part in jewels, armour, artifacts etc etc then it would not be unreasonable for him to have invented a story of how he came by them.
Soon as Noss gets himself shot the Californians are involved, mostly gold men, and aquaintances of Holmdahl.
So if Holmdahl located the loot, involved Noss, prior to or about 1937 and then involved the Californians after Noss death in 49 it ties up nicely.
Of course this is just my speculation, with a little evidence to support the idea, who knows maybe im a mile of base or maybe not.
Its possible, not a fact but possible.

And since all my players were real living people it is deffinately more possible than a trabuco, borega, sepulveda, elliott, morado plot.

 

[Peerless67]

Terazzas never trusted banks, wonder where he stored "trucks" yes plural of "truck", loads of gold and silver after he hastened over the boarder with them.
Also suprising how easily one could cross the boarder in a time of such unrest between Mexico and the US, so easily infact it makes you wonder how easy it may have been if someone had found Villas loot, especially if they had friends in high places.

 

[Peerless67]

Good morning Peerless: You posted -->

My own theory is that Emil Holmdahl had located the hidden loot of Pancho Villa.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps, but apparently Pancho never had any. He was on a dole after the rev., and was given contracts for meat by the gov't. . His widow, Luz, was also on a dole from the gov't since she was destitute.

If he had had access to even a small part of this, he logically, would never have made his infamous raid on the Bank in Columbus, Nm., US, for operating funds.

I knew a former Capt of Pancho's that did hide enough weapons and explosives for a company plus of men in a cave on the Verde river for Pancho, then closed it up. The men were then dispersed.

I asked him why they were allowed to go free since they would sooner or later talk. The usual tech. was to eliminate them after. .He laughed, then said "Yes, Pancho knew this and counted on it, and their loyalty, to not to reveal where the cave was, but that it existed.

He told me that if the gov't knew that he had these weapons hidden, that they would listen to him, but without them, he would be ignored."

On the whole, I frankly do not believe that our infamous Pancho contributed in any way to the 17 tons of Gold.

Even today there are many searching for "the hidden gold" of Pancho in various parts of Mexico, none have had any success as far as I can find out..

Don Jose de La Mancha

You see RDT you could be right, but you could also be wrong. I have shown but a few examples of villas access to large sums in gold, from the very many I have. I can not discount the fact he had access to wealth beyond imagination, and that there is a chance he had a cache, and that some of his "officers" would have had an idea about what it was and maybe even where it was.
In either event Holmdahl believed it existed and spent years in search of it.

 

[Roadquest]

Gary, In your post #221 Question four has puzzled me for some time. I have two names of Mexican
Nationals that are connected to the Trabuco gold or 17 tons of gold. Pre 50s I will not release the names, in that
I can"t produce written evident of their connections. I have something in my possession. That leads me to
believe they were connected.
You have differant theories of who brought the gold to your site.
I only have two on who brought it to mine.
You have differant theories of how the gold was transported to your site.
I only have two on how it was transported to my site.
You have an abundances of information. But, I'm beginning to think we are talking about two differant
" treasures "

Clayton

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good evening Peerless: General evidence is that while he had access to large amounts of loot, but not 17 tons, it is highly unlikely that he buried or hid much of it. Most went for arms and equipment as well as payoffs. In any event, it is doubtful that he could have hid much and kept the location quiet, unless he had the men killed, which he was quite capable of doing.

In the end he was on a gov't dole and given the meat contract for the new Mexican army through his meat business in Chihuahua --some of Terraza's cattle?. it is presumed that if he had anything buried,that he would have recovered it during this phase of his life, or perhaps, told his wife about it or even it's location. As your article said, his daughter wished that she had some of the loot that her father was supposed to have buried, but that she had no knowledge of any.

I agree, burying a treasure and keeping it secret as apposed to burying arms etc., and wishing that the knowledge of them will be known, but not the location, are diametrically opposed thingies.

If you dig into Pancho's life, you will find that prior to the revelution he was an excllent "pusher" on the mule trains, and could be counted on to keep his word and time of delivery, but as time and the revolution went on

In the end who knows? I have seen history rewritten many time contrary to the truth, Heck even ORO could be made into a knowledgeable saint, but certainly not Peerless or roadquest, sheesh, after all. . heheheh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

P.S. Luck on your quest gentlemen.

 

[Roadquest]

My good Friend Don Jose De La Mancha, I wanted to be a knowledgeable saint.
Instead I turned into what some of my friends call an eccentric treasure hunter

I think a lot of light could be shead on the Pancho Villa theories. Which is not my
way of seeing this thing go down. This is something I have not said a lot about.
There is a purported personal diary of Alberto Terraza?, or so I am told from a
source I have in Parral Mexico. Many answers could be found in this diary related
to Terraza? Pancho Villa and so on.
My humble research skills could not turn it up. Perhaps, if it is out there, some one
can find it, and see what answers it holds.

Peace my good friend, And remember, always keep a rabbit......Clayton

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote:

Heck even ORO could be made into a knowledgeable saint, but certainly not Peerless or roadquest, sheesh, after all.

What!!?!!!? That would be a blasphemous and terrible bit of heresy! Perish the thought amigo! I would sooner accept a revision of history that would paint Peerless, Roadquest, or even Don Jose de la Mancha as a knowledgeable saint, than see my own efforts to dim the light of knowledge and break every Commandment be so besmirched!

Sorry for the rant there amigos, just that Don Jose has gone TOO FAR this time - heck I may even have to sand down a few pine boards to make a Quija board so as to be able to watch him more closely in the future!

Thanks for posting those clippings too!
Oroblanco

 

[Peerless67]

Gary, In your post #221 Question four has puzzled me for some time. I have two names of Mexican
Nationals that are connected to the Trabuco gold or 17 tons of gold. Pre 50s I will not release the names, in that
I can"t produce written evident of their connections. I have something in my possession. That leads me to
believe they were connected.
You have differant theories of who brought the gold to your site.
I only have two on who brought it to mine.
You have differant theories of how the gold was transported to your site.
I only have two on how it was transported to my site.
You have an abundances of information. But, I'm beginning to think we are talking about two differant
" treasures "

Clayton

Clayton there could be a very real chance we are dealing with 2 different treasures. I am only dealing with the treasure that Hougen was trying to sell to the US government in 1950, he had set up an escrow account at the First National bank in Ontario California where Bernard G Klepper was the escrow officer and vice president.
He had set the account up after advice from Prentiss Moore,whom he had communicated through Bruce Clews.
They had on 2 occasions tried to sell the gold to the US treasury, but failed to turn up on both occasions at the San Francisco mint as advised. The reason they never turned up is that the government had not deposited the $20,000,000 into the escrow account. The group knew the government were going to shaft them so they left the gold where it was. This in turn led to the Treasury department handing the case to the federal grand jury, and the secret service were already involved and had been asking questions.
This made the group lay low for a while.

To understand the story I have been researching you have to really ignore everything prior to 1950.
Everything I have stated that is post 1950 is 100% based in fact.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for my own research I set out to find out where the gold MAY have come from that Hougen was trying to sell the treasury in 1950.
So I looked at possibilities, one of the possibilities is that Emil Holmdahl who was actively seeking Villas loot, had indeed found it.
Emil Holmdahl was questioned by the secret service in 1951 about the 17 tons ($20 million) of gold.
Emil Holmdahl was an aquaintence of Noss.
Noss, it is claimed had found church artifacts, gold coin, gold bars, jewels, armour, wells fargo boxes, colonial manuscripts.
BUT, where are all these reported finds of Noss well we have seen armour, jewels, and artifacts but the rest?
Villa had stolen such things, there are 100s of reports of him doing so.
No gold has been recovered from the Noss site at VP. Why

My claim is not that the 17tons is Noss's find, my thought is that Noss and Holmdahl had an arrangement, Noss was paid for his "help" in jewels, artifacts, etc etc.
Noss could not claim he had found these things he had been paid with near the site the gold had been buried.
So he used the story of a hunting trip to VP to explain where he had come by these things, well away from the gold deposit site.
Holmdahl was also an aquaintence of Hougen and Nobel, who were both gold mine owners/engineers.
They would dispose of the gold but not jewels, church artifacts, documents, armour. (this is what Noss had)
Noss gets shot in 49 and so we will never know for sure how he came by the stuff he had.

Now to understand how Villa MAY have created a stash, anyone who believes Villa did not have access to large quantities of gold ingots needs to do some research.
Yes I am sure he used some of the 100s of millions he stole to pay troops and for weapons and ammo, infact it is documented that he did.
But think about this, who would he have paid with a 60lb bar of gold? who would he have paid with jewel incrusted chalices? who would he have paid with armour? who would he have paid with colonial documents?

I can just see it, a hot friday afternoon in Mexico during the revolution.

Pancho Villa: "hey my little peon fighter here is your pay"

Pancho's Peon fighter: " gracias amigo thankyou for the 60lb gold bar it will feed my family for many centuries to come"

Pancho Villa: "you are welcome my little peon fighter, same time next week I will have another for you"

Cmon get realistic Villa never paid his peons with gold ingots, he had his own money printed "constitutionalist currency" and had no need to pay his troops in gold or jewels.
Do you actually know how much was paid to Villa in US gold coin? and that it was shipped to him in wells fargo boxes?
Odo B stade had bought 14 million dollars worth of bullion into the states on Villas behalf.
Emil Holmdahl had bought Millions of dollars worth into the states on Villas behalf.
Villa had stolen 100s of millions of dollars of gold from various sources in Mexico.
I have found documentation that he took over 10 million from Terrazas alone. Terrazas was said to be worth some $200,000,000 in gold.
Villa had treasure, did he cache some of it over the years? Holmdahl believed so, and spent years searching, but then he stops his search, and low and behold, he is an assosiate of people trying to sell gold to the US.
Maybe coincidence, maybe not.
Of course that is just another theory, I have several, but that one is my favourite as it concerns the people who were trying to sell gold to the US in 1950. and how they may have come by the gold.

Like I said its all pretty irrelevent now, the group were selling $20,000,000 (17.7 tons) of gold to the US in 1950, they never did the deal, I have a nice site, one that I know 100% was leased by the group from a land owner, on that land there is a runway. where BUD Fountain used to land his stearman biplane (450hp)
I have enough evidence to support that this is the land where the gold was moved to and stored, I have no idea if it is still there, but I am convinced it was.

Maybe there are 2 stories that became intertwined but all the "real people" from the published 17 tons story appear in my version, with legal documentation to prove it. I have no idea why the Mexican names were added, other than a theory which seems reasonable, and that is that the names were added to get the feds off the scent.

But just remember this Villa was a real person, so was Noss, Holmdahl, Hougen, Nobel, Clews, Stewart, Luckey, Moore, Klepper, Carli, McEachen, Fountain and 4 other Californian business men and 1 land owner who's names I will keep private were real. The court papers are real, the subpeonas are real, the archived documents relating to the story are real, the land lease documents are real.

 

[Peerless67]

RDT mi amigo I have a few questions for you.

Do you have or do you know where I can find evidence of Villa paying his troops with 60lb-70lb gold bars or jewel encrusted chalices or statues stolen from churches?

And I know you once piloted stearman biplanes, you have quoted that you have even carried 100 gallons of fuel (700lbs) in one.

Was the tank built inside the cockpit?

With that 100 gallon (700lbs) tank would you have been able to carry a passenger and 1 and a half tons of gold in that stearman, and get off the ground?

Was that stearman capable of "gliding" at 25,000ft?

Thankyou Peerless

 

[Peerless67]

Gary, In your post #221 Question four has puzzled me for some time. I have two names of Mexican
Nationals that are connected to the Trabuco gold or 17 tons of gold. Pre 50s I will not release the names, in that
I can"t produce written evident of their connections. I have something in my possession. That leads me to
believe they were connected.


Clayton

Clayton, I do not wish to know the names of the Mexicans, you should keep that private.
However can you confirm that these names are on a legal document? for example, a court record, subpeona, land lease, affidavit?
And if so are you claiming that document predates 1950?

Thankyou Gary

 

[Peerless67]

My good Friend Don Jose De La Mancha, I wanted to be a knowledgeable saint.
Instead I turned into what some of my friends call an eccentric treasure hunter

I think a lot of light could be shead on the Pancho Villa theories. Which is not my
way of seeing this thing go down. This is something I have not said a lot about.
There is a purported personal diary of Alberto Terraza?, or so I am told from a
source I have in Parral Mexico. Many answers could be found in this diary related
to Terraza? Pancho Villa and so on.
My humble research skills could not turn it up. Perhaps, if it is out there, some one
can find it, and see what answers it holds.

Peace my good friend, And remember, always keep a rabbit......Clayton

Clayton, I once heard a story that Alberto Terrazas had a Villa map, I believe based on that some searchers had spent some time on land where Alberto had raced his horses. I have never heard the personal diary story except what you told me.
I will try and see if I can find out if such a diary exists, if I am able to find out about it I will let you know what I find out.

I am a little confused though, are you now saying that it is possible that this could be something to do with Villa and his loot ?

PS: I emailed you some Alberto Terrazas articles

 

[Peerless67]

You have differant theories of who brought the gold to your site.
I only have two on who brought it to mine.
You have differant theories of how the gold was transported to your site.
I only have two on how it was transported to my site.
You have an abundances of information. But, I'm beginning to think we are talking about two differant
" treasures "

Clayton

Clayton I only have 2 theories as to who may have bought the gold to my site, but there are other possiblities.

I only have 1 as to how it was transported, and that was by road, however it is possible that it was then moved from one site to my site by air. I have not been able to confirm that, but other than as a form of transport to and from the site, there appears no good reason as to why Bud Fountain would be landing his stearman biplane at my site, and since I know he did for sure, I have drawn my own conclussions.

If we are talking about 2 different treasures, then we need to look at the fact that the people who were selling "my" gold, are the same people who were selling "yours". Unless I am wrong and you dont believe that Hougen and the rest of the group were selling "yours" then we would almost certainly be talking about 2 different treasures.

 

[Roadquest]

Gary, In your post #221 Question four has puzzled me for some time. I have two names of Mexican
Nationals that are connected to the Trabuco gold or 17 tons of gold. Pre 50s I will not release the names, in that
I can"t produce written evident of their connections. I have something in my possession. That leads me to
believe they were connected.


Clayton

Clayton, I do not wish to know the names of the Mexicans, you should keep that private.
However can you confirm that these names are on a legal document? for example, a court record, subpeona, land lease, affidavit?
And if so are you claiming that document predates 1950?

Thankyou Gary

Gary, As I said, I don't have written evident, I have enough circumstantial evident that leads me to believe
the names are correct, and predate 1950; This is something I use in my personal research. I will not expand
on it. I'm not asking you to think the information I have on this is correct. But the names have proven to be of interest.

Clayton












You are welcome Clayton

 

[Roadquest]

You have differant theories of who brought the gold to your site.
I only have two on who brought it to mine.
You have differant theories of how the gold was transported to your site.
I only have two on how it was transported to my site.
You have an abundances of information. But, I'm beginning to think we are talking about two differant
" treasures "

Clayton

Clayton I only have 2 theories as to who may have bought the gold to my site, but there are other possiblities.

I only have 1 as to how it was transported, and that was by road, however it is possible that it was then moved from one site to my site by air. I have not been able to confirm that, but other than as a form of transport to and from the site, there appears no good reason as to why Bud Fountain would be landing his stearman biplane at my site, and since I know he did for sure, I have drawn my own conclussions.

If we are talking about 2 different treasures, then we need to look at the fact that the people who were selling "my" gold, are the same people who were selling "yours". Unless I am wrong and you dont believe that Hougen and the rest of the group were selling "yours" then we would almost certainly be talking about 2 different treasures.

Gary, Your thought on my beliefs of who was selling "my" gold is not 'totally" correct.

 

[Roadquest]

My good Friend Don Jose De La Mancha, I wanted to be a knowledgeable saint.
Instead I turned into what some of my friends call an eccentric treasure hunter

I think a lot of light could be shead on the Pancho Villa theories. Which is not my
way of seeing this thing go down. This is something I have not said a lot about.
There is a purported personal diary of Alberto Terraza?, or so I am told from a
source I have in Parral Mexico. Many answers could be found in this diary related
to Terraza? Pancho Villa and so on.
My humble research skills could not turn it up. Perhaps, if it is out there, some one
can find it, and see what answers it holds.

Peace my good friend, And remember, always keep a rabbit......Clayton

Clayton, I once heard a story that Alberto Terrazas had a Villa map, I believe based on that some searchers had spent some time on land where Alberto had raced his horses. I have never heard the personal diary story except what you told me.
I will try and see if I can find out if such a diary exists, if I am able to find out about it I will let you know what I find out.

I am a little confused though, are you now saying that it is possible that this could be something to do with Villa and his loot ?

PS: I emailed you some Alberto Terrazas articles

Gary, I will contact my person in Mexico, and see if they can elaborate a little more on the diary.
What I was told, was it had information on the 17 tons of gold. I was thinking if Villa had something to
do with the gold, some info. would be there also.

I received the Alberto Terrazas articles. Thanks, it's an interesting read......Clayton

 

[Peerless67]

Clayton you said: "Gary, Your thought on my beliefs of who was selling "my" gold is not 'totally" correct."


Does that mean that Hougen was not selling the gold you are looking for? could you elaborate without giving details and names?

Thankyou Gary

 

[Peerless67]

My good Friend Don Jose De La Mancha, I wanted to be a knowledgeable saint.
Instead I turned into what some of my friends call an eccentric treasure hunter

I think a lot of light could be shead on the Pancho Villa theories. Which is not my
way of seeing this thing go down. This is something I have not said a lot about.
There is a purported personal diary of Alberto Terraza?, or so I am told from a
source I have in Parral Mexico. Many answers could be found in this diary related
to Terraza? Pancho Villa and so on.
My humble research skills could not turn it up. Perhaps, if it is out there, some one
can find it, and see what answers it holds.

Peace my good friend, And remember, always keep a rabbit......Clayton

I have been informed many of the Terrazas papers are here. CIDECH, Ciudad Chihuahua.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO Peerless: you asked -->

A) Do you have or do you know where I can find evidence of Villa paying his troops with 60lb-70lb gold bars or jewel encrusted chalices or statues stolen from churches
~~~~~~~~~~~

NO, in fact he used old copper boilers etc., for making his coinage and printed up his own paper currency which was to be accepted under the threat of death for refusal.
*************************************************************************************8

B) .Was the tank built inside the cockpit?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, the front cockpit.
**************************************************************************************

C) With that 100 gallon (700lbs) tank would you have been able to carry a passenger and 1 and a half tons of gold in that stearman, and get off the ground?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nope, no way
**************************************************************************************
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
D) Was that stearman capable of "gliding" at 25,000ft
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Certainly, IF somehow you could "GET it UP TO THAT ALTITUDE"
**************************************************************************************
Also I wonder about the logic of villa attacking the New Mexico small town for the money in it's "small bank", which would at most, only have a few thousand, possibly even $ 100,000 at the time. IF he had any money or valuables hidden. He would know that both the US and the Mexican gov't would try to hunt him, and the remains of his small band down. He must have been desperate. I will not buy the popular theory that he was irritated by a gun deal gone wrong.

Also his widow was destitute and had to receive a dole from the gov't.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Roadquest]

Clayton you said: "Gary, Your thought on my beliefs of who was selling "my" gold is not 'totally" correct."


Does that mean that Hougen was not selling the gold you are looking for? could you elaborate without giving details and names?

Thankyou Gary

Gary, You said: "Unless I am wrong, and you don't believe that Hougen and the rest of the group
were selling yours" "gold".

The most I will say on that is you are not "totally" correct with that statement.
And I only give this information, because you have shared some of your information.
And, we both are walking a fine line, to avoid giving away critical information.
I am looking for the "17 tons of gold in New Mexico" I do have what I believe to be a creatable
area that I well be working, I have a landing site for a plane. I have been to this area. I have topo
and satellite imagines of the entire area..I have a truck route

The fact of the matter is, if I were working this from your prospective And obtained
the information you have. With the time you have been working on this project. Then I would search
the site that you are going to search also.

Some of our information is basically the same, It's just that we got it from differant source's.
Some is close, but some of the details are not the same. I think I just repeated myself
My project site is not in the giving area in New Mexico that everyone is lead to believe.
It is a practical site area that I will search.

These gold bars were cast at 33 kilos if it all were placed in one area, it would be equal to about
1 cubic yard. Maybe a little less. But allowing for some space between the bars it would probaby
come out to 1 cu. y. or about 25 cu feet.

Clayton