Where do you think the Lost Dutchman mine is?

[Oroblanco]

Let's try this again since we are both well rested now.
Have you ever found physical proof of Mexican mining in the SWA prior to 1847/8?
A simple yes or no would work.

But if you are felling generous, perhaps you can expand on your discovery for the OTHER TNet members.
Establishing a Mexican presence in the SWA seems to me the very foundation of the argument for any lost mine.

One example that I offer is the El GATO inscriptions. The authentic ones anyway.

Well not to pick a bone with you on this point or to speak for AzDave35, but I have to disagree (respectfully) on the point about a requirement that we must have a record or tradition (at least) of Mexican or Spanish (or by the padres) in the Superstitions as a foundation for any lost mine located in them.

To illustrate my point, the Dr Thorne story has no such foundation, and was not even a "mine" per se just a rich gold deposit that was known to the Indians; that alternate version of the Lost Dutchman, which I will call the Pioneer Interviews version for lack of a better name, also has no Mexican, Spanish or padre element involved. Then too, the lost Wagoner or Waggoner mine, was discovered not as a mine but as an outcropping of rose quartz with gold, no evidence or mention of any previous Mexican, Spanish or padre involvement - nor for that matter any Indian involvement. The interesting rich gold float found by a man named Jenkins in the Superstitions was likewise not from any ancient Spanish or Mexican mine. I realize that for most readers, it is far more romantic to picture the Mexican and Spanish miners working and fighting in the wilderness, using weapons hardly any superior to the bows and arrows in use by their enemies, wild massacres and pack trains loaded full of gold and silver etc. However the later Anglo miners were much more energetic in their searching for gold and for at least some of these lost mines we have no link to any Spanish or Mexican involvement at all.

I will go out on a limb here and state that I believe that pretty much ALL of the Mexican, Spanish, Franciscan or Jesuit activities IN the Superstitions were focused on SILVER not gold. I do not count the Peralta brothers incident as they were stated to be NEAR not in the mountains, and the evidence found in the Goldfield mines is also considered by most to be outside of the Superstition mountains proper. That said, there is some evidence pointing to some Mexican mining interest (if not activity) for gold very close to the Salt river and inside the Wilderness Area, but this remains unproven.

Treasure hunters and researchers have been hunting for proof of Mexican or Spanish mining in the Superstitions for a long time now with little to show for the effort, perhaps it might be more productive to focus on the Anglo period.

Please do continue, did not mean to derail the topic.
Oroblanco

 

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[Not Peralta]

have a double shot with yourTheres absolutely no proof that their was a lost Dutchman mine, or,that Jacob waltz the Dutchman ever had a mine in the superstition mnts, if anyone has factual proof, show it,? IM not doing this to start an argument, only a factual statement, np

 

[Oroblanco]

Long reply, extra coffee alert

have a double shot with yourTheres absolutely no proof that their was a lost Dutchman mine, or,that Jacob waltz the Dutchman ever had a mine in the superstition mnts, if anyone has factual proof, show it,? IM not doing this to start an argument, only a factual statement, np

I don't drink alcohol any more but gracias nevertheless, I prefer coffee now. As to your 'factual' statement, really I have to disagree and do we really have to go over the whole thing again? Maybe we could agree that in your OPINION there is no factual evidence, and in my OPINION there certainly is. Where exactly did that gold ore we can see in the famous matchbox come from, if you discount Dick Holmes statement that it came from Waltz? Where did Julia Thomas suddenly get enough money to pay her debts, when she was in financial trouble over the soda fountain and other supplies?

Why would Julia Thomas sell her business and go search for the mine and cache? Why would all three Petrasches spend years searching, Herman to his death, and why would Dick Holmes, Brownie Holmes and his partner Clay Wurst spend their lives searching for the mine, if they were lying about Waltz having a rich gold mine hidden in the Superstitions? Why would Jacob Waltz point to the Superstition mountains and tell his closest friends that is where his mine is located?

I don't have the time or inclination trying to convince people on the internet that the Lost Dutchman mine exists. It seems that too many words will result in no one reading it anyway. I think we have gone over things in some detail, perhaps even over-thinking things. If you are convinced there is not enough evidence to suit your view for a real lost gold mine, I have no problem with that. To me there is, as posted earlier, several sticking points that would have to be explained and proven to be not connected to Waltz. Hmm perhaps I can put it clearly for one last time.

1: Jacob Waltz had a known history of being a successful prospector. This supports the contention that he could find a gold mine. He moved to Phoenix in 1868, and lived there until his death in 1891. He could have discovered his mine in that 23 year period.

2: We can see very interesting gold ore in the famous matchbox, and if you are lucky, in the cufflinks, tie pin and the few sample pieces not made into jewelry. Helen Corbin wrote in her FIRST book, which was published before a certain party entered onto the LDM scene and so much questionable materials appeared, that both Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn were shown the letter from the University of Arizona stating that the gold ore came from an unknown source, it did not match any known mine in Arizona. This ore has certain characteristics which are very unlike most Arizona gold ores, and would almost certainly come from a deposit that would not pinch out or be easily "cleaned out" as most Epithermal gold veins are.

3: The people who knew Waltz in his last days, namely Julia Thomas, Reinhard (Reiney) Petrasch, and Dick Holmes ALL stated that Waltz had a rich gold mine, that he had a candle box of ore left after paying Julia's debt, and ALL went searching for that mine.

4: We have the Dr. John Walker story of encountering Jacob Wisner/Weiser, and the striking similarities with the Jacob Waltz story which point to Weiser being Waltz's partner. This story comes from Tom Weedin a newspaper man, and some discount it on those grounds but Walker was a highly respected Arizona pioneer, and he certainly grubstaked several people to search for the mine of the Weiser story so I do not doubt it.

5: While the geology of much of the Superstitions is not promising for gold, there ARE quite a few locations where not only signs of hydrothermal activity can be found, but you can actually pan gold in many of those places as in Fish creek for instance or most anywhere on Tortilla mountain, even along the south side of Superstition mountain in the area near the Palmer mine. The fact that gold IS found in the Superstitions, not to mention the existence of a number of silver and copper mines located along the E and NE fringes, is evidence that a hidden gold mine which could be quite rich COULD exist in those mountains.

6: While the geological studies done by the USGS were not promising for gold, (they were trying to include as much land as possible in the Wilderness Area so may well have been somewhat biased, by order from Above) one of the tests done did show promise. The mercury vapor test, which was done by testing the air over the mountains, indicated a strong possibility of a very rich and very large gold deposit in those mountains - and suggested that it may be deeply buried. This too supports the possibility that the story of Waltz is true.

7: We have the statements from John D. Mitchell, saying that he was told by several individuals whom witnessed Waltz selling a burro load of rich gold ore in Tucson. These individuals then attempted to trail Waltz to his mine, but lost him after passing the Whitlow ranch. One of those named individuals was a well known Arizona pioneer respected for his truthfulness, and was still living when Mitchell published his account so could have challenged it if it were untrue.

We also have the hotly-challenged story of Wells Fargo shipping receipts for some $250,000 worth of gold, and written statement saying that someone did see those receipts. Wells Fargo lost all of their records for Arizona frontier days, so we can not confirm OR deny this part - however it might well be true. The fact that others have seen those receipts suggests to me that they may well turn up some day. We can go over the MOUNTAIN of documents, maps and claims/stories besides these few points, however there is a great deal of nonsense and false or totally unrelated information in that which may be mistakenly mixed into the LDM legend, like the Apache Jack gold for instance.

If you are satisfied that none of this amounts to 'factual evidence' then good for you, more power to you, you won't have to spend a moment of your time hunting for a lost mine you don't believe exists. For some of us however, there certainly is enough evidence to warrant a search and investigation. I believe that geology is the key to finding the mine, but it might be found by someone just out of sheer luck or by accident. I could also point out that even were we hunting for a totally fictional lost mine, the fact that we do go out and search is actually greatly increasing the odds that we may find a rich gold or silver deposit, or a cache of treasure, just by being out there searching. (I refer to the now famous Easter Bunny lost gold mine of the Superstitions and also several other states.) People might be surprised at the number of good to excellent gold and silver mines which were discovered rather by accident, by treasure hunters searching for a lost mine which was NOT the one they found.

For all of you convinced there never was a Lost Dutchman's gold mine, great because you won't be competing with any of us that are hunting for it. Stay home, give me your prospecting equipment and maps, and/or take up some other avocation. I don't personally know anyone that ever got rich playing golf or going fishing but these are excellent pastimes and will probably be more rewarding for you. Maybe you can become a pro golfer, and get rich playing at the tournaments? I do know several people whom have become quite well off from treasure hunting and prospecting however, and have had some success personally.

Good luck and good hunting to you treasure hunters, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. To the rest of you I wish you a very pleasant evening, I hope you have a great weekend ahead.
Oroblanco

Please do continue, I am sort of sneaking away from what I should be doing but will try to pop in later this evening.

　
　

 

[i am the horse]

have a double shot with yourTheres absolutely no proof that their was a lost Dutchman mine, or,that Jacob waltz the Dutchman ever had a mine in the superstition mnts, if anyone has factual proof, show it,? IM not doing this to start an argument, only a factual statement, np

i am going to have to disagree that there isnt proof.. show the proof why??... its not what i am looking for.scott wood didnt show an interest when i told him i would send him pics of it amongst other thingss.other people didnt care either... its not what the stones lead to..it is something they stumbled on at a later date while making the stones.a bonus if you will...thats my honest opinion.. the stones are truly remarkable.. very accurate to points,but thats all they are are points.. i believe you have to find multiple points to find the good stuff... but how thats the question..wouldnt even be able to call 911 in an emergency..ya get itlike i said.. i have the dot next to the dagger and the obvious northwest marker on the latin heart... but where from there for what i seekidk

 

[Hal Croves]

have a double shot with yourTheres absolutely no proof that their was a lost Dutchman mine, or,that Jacob waltz the Dutchman ever had a mine in the superstition mnts, if anyone has factual proof, show it,? IM not doing this to start an argument, only a factual statement, np

Its just a conversation. You should feel free to write whatever you believe.
However... your position places you in a very difficult spot. It is public record that several people familiar with a man named Waltz went a look'en for something in the Superstition Range just after his passing. Do you have any explanation as to what they may have been looking for or, what may have inspired them to take such risk?

Thanks!

 

[captain1965]

OK I will bite..

There is no proof of anything!! BUT there is a likely hood of a mine in the Superstitions!! Every "clue" is arguable in itself. Just because someone said something doesn't make it true. BUT when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence it has a strong possibility of being true. Until gold is scientifically tested to match "known" (still arguable .. Lol) Waltz gold there is no proof. Where there Jesuits north of the Gila? Maps they made show the salt and the Moqui. Maybe the Pima told them maybe not. Did Waltz give Julia money from gold? Many say yes. Does that make it fact? No! If we have documents to prove it does that mean the gold came from the Superstitions? No! Did she believe the gold came from those mountains? Hmm she sold her business and reported going in there looking. The proof is the discovery. I'm looking. :-)

 

[Hal Croves]

Well not to pick a bone with you on this point or to speak for AzDave35, but I have to disagree (respectfully) on the point about a requirement that we must have a record or tradition (at least) of Mexican or Spanish (or by the padres) in the Superstitions as a foundation for any lost mine located in them.

To illustrate my point, the Dr Thorne story has no such foundation, and was not even a "mine" per se just a rich gold deposit that was known to the Indians; that alternate version of the Lost Dutchman, which I will call the Pioneer Interviews version for lack of a better name, also has no Mexican, Spanish or padre element involved. Then too, the lost Wagoner or Waggoner mine, was discovered not as a mine but as an outcropping of rose quartz with gold, no evidence or mention of any previous Mexican, Spanish or padre involvement - nor for that matter any Indian involvement. The interesting rich gold float found by a man named Jenkins in the Superstitions was likewise not from any ancient Spanish or Mexican mine. I realize that for most readers, it is far more romantic to picture the Mexican and Spanish miners working and fighting in the wilderness, using weapons hardly any superior to the bows and arrows in use by their enemies, wild massacres and pack trains loaded full of gold and silver etc. However the later Anglo miners were much more energetic in their searching for gold and for at least some of these lost mines we have no link to any Spanish or Mexican involvement at all.

I will go out on a limb here and state that I believe that pretty much ALL of the Mexican, Spanish, Franciscan or Jesuit activities IN the Superstitions were focused on SILVER not gold. I do not count the Peralta brothers incident as they were stated to be NEAR not in the mountains, and the evidence found in the Goldfield mines is also considered by most to be outside of the Superstition mountains proper. That said, there is some evidence pointing to some Mexican mining interest (if not activity) for gold very close to the Salt river and inside the Wilderness Area, but this remains unproven.

Treasure hunters and researchers have been hunting for proof of Mexican or Spanish mining in the Superstitions for a long time now with little to show for the effort, perhaps it might be more productive to focus on the Anglo period.

Please do continue, did not mean to derail the topic.
Oroblanco

I wrote "lost mine", meaning a site that was previously discovered and actively worked. The examples that you gave are untouched outcroppings, float, and the Thorne story gold which I thought was a pile of gathered ore (memory stall).
The point that I am trying to make here is that many of the stories seem to include the discovery of a lost mine. That's true in many legends.

Before ANYONE employed by the DOI will entertain tales of lost treasure in the Superstitions, some form of physical proof must be presented. In my mind, that means archival documents, authentic maps with a clear provenance, artifacts (both cultural and religious), or the big one, an actual lost Mexican (or Spanish) mine.

I think that the proof is out there, in various small discoveries that get repeated around campfires or under warm blankets. They just need to be coalesced into one intelligent argument. It's a tall order.

Thank goodness you have returned. Like turning on a light.

 

[azblackbird]

The point that I am trying to make here is that many of the stories seem to include the discovery of a lost mine.

Here's what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe you can help me. Can you tell me what the difference between a lost mine or an abandoned mine is? I have discovered many mines (some actually pretty deep) while exploring in the Bradshaws. Often times I can find no records of ownership or what they were originally digging for... all I found was just a big ole' hole in the ground or an adit deep into the side of a mountain or hill. Do you think those that originally dug those big deep holes lost them, or did they just get tired of digging and abandon them?

 

[azdave35]

Here's what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe you can help me. Can you tell me what the difference between a lost mine or an abandoned mine is? I have discovered many mines (some actually pretty deep) while exploring in the Bradshaws. Often times I can find no records of ownership or what they were originally digging for... all I found was just a big ole' hole in the ground or an adit deep into the side of a mountain or hill. Do you think those that originally dug those big deep holes lost them, or did they just get tired of digging and abandon them?

in 1942 the government shut all small mining down...the people didnt lose them...they got ran out..lol....after WW2 was over the economy was so good and jobs were plentiful so nobody wanted to beat their brains out mining anymore...mining didnt start up again until the 60's when all the treasure magazines came on the scene and got everyone interested again

 

[djui5]

Words, words words ...

I did say in my original post that this isn't a place to debate the validity of the clues. Please, everyone, refrain from trying to dismiss the mine itself. This thread is for discussion about where you think the mine might be, and what clues lead you to that conclusion. If you don't believe in the mine, please don't post in this thread. Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[Somero]

Is this a new forum policy that OP makes rules? When I first saw that I wondered how long it would take you to single someone out. I wasn't sure then who you were fishing for. Go review the previous posts, and then explain why my three word post was your trigger. What could I have possibly posted in response to Roy's passel to NOT have brought your froth? Yet you chose to quote me for this - how transparent .

Yer welcome. If the mods want to set precedent that an OP can make up thread rules please say so - so I can OP some fine threads. That is all.

I believe djui5 did outline how he would like to have the thread he started flow. So keeping it on topic is just a matter of respect.

 

[azblackbird]

in 1942 the government shut all small mining down...the people didnt lose them...they got ran out..lol....after WW2 was over the economy was so good and jobs were plentiful so nobody wanted to beat their brains out mining anymore...mining didnt start up again until the 60's when all the treasure magazines came on the scene and got everyone interested again

You know what's funny. People whine and complain about government overreach in our current society. What we have today is childs play compared to what went on in the early 20th century. Your reply jogged my memory on the shut down of the gold mines during the war effort, so I had to look up the exact order that was enacted during that time. There would be blood in the streets if this were to happen today!

 

[Oroblanco]

I did say in my original post that this isn't a place to debate the validity of the clues. Please, everyone, refrain from trying to dismiss the mine itself. This thread is for discussion about where you think the mine might be, and what clues lead you to that conclusion. If you don't believe in the mine, please don't post in this thread. Thanks for your cooperation.

My apologies for having gotten so far off topic.

To try to tie all that posted earlier in to the subject matter, considering the geology coupled with some of the info on the routes of travel Waltz used, I think the mine may actually be in sight from the Apache trail as well as the old military trail, and not very far from a road. A lot of searching has been done inside the Wilderness Area boundaries but who looks in sight of the highway? Not many, if anyone does.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[jeff of pa]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr, Read the OP's post.
it tells you what the thread is about !

I'm getting tired of messing threads up with warnings when there is an easier solution.
Like removing the offender from treasureNet !

it seems obvious to me you don't believe in this treasure so now that you have made that clear ,
perhaps it's time for you to go discuss one you do believe in.

If you don't believe in Treasures at all, Perhaps your membership here was an Error

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[Gold Maven]

I love the LDM story, but I have always been skeptical.

The normal course of events in prospecting is: prospector finds a rich out cropping, stakes and files claim to it, and then develops a mine himself, or sells it....ore samples like the match box would call for top dollar.

So, why didn't the Dutchman do this?

He was a miner for most of his life, he knew how to make money from a strike, so why live in a shack, with just enough money to get by?

He worked for years at the Vulture Mine, could it be that he high graded, and stashed a pile of rich, hand picked ore somewhere out in the hills?

Why would he make up a story? Perhaps to hide the fact that he was nothing more than a common thief.

Don't hate me for this theory, but how many thousands of people have combed those hills, and found nothing?

Just my opinion, I do believe there is a cache of ore there somewhere......

 

[Not Peralta]

have some Im so glad I could get the conversation started, yes like every one else its my opinion, every one has one, but I still have not heard anyone mention anything factual.
only hearsay, that's how these things get started. don't stop the conversation by saying' OH ' things have secretly been found or removed from the mnts by individuals over the years, if you believe that ,then tell the story about who hunted for it, and why, and how it come to be hidden there,and how you know about it, you don't have to mention any names, just tell us a factual statement about it. NP

 

[sgtfda]

There is no record the Dutchman worked at the Vulture Mine. He did have his own mines in the Bradshaws. Here is a thought. Everyone talks about comparing gold ore to the matchbox. How about Quartz samples from the Bradshaw mines. I've heard Bob Corbin now thinks the LDM is in the Bradshaws.
Can't find those mines? Well then there is more than one LDM then. So Randy which one. We have real mines and we have the legend mine.

 

[Hal Croves]

Here's what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe you can help me. Can you tell me what the difference between a lost mine or an abandoned mine is? I have discovered many mines (some actually pretty deep) while exploring in the Bradshaws. Often times I can find no records of ownership or what they were originally digging for... all I found was just a big ole' hole in the ground or an adit deep into the side of a mountain or hill. Do you think those that originally dug those big deep holes lost them, or did they just get tired of digging and abandon them?

Good Morning azblackbird,

I hope that this post doesn't disappoint.
Because we need some place to begin, I would say that all lost mines were abandon at some point but not all abandon mines are lost.


So, for example. There is a "lost" silver mine just off the Appalachian Trail in Beemersville, NJ. It was worked at the turn of the century to a depth of 109 feet. The owner reportedly died while traveling to Newark to have the ore assayed. Well, the funding stopped and the project was abandon. Over the years it was "lost" but with a little research, the mines location is easily found just 15 minutes from the trail head. Was it a lost mine? Only in the mind of those who didn't know where to look. In fact, it's location is even depicted on some state topo maps. I spent a few summers looking for it as a kid and only found a bad case of poison ivy. Had I asked the locals, which I eventually did, I would have learned the location and the mines history years before I actually did. Here is a chance for me to pitch a visit to Space Farms. Many historical items on display to get lost in. Mr. Space collected/preserved many local mining and native artifacts.


What may have happened in the Superstitions is entirely different. Contrary to what is said about mineralization, we know for fact that gold is found in the SWA. Just how much is anyone's guess but I think, I believe that it may be substantial. To understand the possibility, one would have to understand the political history of Mexico. Most influential Mexicans knew the Americans were coming and that resistance was hopeless. How did they know this? From the Masonic lodges that more or less divided that country into two groups.


Armed with the knowledge that the gringos were coming with an insatiable appetite for land (cloak in the deception of Manifest Destiny), any Mexicans who were mining the Superstitions had time to erase evidence of their work before the retreat. And why not. They were uncertain times and politically, Mexico was a mess (familiar). Hide now because one day we may be able to return. Now there is no official or historical proof that this happened but, IMO, it's entirely possible.


Were these mines lost? Well, I think that they were to history after several generations. But someone, somewhere in Mexico may have held onto maps of these lost mines and stories of amazing discoveries. And those we may have examples of.


These are just my personal thoughts.
I will say this. Someone was mining the Superstitions prior to the arrival of the Americans.
Who and for what is the question.

 

[Oroblanco]

Not Peralta (and others) out of respect for Randy we should try to keep on topic. I am guilty of going far off topic so not throwing stones, but perhaps someone should start a new thread, titled "No Evidence Of The LDM" for that debate. It is easy to say "there is no evidence" but if you would do some research you will find that there is evidence, and that matchbox does exist so it is not accurate to say there is no evidence.

Sarge - interesting of course AND there is also a legend of a lost Dutchman mine IN the Bradshaws. Coincidence? Maybe not, for we have the name of that Dutchman and it was Henry Youngblood, and the description of the mine (limited as it is) is different from what we have on Waltz. But if his mine were in the Bradshaws, why would he have told his closest friends it was in the Superstitions, and so many other links tying him there. It would not be too handy to go to Adams mill from the Bradshaws for flour and supplies. There is also a lost Dutchman gold mine in the Vultures, and again it can not be the same with Waltz for that Dutchman was found dead in those mountains. The description of that mine and ore are also quite different from Waltz's.


What about the statement from Bicknell that the mine is within a five mile radius of Weaver's needle? This same phrase was found in Adolph Ruth's notes after his death. Some have misinterpreted that radius to diameter, making a smaller area and not what Bicknell wrote in 1895. Could the mine be within five miles of Weaver's needle?

Please do continue amigos,
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

Bicknell was searching the Rodgers Canyon area. Good way to keep everyone away from your search area. Write a story that it's elsewhere.