17 Tons of gold in New Mexico

HIO Peerless, Having flown the Stearman in crop spraying I know a bit about I took my USAF basic in the At-6 but later was involved in spraying.with the Stearman. We used the P&W 985 engine in the Stearman. and carried a payload of some 100 gallons of Diesel in the front cockpit. (this has been corrected from 200 to 100 gallons)

If it was used in this operation, it would be because it would not present an unusual appearance or attract too much attention for a few flights.

Since the members of this plot (?) obviously had lots of capital, I question why they used a Stearman when other aircraft with much larger payloads were available, unless it was for the above reason...

It is a fascinating and plausible story.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Hey RDT, yes I recall a picture you once posted where you had crashed the stearman, them dang mountains always getting in the way ha. :tongue3:
The tellings of the story claim the stearman was used, they also claim the year was 1933.
The stearman company had only reopened in 1933 following closure for a couple of years, would the more powerful engine and larger fuel tanks have been availiable on a pre 1933 plane? and is it likely that a crop sprayer would have had these features fitted?:icon_scratch:
The stearman could have made the journey from Juarez to the 4 corners area non stop, however the story also claims that the flights were made from Chihuahua, that being the case it would require 3 refuels for each round trip. you must also concede that by increasing the take off weight of the p[lane that you also decrease the payload. And do you believe that the stearman or the cesna were capable of "gliding over the site at 25,000 ft?
I would be interested to find any information on pre 1933 stearmans fitted with the 440hp engine and larger/extra fuel tanks. I would be greatful if you could point me in the direction of any such information if you have it. Thankyou Gary
 

Frederick Brant Rentschler developed the first Pratt & Whitney in 1925.
It would reach 425 horsepower. Rentschler had in mind, an engine in the
range of 400 to 500 horsepower.
He was proposing a power to weight ratio unheard of at the time.

By 1926 Pratt & Whitney were developing an engine rated at 525 horsepower.
So, the engines were available for pre 1932 Stearmans.

Roadquest
 

Roadquest said:
Frederick Brant Rentschler developed the first Pratt & Whitney in 1925.
It would reach 425 horsepower. Rentschler had in mind, an engine in the
range of 400 to 500 horsepower.
He was proposing a power to weight ratio unheard of at the time.

By 1926 Pratt & Whitney were developing an engine rated at 525 horsepower.
So, the engines were available for pre 1932 Stearmans.

Roadquest
Click to expand...


That still does not show an example of such an aircraft.


Qoute : "Trabuco called the salt lake flyers and obtained the name of one of thier best flyers. Bill Elliott.
(William C Elliott) he owned a stearman plane which had conversions on it for heavier loads. The staerman had a new pratt and witney engine of 440hp and extra fuel tanks for long runs."

Quote: " trabuco returned on the first flight with Elliott and 1500lbs of gold"

Quote: "Elliott is said to have made 10 flights between August 1933 to November 1933 to move the entire stash. From Torrean to the US boarder is 600 miles and 1000 miles on to the Four corners site"

So until such an aircraft is proven to have existed in 1933 I have to use the data on the one that was definately availiable in 1933.


From another post I put up.

Length: 24 ft 3 in (7.39 m)
Wingspan: 32 ft 2 in (9.81 m)
Height: 9 ft 2 in (2.79 m)
Empty weight: 1,936 lb (878 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 2,717 lb (1,232 kg)
Powerplant: 1× Continental R-670-5 , 220 hp (164 kW)
Performance
Maximum speed: 124 mph (198 km/h)
Range: 505 mi (808 km)
Service ceiling 11,200 ft (3,415 m)

as you can see the empty weight of 878kg and the maximum takeoff weight of 1232kg leaves a difference of 354kg. if you assume the pilot weighed 60 kg that would leave you with a pay load of 294kg. this figure is way short of the 1 and a half tons that it was claimed was moved at a time.
The service ceiling of the plane is 11,200ft the story claims that the pilot cut the engine and glided over the mesa at 25,000ft.
The range of the plane is 505 miles, it is possible to fly from Mexico to the 4 corners area only traveling 505 miles, however it would have to be the boarder of Mexico/NM and would leave the pilot with very little leaway and if it was any further into Mexico than the NM boarder the pilot would be required to land the plane in the USA and refuel. once he had made it to the 4 corners area he would need to refuel again for the return leg of the journey, and would have to stop again to refuel on his way back to Mexico. The logistics of such a journey and the organization required seem unrealistic, given that these men were moving gold clandestinely.
 

Gary, I understand what you are saying. You want to see proof of the plane. Which I would assume
would be the plane its self. I don't think that's going to happen. Not, because the plane did not exist.
But, because, usually when a specific piece of spacial equipment is, was used for a less than legal
project, after the project was completed, that piece of equipment was destroyed.

The data that you have on the plane you are talking about, appears to be correct.
But, it doe's not have the modifications that the plane Trabuco used, had.

Roadquest




,
 

Roadquest said:
Gary, I understand what you are saying. You want to see proof of the plane. Which I would assume
would be the plane its self. I don't think that's going to happen. Not, because the plane did not exist.
But, because, usually when a specific piece of spacial equipment is, was used for a less than legal
project, after the project was completed, that piece of equipment was destroyed.

The data that you have on the plane you are talking about, appears to be correct.
But, it doe's not have the modifications that the plane Trabuco used, had.

Roadquest




,
Click to expand...

No Clayton, I do not want to see the "plane itself" infact lets look at it another way.
lets assume we have located a pre 1933 stearman biplane with a 440hp engine and enlarged fuel tanks.


So we now have a plane, so we conservatively assume the pilot and trabuco weigh 60kg each and the gold 1500 lbs

2 x 60 kg = 120 kg
1500lbs = 681.81 kg
120kg + 681.81 kg = 801.81 kg (1764 lbs) this figure would have to be offset against the aircrafts maximum take off weight.

No stearman even with the 440 hp conversion and larger tanks could have carried this weight, I also understand that the stearmans that were converted to crop spayers/dusters had the tanks for the spraying in the front cockpit.

I am sure that RDT can let you know that the stearman was notorious for its difficult landing, it had a tendancy to flip back over front.

Changing the engine and the fuel capacity does not drastically increase the service ceiling of an aircraft, no stearman of the period had a service cieling even approaching 25,000 ft and neither did the cessna.

Real de Tayopa said:
Hio, as I mentioned, we carried 100 gallons of Desel, go from there.


DonnJose de La Mancha
Click to expand...

That would be approx 7lbs per gallon? 700lbs of fuel that would have to be factored in to any math
 

On a differant note, 6 or 7 replys have been removed from this tread, within the last 12 hours.
If the individual that post them, removed them. I have no problem with that. I just wondered
why they were removed. If you would care to PM me with a reply. Thanks...Clayton
 

Roadquest said:
On a differant note, 6 or 7 replys have been removed from this tread, within the last 12 hours.
If the individual that post them, removed them. I have no problem with that. I just wondered
why they were removed. If you would care to PM me with a reply. Thanks...Clayton
Click to expand...

I only have 3 notification emails
 

" I suppose because he is well connected F. Lee Baily took his problems to U.S. Attorney General
John Mitchell, then repeated much of it at a lunch with H. R. Haldeman, and John Dean. Finally Dean during the
Senate Watergate Investigation testimony, talked about F. Lee Baily, and gold bars in New Mexico."

F. Lee Baily was involved with both the Trabuco gold and Victoria Peak gold.

Roadquest
 

I think the two stories are connected, Although there never was a Trabuco. All of the group were from California. The gold was Mexican in origin and was most probably a hoarde discovered by Emil Holmdahl, he was at the very least aquainted with Noss.

Klepper Ca
Clews Ca
Hougen Ca
Stewart Ca
Holmdahl Ca
Moore Ca
Nobel Ca
Luckey Ca
Fountain (pilot) Ca

Villa Mexico died 1923
 

Following copied from:
http://www.wsmr.army.mil/pao/VictorioPeak/vipt4.htm


This brings us to the point where Victorio Peak gained national exposure through the Watergate hearings and the likes of Jack Anderson and F. Lee Bailey.

On June 2, 1973, Jack Anderson reported in his syndicated column the story of noted attorney F. Lee Bailey's involvement with gold bars in New Mexico and specifically, White Sands Missile Range. According to Anderson, Bailey was authorized by a consortium to gain legal possession of the golden treasure at WSMR. The group promised to pay taxes and then sell the rest of the gold at a profit to themselves.

Bailey was supposedly skeptical at first so he asked for proof. The group came up with a gold bar about four inches long and promised hundreds more to prove their claim. Bailey sent it to the Treasury Department and had it assayed. It proved to be 60 percent gold and 40 percent copper. Anderson's article quickly pointed out ancient gold ingots often were not pure and this percentage shouldn't be viewed as significant.

A Bailey spokesman later stated the consortium knew the location of 292 gold bars, each weighing about 80 pounds. However, Treasury and Army expressed disinterest in Bailey's proposals.

Just a few numbers at this point. The bar given to Bailey was obviously not one of the alleged 80 pounders. An 80-pound bar with the stated proportion of gold and copper would be about 12 inches long, five inches wide and three inches thick. Interestingly, modern 14-karat gold jewelry is 58 percent gold and 42 percent other metals such as copper. In 1974 the same bar was examined by Los Alamos which came to the same conclusion. The press dutifully reported experts saying the bar was basically the same as jewelers gold. Hmmmm, maybe some old rings melted down?

I suppose because he is well connected, Bailey took his problems to U.S. Attorney General John Mitchell. Mitchell then repeated much of it at a lunch with H.R. Haldeman and John Dean. Finally, Dean, during his Senate Watergate Investigation testimony, mentioned something about Bailey, gold bars in New Mexico and making a deal for his client to avoid prosecution for holding gold.

As with any story repeated several times, by the time Dean told it there was some distortion---according to Bailey's people. After a storm of Watergate headlines linking treasure to the investigation, Bailey's people said there were actually two groups of people. One was a small group which had stumbled onto the gold and the other was a group of businessmen supporting them.

Bailey never would reveal who his clients were but it later came out one was a Fred Drolte wanted by authorities on an arms smuggling charge. Bailey later was quoted as saying that given a helicopter and access to White Sands he could have gold bars in 30 minutes.
 

Then there's the Michael E. Dotson version of it. Dotson and his father supposedly
found 18 tons of gold, but he needed $2.500 a day from his investors to keep the project going.
And cash to retrieve the gold.
He had federal charges against him of fraud and conspiracy on a national level.
 

Well that was the point of my post, do you believe that with so many knowing where it is they have left it there?
loads of people have been selling stories or maps over the years, not one single piece of evidence has ever been shown to collaborate the claims. Its always "he said, she said"

The truth is out there, here is a challenge to anyone. Find one piece of evidence prior to 1950 of the 17 tons story.

It simply does not exist, 1950 is the year the escrow was set up, 1952 is the year the story became public knowledge. the rest is make believe, stories made up to get the government off the scent.
How do all these story writers know so much about what went on in 1933?
I found many Leon Trabucos, not one of them fitted the profile, not even close.
All the mexican names are common names, but the profiles of all them simply do not match.
The story writers couldnt even get the name of the university right, it was just poor research from treasure story writers.
They all knew so much about the pilot, his name, where he was from, what he owned, how he died, how much money he recieved from trabuco, where he met trabuco. All made up. Elliott did not exist.
EVERY person in this story was from California, the rest is a fairy tale.
Last year I spent 9 months in the States, every day of that 9 months with the exception of 5 days, I spent researching, I have posted a good fraction of that research on here (removed now) I traveled far and wide, I went to NARA facilities, court houses, librarys, interviewed the few that still survive who knew the group, collected more than 200 newspaper articles, court papers, lease agreements.
I have asked before for evidence of a 440hp stearman that could lift 2 men and 1 1/2tons of gold, no such plane exists. yes the stearman 440 hp does exist and the pilot Walter (BUD) Fountain owned one (450 hp).
the plane still exists today, as a relic on a Californian ranch. but it was never used to move gold.
I have papers that show the group leased land, in the middle of nowhere, I have pictures of an airstrip on that land. I have a witness statement claiming Hougen was on that land in 1956 pushing a barrow with a gold ingot in it. None of the gold "owners" lived past 1967 in 1956 Hougen was 79 years old, that explains the barrow if those bars were upward of 60lbs a piece.

If I had a 17 ton hoarde of gold in california and the government were after taking it away from me, I to would claim it was in NM or SC or NC or Tx infact anywhere but California.
I believe I know the final resting place of the gold and yes its in Alaska, honestly :wink:
 

Gary,

First, I admire your ability to have the time to spend every day of nine months to do the research
you have done. There have been Lot's of people selling "maps" and "stories" on the "17 Tons of gold
in New Mexico" There is a tremendous amount of fake information out there.

A few of us, that have paid our dues, in researching this gold. And I think you may have this information also, know that the Nixon
White House had a compelling interest in this gold, and they placed false and misleading information
for researchers to find.

There will be some information that people have, that they are not going to post on this forum. Just as you have information, that you have not posted.

Theres much information of the he said, she said type. As in the witness statement claiming Hougan was on the land
in 1956 pushing a barrow with a gold ingot in it. Where is the physical evidence to collaborate his claim? If any one looks close enough they will find some kind of flaw in about any research information obtained.

No one in their right mind is going to post, or give away information that could created a chain effect, that could
give away the location of their project.. But, information has been posted to lead others to believe a "treasure" is in one location. When, in fact that poster in searching in an entirely differant area.

It has never been my intention's, to convert anyone to my belief's on the 17 tons of gold in New Mexico.

Clayton
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

New to this forum on Cape Cod

⬅️ Previous Thread

The Lost Tunnel of Leechtown - British Columbia

Next Thread ➡️

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 4 (members: 0, guests: 4)
Simplex Metal Detector

Latest Discussions

Back
Top