What REALLY happened to the wealth of Knights Templar

[Oroblanco]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET Julesway!

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[Julesway]

Thanks Oroblanco!!

 

[Julesway]

Does anyone have any interesting info on Pinal County? Also if anyone is interested in the paranormal please see my video on utube my username is 1191julie. I have not anyway of anaylizing the audio and this is for real and for serious listeners. Any negotive comments will be deleted. Please if anyone can pluck out the background voice and show me what it said I would be very greatful.

 

[Daryl Friesen]

It has been suggested that the Knights templar buried some of there treasure near Oak Island in Canada and that this is what the famous treasure buried on Oak Island is. Oak Island was a cache site for templars knights and Oak Island's famous money filling pits where not built by pirates as has been suspected.

Daryl
www.spindlequest.com/treasuremaps.html

 

[Old Dog]

Hey Daryl,
Try the link when you post one.
This way you know whether it works or not.

 

[Daryl Friesen]

Yeah hey thanks for pointing that one out.

try this

www.spindlequest.com/treasuremaps.htm

 

[Lucky Eddie]

In the 1950's during an excavation of a wall there, a SEA SHELL, CARVED IN THE LEVEL AND COMPASS DESIGN, THAT THE KNIGHTS HAD AS THEIR SEAL, WAS FOUND.

A lot of errors enter the story as it is told and re told.

Level and compass design of the Knights Templar?

It was more the Masons sign, and it is a square and compass (dividers) - not a level and compass!

The sign of the masons was the beausant, (skull & crossbones) which they flew on their vessels and with which they marked their graves in the early middle ages. There are specific examples remaining at the graveyard of the ruins of Sinclaires Rosslyn Castle in Scotland (Not Rosslyn Chapple).

I recall black n white photos of such in Robert Lomas and Michael Baigents book Holy Blood & the Holy Graile.

Cheers

 

[lamar]

Interesting thread.

IMHO - it would have been all the MORE interesting had LAMAR stayed entirely out of it.

He is a deliberate "spoiler" of any serious discussion than his own "theory" which is to put anyone else off the track - and allow the jesuits to continue their search.

He insults a lot of serious research on the subject, while pushing his own barrow, as that is his job here, at the orders of the vactcan.

LAMAR is no one friend here!

I woud not discuss my knowledeg of the matter (and it is extensive) of the origin of the templar treasure nor where it remains to this day.

You have been given clues along the way by various posters - good clues, yet if one were to believe LAMAR - its all nonsense.

IF you knew the truth - you would understand his role here as a deliberate spoiler.

The Vatican do NOT want the truth told about the Knights templar (Nor the organisations that exist to this day in the form of the Freemasons and the Priory of Zion (Prieurre De Sion).

It is not possible to discuss this subject with LAMARS opinion being shouted at people every 2nd post - no flow of discussion can occur and when someone tries LAMARstarst with name calling etc - very poor behavior on a forum - one against the rules and for which he should be banned from further posting on this thread IMHO.

I would not waste my time - trying to give the whole story from beginning to end, while he is allowed carte blanche to wreck any serious discussion on the subject for his vatican masters by his constant interjection posting designed to break the flow of information and dscredit any posts made that get too close to the truth.

Sadly - the polularised books like those of Dan Browns (definitely plagiarized - despite what the court said) have taken a real story and made it into a fairytale for popular consumption and led to films of a similar nature - that lost sight of the real story.

One needs spys and car chases and breaking into Vatican underground vaults etc to make a movie that will grab this generations dumbed down intelligence and limited concentration span for 2 hours to make $ from it.

The REAL story is FAR more interesting!

We MUST come to understand and read between the lines of what today is presented as "fact" by the vatican.

It is VERY simple.

The Prieure de sion (Priory of Zion) exist to preserve a titular bloodline - that of Christ himself.

Yes Christ was crucified and died on the cross for5 our sins and was resurrected.

Did he have a bloodline that survived him, a pregnant "wife" maybe?

Clues to this mystery.

1. Was Jesus Married?

It doesn't specifically say so in the bible or does it? What do we know if contemporary life of a Jew 2000 years ago?
Here's some facts to think about.

Jesus was referred to often as "rabboni" often translated as "teacher".
In Hebrew it meant Rabbi!
Can Rabbis marry or are they celibate as some later religions require do of their clergy?

Answer; - in REAL Jewish life of 2000 years ago a Rabbi HAD to be married, he couldn't be a rabbi if he wasn't married because ONE of the main duties was to dispense marital advice, it was a pre - requisite for the job!.

Thus there is "some evidence" - to suggest that as a Jewish rabbi Jesus was married.
Any other corroborating evidence?

2. What about the wedding in Cana!

Who comes to Jesus and says that the wines run out and he should do something about it?

Yes its Jesus Mother Mary who comes to him and suggests this - when he says his time is not yet come - then turns the water to wine!.

Why would a guest at a wedding feast be responsible for the provision of alcoholic drinks?.

In Jewish custom of 2000 years ago - who was responsible for provision of the wine at a wedding?

Answer = Same as today - the Groom, hence Jesus was the groom and was responsible for the provision of wine.

3. When in Jewish custom of 2000 years ago - can a female order any male "in public" to do anything?

Answer - in ONLY one case is a woman permitted to order a male jew to do anything in public!
When the Mother of the Groom is the "hostess" of the wedding, and the groom needs reminding of his responsibility to provide wine as it is running out!

In any other circumstance where a woman ordered a male jew to do anything in public - she would be unceremoniously slapped down publicly and forbidden to speak.

Thus Mary Jesus Mother was hostess of the wedding in Cana & Jesus was the groom.

4. Any other evidence that Jesus was the groom?.
Yes - when the wine from water is produced, a guest says that "thou (Jesus) has saved the best wine for last and that usually - the best wine is served first and cheaper wine served towards the end of the feast omnce people have had their fill, and wouldn't appreciate the good wine.

Jesus is addressed as the groom - "thou" hast, etc etc
Much evidence to suggest Jesus was indeed Married.

5. I've seen it suggested the marriage took place after John The Baptist was beheaded. I've seen it suggested that Mary Magdelan, was John the Baptists widow. Remember that John the Baptist and Jesus were cousins! (Mary went to visit John the Baptists mother elizabeth (her sister), who herself was well advanced in pregnancy with John the baptist and the baby Jesus moved in Marys womb).

As John The baptists cousin, it would be within custom for Jesus to take her in as his wife under Jewish law at the time.
She was NOT a virgin bride - she was after all John the Baptists wife & then widow, before becoming Jesus wife.
Even today - we do NOT celebrate second marriages the way we do with first marriages. For this reason the marriage between Jesus and Mary Magdalene doesn't get the "biblical press" it might otherwise have done.

6. Who was the disciple that Jesus loved more than the others, that he might kiss that disciple on the mouth? Try his wife Mary Magdalene.

7. What was Jesus relationship with Lazarus?

Lazarus was Mary Magdalenes brother, thus Jesus brother in law. We know this because when Jesus arrives 3 days after Lazarus death & Mary Magdalene, his wife - berates him saying that if he had got their sooner Lazarus (her brother & Jesus bro in law) would still be alive!

Jesus raised Lazarus his bro in law from death after 3 days - just as he will in future be raised to life after 3 days of his death!.

8. Who is Mary Magdalene & Lazarus' Father?...

John of Arimathea!

Why does John of Arimathea - give up his grave crypt in the garden at Gethsemanie for Jesus body and why does he beg Pontious Pilate, for the release of Jesus body after the crucifiction - to him for burial & why does Pontious Pilate agree?

Because; A) Jesus is his son in law, B ) because Jesus is his daughters husband, & C) because Jesus raised his son Lazarus from death!

The Bible gets much easier to "understand" when one establishes the relationships that existed between the key players. It even makes more literal sense!

9. Jesus as "king of the Jews!"

Jesus was descended from the line of David - he had to be, in order to be "king of the Jews!".
Everyone knew that a descendant of David's line would save them and become their king!

Theres a LONG list of antiscendents of Jesus father Joseph listed in the bible to show Jesus lineage back to David.

Couple problems with that tho:-

A) Jesus was the son of God - begat by God when his soul overcame virgin Mary and she became pregnant with baby Jesus.
So just HOW does Josephs lineage have anything to do with Jesus right to be King of the Jews?
Next? It's not ones fathers lineage that counts in Jewish custom - it's ones mothers lineage that coveys jewishness on a Jew!
Example...a Jewish Man marries a NON Jewish mother, and they have a male child- try going to register the child in a JEWISH school! Sorry no can do - the child is a "goy" - non Jew. Unless the child of a Jewish mother, you are no Jew.

OK... So why was it "politically important" for Jesus to be married to Mary Magdalene?
Because Mary Magdalene, was a direct lineal descendant of the Davidic line thru HER mother.

Any offspring of Mary Magdalene and Jesus COULD hold LEGITIMATELY the title of King Of The Jews and save them from their roman oppressors. It was a stategically political alliance of the families (Josephs and John Of Arimathea). "John" of Arimathea's son by Mary Mother of Jesus sister Elizabeth, begat "John" the Baptist, named after his father "John" of Arimathea.

Bible story starting to make any more sense yet?

Right oh.

10. Jesus and Mary Magdelans son!

Is there any biblical clues as to his identity- is he named anywhere in the Bible?

Why yes he is!

When Pontious Pilate decides to "let one of the prisoners free" before Jesus crucifixion, he gives the crownd of jews a choice between two candidates.

The two candidates?

"Rabbi - Jesus" (Rabboni / Teacher) son of Mary Magdalene, and another candidate named "Jesus Barrabbas".

Who is this Jesus Barrabbas? Was "Yeshua" Jesus / Savior such a common name back then?

In Hebrew what does Jesus Barrabbas translate as?

It translates as Yeshua (Jesus) Bar (Son of) Rabbi (Raboni / teacher)

The second candidate was named "Son Of The Rabbi Jesus!

The jews were given a choice between freeeing Jesus the Rabbi or Son of the Rabbi Jesus.

The Jews had to pick between two men - Jesus or his son as to who to save!

Who would the Jews select in that case?

Would they save Jesus (son of god) or the Son of the Rabbi Jesus who WAS of the davidic line by his mother Mary Magdalene and thus capable of beig the Savior they were looking for to free them from the tyranny of Rome.?

The Jews knowingly chose to save Jesus SON (Jesus bloodline) as their future "titular (bloodline) king" descended from David - who could free them from oppression.

Who would we save today - given the same choice? - Prince Charles or Prince William (Harry)? given the choice of only one?
We would save Willaim as our future king because f the necessity to preserve the bloodline!!

Pretty simple really!

Bible story starting to make any sense yet?

So Mary Magdalene left Jeruslaem with her father Jospeh of Arimathea & Mary Mother of Jesus, Mary Magdelans Brother Lazarus and Her son Jesus Barrabas, and sailed for the Languedock in France, and later England.

From Jesus Barrabas, was descended eventually in England/France a relative / direct lineal blood descendant of the king of the Jews - one Godfroi Du Bullione, a knight of the order of the templars who led a crusade to re - take Jerusalem, in 1099 which he DID!

A Direct Bloodline Davidic Descendent of the King of the Jews ruling on the throne of Jeruslaem as God always intended for his people - which lasted almost 100 years before they were again deposed by the saracens!.

During that period - the temple treasures (menorah and ark of the covenant) found under solomons stables during excavations by the knights templar - were spirited out of Jerusalem before the loss of the city to the saracens.

They were smuggled thru the Languedoc in southern france - and off to the Sinclairs of Rosslyn - who had Rosslyn chappel built to be an exact duplicate in layout of the herodic temple in Jerusalem to house the sacred symbols of judaism until again a direct lineal blood descendant of the Davidic line thru Jesus ad jesus barrabbas and then Godfrio du bullione etc should again sit on the throne of Jeruslaem.

The fact that so many of the grail family resided for long periods under the protection of the templars led to the legends of treasure in the languedoc and particularly at rennes le chateaux.

The whole thing is about protection (from the vatican) of the royal bloodline of the jews!

The organization today known as freemasonry is just a low level funding arm of the Prieurre de sion (Priory of zion) whos ENTIRE mission is:-

To preserve the holy relics required in the inner sanctum for the daily sacrifices,
To preserve the titular bloodline of christ, to again sit upon the throne of Jerusalem as God intends despite the Vaticans determination to expunge this bloodline from the world.

This is the purpose of Freemasonry (although few of them know it - they are just a funding arm), it is Pierre de Plantard & the Priory of Zion - who do this work that once was the Templars role - to protect at all cost the titual bloodline4 of the throne of Jerusalem. The Holy Grail (Gralle Royale - litterally royal blood) protection of it from the attempts of LAMARS Bosses at the Vatican to wipe it out!

When Jesus did die on the cross, he left his position as the left pillar of the Jewish church (Two Pillars Jachin & Boaz - were in fact Jesus as the Priestly Pillar & His brother James as the Political Pillar) To his Brother "James the Just" - NOT to Peter (Thou art Petrus "Rock" upon whom i will build my church), as the vatican proclaim.

The vatican Pope proclaims himself in latin "vacarivs filli dei" Vicar of the son of God.

He takes his authority to rule Christs church on earth from Peter the Roman, (Petrus)

As Peter was a disciple, the pope proclaims himself "Vicar of Jesus church on Earth" on the Authority of Peter!

Yet we know Jesus REALLY left his church in the care of his brother James The Just!

We were left a clue - how to know the beast.

1. He would think to change the times (of sacrifices etc).
The Jews worshipped on the sabbath Saturday

This was problematic for the Romans in administrative terms because they being sun worshippers, worshipped on the venerable day of the sun - Sunday.

The problem was that holding court, was work and Jews wouldn't labor on a sabbath (Saturday) - which meant they didn't come to court when summonsed on a Saturday to bear witness or hear charges against them etc. It was against their religion.

So at the council of Nicea the 10 commadements in the bible were altered by the romans - to allow Sunday worship.

(There are TWO sets of 10 commandments - one set in a catholic bible that don't mention the 4th commandment about honoring the sabbath and keeping it holy. What they do to make up for this omission - is to split the tenth commandment about not coveting they neighbors wife and chattels into TWO commandments - one about the neighbors wife and a second about his chattels! This way the micks can worship on a Sunday, being non the wiser they are breaking one of the 10 commadments about honoring the sabbath and keeping it holy!

This worked really well and Now everyone would come to Court on Saturday and all worsjip (the sun) on Sunday!

So the micks are all sun worshippers basically!

We were also given a clue as to the number of his name. (666).

I've seen heaps of suggestions from bar codes to chip implants - when the REAL beast is the Pope!

Common languages in use at the time of Christ?

Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek (latin).

Each had their own Gemmatria or assignatonof numerals to lettersof their respective alphabets!

Heres the REAL meaning of the number of the name in the respecyive gemmatria of all 3 languages inuse at the time the bible new testament was written.

You might want to save a copy for future reference because lamar and his vatican boss (The Beast) will do everything in their power to expunge / discredit this.

In all 3 languages in common use at the time the name of the pope translates as 666.

When someone suggest to you that some other person or thing is the beast - try it in al 3 languages as you see here - ONLY to Pope is the correct candidate!

Freemasons won't tell you this, - they will allow the micks into their fold so that their money can be funneled to the Prieurre de Sion for the protection of the titular bloodline of Christ.

They have a plan to again seat a rightfull heir to the throne of Jerusalem again on that throne.

They will protect that bloodline and the temple treasures until that time - (the rebuilding of the temple for the 3rd & last time).

Anyone cares to think back, and before becoming prime minister if Israel some years back Ariel Sharon conducted a march on the site of Solomons and the Herodian temple mounts to lay the cornerstone of the new temple.

It set off an outrage among the muslims - who worship at the Al aksa Mosque.

They all know the Al Aksa mosque (dome of the rock) has to come down for the Jews to build their 3rd temple.

The thing is - It doesn't require that Israeli jews have the Al Aksa mosque demolished to build their 3rd temple.

If and when in Gods own good time he wishes this too happen - he will arrange for the mosque to fall, whether by war or earthquake or whatever - he is more than capable of removing the Alaksa mosque to make way for his 3d temple to be built before the return of Christ without any help from mankind trying to 'hurry up the event" with wars in the Middle east!

In the meantime the remnant of the Knights Templar called the Prieure De Sion - keep on doing their job of preserving the treasure (under the Rosslyn Chappel) for the time it will be required in the 3rd temple AND preservation of the rightfull bloodline for the throne of Jeruslaem.

I encourage you to read books by Beigent and Leigh, such as the holy blood and the holy grail - books like "Born of a Woman" by Shelby Spong and many others that will lead you to be able to think for yourselves, and reject the evil spouted by the Vaticans man here - servant of the Beast - LAMAR, who would deny you all this knowledge which is freely available.

Don't allow people Like Lamar to lead you away from the truth while he and his masters search for the treasure themselves and do their best to expunge the titular bloodline of Christ.

There is balck and white in this world, good and evil - Lamars boss is the beast 6666 of revelations as I've just unequivocally shown you.

I have a belief that people innately KNOW within themselves if what they have read is true or not!

Let the spirit of Christ within you, be your guide in judging what you've just read!

May God Bless you all in the name of his son Jesus who died for our sins.

Shalom...much more than just peace.

Dear Lucky Eddie;
I can understand why you are called LUCKY Eddie, instead of say, BRIGHT Eddie or INTELLIGENT Eddie, my friend. First, you may leave all of your anti-Catholic rhetoric OUT of your tale, if you don't mind. Blaspheming the One True and Most Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ will NOT endear you to me. It's immediately obvious that you have a VERY limited knowledge regarding the history of the Roman Catholic Church and that your anti-Catholic biases run deep. Please take your hatred of Roman Catholics and the Vatican somewhere else. Thank you.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Old Dog]

Dear Lucky Eddie;
I can understand why you are called LUCKY Eddie, instead of say, BRIGHT Eddie or INTELLIGENT Eddie, my friend. First, you may leave all of your anti-Catholic rhetoric OUT of your tale, if you don't mind. Blaspheming the One True and Most Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ will NOT endear you to me. It's immediately obvious that you have a VERY limited knowledge regarding the history of the Roman Catholic Church and that your anti-Catholic biases run deep. Please take your hatred of Roman Catholics and the Vatican somewhere else. Thank you.
Your friend;
LAMAR

And your pro catholic biases tend to do the same for the rest of us.
I saw no hatred in Eddie's post. a simple statement of facts as he saw them.


You as usual see an attack where none has been made.
Lighten up, Not everyone is convinced that the catholic church (then or now) is infalable.

This isn't an attack either. Just another statement of fact as I see it.
And a heads up.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Eddie, you are correct about the pope and 666. But to believe that Jesus was married and carried on a bloodline as you described is 100% fable. If you'd like to discuss these things, the "Religion" forum would be a good place.

-Peace-

 

[lamar]

Dear Old Dog;
You don't think that THIS is discriminatory?

So the micks are all sun worshippers basically!

We were also given a clue as to the number of his name. (666).

I've seen heaps of suggestions from bar codes to chip implants - when the REAL beast is the Pope!

Common languages in use at the time of Christ?

Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek (latin).

Each had their own Gemmatria or assignatonof numerals to lettersof their respective alphabets!

Heres the REAL meaning of the number of the name in the respecyive gemmatria of all 3 languages inuse at the time the bible new testament was written.

You might want to save a copy for future reference because lamar and his vatican boss (The Beast) will do everything in their power to expunge / discredit this.
And you wrote:

And your pro catholic biases tend to do the same for the rest of us.
I saw no hatred in Eddie's post. a simple statement of facts as he saw them.


You as usual see an attack where none has been made.
Lighten up, Not everyone is convinced that the catholic church (then or now) is infalable.

This isn't an attack either. Just another statement of fact as I see it.
And a heads up.
And you don't see an attack in this If you cannot see the hatred and discrimination in just that SMALL PORTION of Fast Eddie's post then YOU HAVE SOME MAJOR PROBLEMS!
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Furness]

this is a bit late but Beausant/ Beasaunt is an Heraldic term to describe the background colours of a device, ie flag or shield, literal translation is "two colours" generally black and white,
the Templar shield was black for the upper half white for the lower half with superimposed on it (i think) the cross of saint George like Lamar's avatar, as used for the flag of Malta but they did vary dependant on where the knight was from as did the two colours some were quartered, others checkerboard like a chess board,

furness

 

[lamar]

this is a bit late but Beausant/ Beasaunt is an Heraldic term to describe the background colours of a device, ie flag or shield, literal translation is "two colours" generally black and white,
the Templar shield was black for the upper half white for the lower half with superimposed on it (i think) the cross of saint George like Lamar's avatar, as used for the flag of Malta but they did vary dependant on where the knight was from as did the two colours some were quartered, others checkerboard like a chess board,

furness

Dear furness;
No, this is incorrect my friend. The shield's separations, are known as *divisions*. The type of division that separates a shield into two equal halves with the the separation running horizontally through the middle of the shield is known as a *per fess*. In the case of the Knights Templars, if the per fess were white over black, the shield would have been described as :"Shield per fess, blanc and noir". Since it was prohibited for the Knights Templars to cover or paint their shields as per their Rule:
53. Let no brother have a cover on his shield or his lance, for it is no
advantage, on the contrary we understand that it would be very harmful.

the Knights Templers did not cover or paint their shields nor lances.

The war banner of the Knights Templars identified their position on the field during combat actions and the colors of the devices during the Medieval Age evolved into a sort of a type of elementary hereditary symbol. In the case of the Knights Templars, the war banner may be described thusly:
"Per fess, blanc-noir, cross potent (or moline) solitare, gules." This would troughly ranslate into " Horizontally divided, white over black, with a single 8 pointed cross, red colored". War banners were always one or two brightly opposed colors and divided with simple divisions. The reason for this simplicity was to aid the combatants in finding the main body of their battle unit, should they happen to become separated from the main body during battle. With many different nobles from the immediately same area fighting together on the same sides during campaigns, their heraldry overlapped and much of time a heraldic banner would be almost identical to that of the noble's neighbor, which was most likely also the noble's blood relative. Thus the reason for not using heraldic banners as war banners.

The cross of St. George is a simple 4 pointed Latin cross and it is rendered in your avatar flag as the central cross of the Union Jack. As I recall, the Union Jack is comprised of three medieval devices, the cross of St. George (England) superimposed with the cross of St. Andrew (Scotland) superimposed with the cross of St. Patrick (Ireland).

The cross utilized by the Knights Templars was of the 8 pointed variety, now known as the Maltese Cross. The 8 points represent the 8 Beatitudes. Prior to AD 1139, the Knights Templars did not utilize a cross as part of their ordinary habits or on their war banner. The wearing of a cross on their habits was sanctioned by Pope Innocent II in AD 1139, in His Papal Bull, Omne Datum Optimum (Every Good Reward). The pertinent excerpt from that Bull is translated as:
indeed having abandoned the wide path that leads towards death, you humbly chose the hard way that leads to life and in order to justify being considered among the knighthood of God you always bear on your chest the sign of the life-giving cross.

The wearing of the cross on the habits of the Knights Templars was further defined and refined in the later Papal Bull Militia Dei (Soldiers of God) written by Pope Eugenius III in AD 1145. The significance of the of the coloration of the war banners of the Knights Templar is inconclusive and over time war banners of many colors and styles were utilized throughout the Crusades. The white and black war banner seems to be the most popular of the Order's war banners, yet it was one of at least a dozen different ones used throughout the Order's existence.

The modern explanation of the meaning *Beauseant* was invented by the masons and it has absolutely no foundation in factual history. Not only are they mistaken about the meaning of *Beauseant* they also have the colors of the war banner upside-down as well. I guess no one ever accused them of historical accuracy.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Rebel - KGC]

"Google" KNIGHTS TEMPLAR CIPHERS The game of CHESS is "connected" to the SECRET TRADITIONS provided by the Knights Templar via Scottish Rite FreeMasons, like it or not lamar... warm milk & cookies? BTW, studying the "moves" in CHESS will give you EXCELLENT "clues"!

 

[Furness]

Hello Lamar,

You are correct, i had a senior BB moment there and jumped to a BB conclusion regarding the Maltese cross !,
I remembered various articles and and got them mixed up, including some modern history of the cross,

the island of Malta is known as the George cross island and is the same cross used for a military medal, IE the George cross medal , which is as you have mentioned the Maltese cross, i mixed up the cross of the Templar's with the hospitalers (the Maltese cross), but i believe that was white and sown on the left side or sleeve of their habit?
the Templar cross in the union jack and flag of England is the plain Latin cross as you describe,

i think you may have misinterpreted the orders about not covering the shield and lance with regards to it not being painted, armour was expensive, and from very early on both armour and shields were covered with a cloth or a leather covering to protect it, usually canvas coated in tallow to keep moisture and stop rust and the chain mail would also be kept this way, this was standard practice at this time all over Europe irrespective of where the knight was from and i don't think the KT would change that without the papal bull you refer to, i think this was the covering refer ed to, the order was probably referring to having it on display at all times, normally the chain mail and weapons would only be uncovered during battle or for ceremonial use, and ordinary habit or clothing worn outside of those times, especially the lance as the sleeve covering this had a wooden block in the bottom to protect the tip of the lance and make sure it was not damaged or skewer anyone by accident, when on the move most armour and weapons were generally bought up in the rear in a baggage train, looked after by the squires, and perhaps the pope wanted the colours to be more prominent when they were travelling?

as far as my own reading goes from early on the Templar's shields were white with the red Latin cross you mentioned for knights, and black with the red cross for Sergent's, also later on the two colours mentioned were supplemented by a further three, and i had assumed the black above white was the normal colour for the TK shield, but was perhaps one of the later additions to denote a Sergent who had been promoted to senior Sergent for bravery in the field?,

there is also mention that originally the Templar's in France where the KT started used the red cross, after the English knights joined they adopted the red cross as well, the french knights objected to this and letters from the two kings were sent to the pope eventually as the red cross was already being used as the English flag before the KT were started the french king agreed to change the colour of the french knights to blue, but many of the french knights objected to this (as they started the KT is understandable) and a majority refused and retained the red cross on white, thus that colour becoming the defacto colour, (it has been said the Italian knights had agreed to use yellow for their colour) as the intention was that each country would have a diffrent colour sothey could recognise their fellow country men and group they belonged to,

beauseant this is the only translation i have been able to find other than piebald ?

i agree with your french regarding the divisions, and the uses for heraldry but not knowing the french terms i stuck with the English equivalents,

most of this comes from memory of things i had read many years ago, from various magazine articles and books by a company called Osprey Publishing in their, Men at Arms Series, and are supposedly accurate and written by military historians, but like a great deal of history new evidence is uncovered all of the time by historians delving through archives, so may not be as accurate as we would like, and may be quite wrong on certain points,

Furness

 

[lamar]

Hello Lamar,

You are correct, i had a senior BB moment there and jumped to a BB conclusion regarding the Maltese cross !,
I remembered various articles and and got them mixed up, including some modern history of the cross,

the island of Malta is known as the George cross island and is the same cross used for a military medal, IE the George cross medal , which is as you have mentioned the Maltese cross, i mixed up the cross of the Templar's with the hospitalers (the Maltese cross), but i believe that was white and sown on the left side or sleeve of their habit?
the Templar cross in the union jack and flag of England is the plain Latin cross as you describe,

i think you may have misinterpreted the orders about not covering the shield and lance with regards to it not being painted, armour was expensive, and from very early on both armour and shields were covered with a cloth or a leather covering to protect it, usually canvas coated in tallow to keep moisture and stop rust and the chain mail would also be kept this way, this was standard practice at this time all over Europe irrespective of where the knight was from and i don't think the KT would change that without the papal bull you refer to, i think this was the covering refer ed to, the order was probably referring to having it on display at all times, normally the chain mail and weapons would only be uncovered during battle or for ceremonial use, and ordinary habit or clothing worn outside of those times, especially the lance as the sleeve covering this had a wooden block in the bottom to protect the tip of the lance and make sure it was not damaged or skewer anyone by accident, when on the move most armour and weapons were generally bought up in the rear in a baggage train, looked after by the squires, and perhaps the pope wanted the colours to be more prominent when they were travelling?

as far as my own reading goes from early on the Templar's shields were white with the red Latin cross you mentioned for knights, and black with the red cross for Sergent's, also later on the two colours mentioned were supplemented by a further three, and i had assumed the black above white was the normal colour for the TK shield, but was perhaps one of the later additions to denote a Sergent who had been promoted to senior Sergent for bravery in the field?,

there is also mention that originally the Templar's in France where the KT started used the red cross, after the English knights joined they adopted the red cross as well, the french knights objected to this and letters from the two kings were sent to the pope eventually as the red cross was already being used as the English flag before the KT were started the french king agreed to change the colour of the french knights to blue, but many of the french knights objected to this (as they started the KT is understandable) and a majority refused and retained the red cross on white, thus that colour becoming the defacto colour, (it has been said the Italian knights had agreed to use yellow for their colour) as the intention was that each country would have a diffrent colour sothey could recognise their fellow country men and group they belonged to,

beauseant this is the only translation i have been able to find other than piebald ?

i agree with your french regarding the divisions, and the uses for heraldry but not knowing the french terms i stuck with the English equivalents,

most of this comes from memory of things i had read many years ago, from various magazine articles and books by a company called Osprey Publishing in their, Men at Arms Series, and are supposedly accurate and written by military historians, but like a great deal of history new evidence is uncovered all of the time by historians delving through archives, so may not be as accurate as we would like, and may be quite wrong on certain points,

Furness

Dear Furness;
According to the Primitive Rule, which was written originally in Latin, the word for COVER and PAINT may be used interchangeably. The painting of shields was almost unheard of in Europe, as paint had not yet reached the stage where it could be applied to wood, metal, cloth or leather and made to last for any great length of time.

At the beginning of the Crusades, nobles brought to the Holy Land the same weapons, armor and equipment that was used throughout Europe, however this soon proved to be a disadvantage to the Crusading Franks.For example, the Franks likened to long, thin shields, called the *Kite* shield, which proved it's worth on the battle and tournament fields of Europe, yet became virtually worthless in the Middle East.

The kite shield was derived from the Norman shield, and as such it was constructed in the same manner as it's predecessor, that being a stout wooden body, framed with heavy iron. The wood provided excellent protection against missile weapons, such as arrows, javelins and lances and the heavy iron rim provided excellent protection against blunt force weapons, such as axes, maces, morning stars and flails.

The long, thin design of the kite shield was ideally suited to mounted knights and when properly utilized, was able to provide protection to the entire left side of the mounted knight. The arched top of the shield also deflected the impacts of blunt force weapons very well.

Once the Franks embarked upon campaigns in the Middle East however, the disadvantages of the kite shield became apparent. The kite was meant to be used by mounted knights and against the long lances of opposing forces, therefore it was very heavy in the body and unwieldy for use in dismounted combat.

The opposing forces in the Middle East did not have heavy cavalry as such, and thus the size and weight of the kite became disadvantagous to the Crusaders. The Arabs of the Middle East tended to shun heavy weapons, due to their diminutive size and stature and therefore they did not use blunt force weapons which were favored by most medieval armies of Europe. Fighting on foot for hours at the time, the kite shield soon became a burden to the Crusading forces, and was thus soon modified in order to become more manageable.

The kite shield then gave way to the much smaller, lighter and more much manageable shield to the dismounted knight, the *heater*. The heater shield was about 2 to 3 feet tall and about 2/3 as wide as it was tall. It sported a flat top and it was comprised of a thin wooden frame covered in leather. Unlike their predecessors, heater shields were strictly business for the Frankish Crusaders and they were seldom, if ever, adorned. Paint was difficult to apply to leather and canvas coverings only added weight to the shield.

The Crusaders also learned very quickly the concept of the *light load*. The heat they endured in the Middle Eastern environment was almost unbearable in the beginning and they soon adapted their weapons, armor and clothing to fit their enemy counterparts. Gone were the thick, heavy hauberks of Europe, the heavy and cumbersome chain mail links, the 10 pound battle axes and the maces. Their swords shrank from the 46 inch long and 3 inch wide monsters of Western Europe into the much lighter 32 inch long and 2 inch wide swords in the Holy Lands. Chain mail was lightened considerably, with thin links used in the back and sleeves, medium thickness links on the sides, with heavy links used only on the front portion to protect the vital organs. Because of the intense heat, the breathable chain mail was far superior to all other forms of armor, including leather and plate types. Also, chain mail could be easily adapted for use from one warrior to the next and because of this feature, chain mail was sort of a *one size fits all* type of personal protection.

The devices of the three major Roman Catholic military orders were as follows:
Templars-
a red 8 pointed cross, always worn on the left side of the habit or surcoat, never centered on the chest or back as is commonly depicted in modern renditions. The cloak of the Templar Knights included cowls, or hoods, for those who professed the vow of chastity and cloaks without cowls for those who did not. (ie. married knights)

Hospitallers- A white cross upon a black on brown background. Black or dark brown were the preferred habit colors of the Hospitallers. At first the Hospitallers did not wear cowls on their capes but this was changed in later times to reflect the status as the Templars.

Teutonic Knights- A black 8 pointed cross upon a white background. The Teutonic Knights always wore a white habit, styled in the same manner as the Templars, without a cowl. Again, contrary to modern depictions, the cross of the Teutonic Knights was never pointed at the bottom.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Furness;
To clarify further the types of crosses used by the various Crusader States and Orders, I am posting a rendition of all known cross variants. Also, the Cross of St. George has been classified as a Greek style cross (without the upper style crossbar) which we now know as the Latin Cross. The red Cross of St. George upon a white field is also the official flag of England, in case you were not aware, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Hello Lamar,

You are correct, i had a senior BB moment there and jumped to a BB conclusion regarding the Maltese cross !,
I remembered various articles and and got them mixed up, including some modern history of the cross,

the island of Malta is known as the George cross island and is the same cross used for a military medal, IE the George cross medal , which is as you have mentioned the Maltese cross, i mixed up the cross of the Templar's with the hospitalers (the Maltese cross), but i believe that was white and sown on the left side or sleeve of their habit?
the Templar cross in the union jack and flag of England is the plain Latin cross as you describe,

i think you may have misinterpreted the orders about not covering the shield and lance with regards to it not being painted, armour was expensive, and from very early on both armour and shields were covered with a cloth or a leather covering to protect it, usually canvas coated in tallow to keep moisture and stop rust and the chain mail would also be kept this way, this was standard practice at this time all over Europe irrespective of where the knight was from and i don't think the KT would change that without the papal bull you refer to, i think this was the covering refer ed to, the order was probably referring to having it on display at all times, normally the chain mail and weapons would only be uncovered during battle or for ceremonial use, and ordinary habit or clothing worn outside of those times, especially the lance as the sleeve covering this had a wooden block in the bottom to protect the tip of the lance and make sure it was not damaged or skewer anyone by accident, when on the move most armour and weapons were generally bought up in the rear in a baggage train, looked after by the squires, and perhaps the pope wanted the colours to be more prominent when they were travelling?

as far as my own reading goes from early on the Templar's shields were white with the red Latin cross you mentioned for knights, and black with the red cross for Sergent's, also later on the two colours mentioned were supplemented by a further three, and i had assumed the black above white was the normal colour for the TK shield, but was perhaps one of the later additions to denote a Sergent who had been promoted to senior Sergent for bravery in the field?,

there is also mention that originally the Templar's in France where the KT started used the red cross, after the English knights joined they adopted the red cross as well, the french knights objected to this and letters from the two kings were sent to the pope eventually as the red cross was already being used as the English flag before the KT were started the french king agreed to change the colour of the french knights to blue, but many of the french knights objected to this (as they started the KT is understandable) and a majority refused and retained the red cross on white, thus that colour becoming the defacto colour, (it has been said the Italian knights had agreed to use yellow for their colour) as the intention was that each country would have a diffrent colour sothey could recognise their fellow country men and group they belonged to,

beauseant this is the only translation i have been able to find other than piebald ?

i agree with your french regarding the divisions, and the uses for heraldry but not knowing the french terms i stuck with the English equivalents,

most of this comes from memory of things i had read many years ago, from various magazine articles and books by a company called Osprey Publishing in their, Men at Arms Series, and are supposedly accurate and written by military historians, but like a great deal of history new evidence is uncovered all of the time by historians delving through archives, so may not be as accurate as we would like, and may be quite wrong on certain points,

Furness

Dear furness;
To continue with the discussion, I am not aware of any historical publication called Osprey Publishing, however I can quote from the Primitive Rule (*primitive* meaning *first* or *original* in this particular sense) of the Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ. Please note that the original text was written in Latin and the attributed quote is an English translation from the original:
On the Brothers' Dress
17. We command that all the brothers' habits should always be of one colour,
that is white or black or brown. And we grant to all knight brothers in winter
and in summer if possible, white cloaks; and no-one who does not belong to the
aforementioned Knights of Christ is allowed to have a white cloak, so that
those who have abandoned the life of darkness will recognise each other as
being reconciled to their creator by the sign of the white habits: which
signifies purity and complete chastity. Chastity is certitude of heart and
healthiness of body. For if any brother does not take the vow of chastity he
cannot come to eternal rest nor see God, by the promise of the apostle who
said: Pacem sectamini cum omnibus et castimoniam sine qua nemo Deum videbit.
That is to say: 'Strive to bring peace to all, keep chaste, without which
no-one can see God.'
18. But these robes should be without any finery and without any show of
pride. And so we ordain that no brother will have a piece of fur on his
clothes, nor anything else which belongs to the usages of the body, not even a
blanket unless it is of lamb's wool or sheep's wool. We command all to have
the same, so that each can dress and undress, and put on and take off his
boots easily. And the Draper or the one who is in his place should studiously
reflect and take care to have the reward of God in all the above-mentioned
things, so that the eyes of the envious and evil-tongued cannot observe that
the robes are too long or too short; but he should distribute them so that
they fit those who must wear them, according to the size of each one.
19. And if any brother out of a feeling of pride or arrogance wishes to have
as his due a better and finer habit, let him be given the worst. And those who
receive new robes must immediately return the old ones, to be given to the
squires and sergeants and often to the poor, according to what seems good to
the one who holds that office.
On Shirts
20. Among the other things, we mercifully rule that, because of the great
intensity of the heat which exists in the East, from Easter to All Saints,
through compassion and in no way as a right, a linen shirt shalt be given to
any brother who wishes to wear it.
On Bed Linen
21. We command by common consent that each man shall have clothes and bed
linen according to the discretion of the Master. It is our intention that
apart from a mattress, one bolster and one blanket should be sufficient for
each; and he who lacks one of these may have a rug, and he may use a linen
blanket at all times, that is to say with a soft pile. And they will at all
times sleep dressed in shirt and breeches and shoes and belts, and where they
sleep shall be lit until morning. And the Draper should ensure that the
brothers are so well tonsured that they may be examined from the front and
from behind; and we command you to firmly adhere to this same conduct with
respect to beards and moustaches, so that no excess may be noted on their
bodies.

And further along we may read this Rule:

On White Mantles
68. By common counsel of all the chapter we forbid and order expulsion, for
common vice, of anyone who without discretion was in the house of God and of
the Knights of the Temple; also that the sergeants and squires should not have
white habits, from which custom great harm used to come to the house; for in
the regions beyond the mountains false brothers, married men and others who
said they were brothers of the Temple used to be sworn in; while they were of
the world. They brought so much shame to us and harm to the Order of
Knighthood that even their squires boasted of it; for this reason numerous
scandals arose. Therefore let them assiduously be given black robes; but if
these cannot be found, they should be given what is available in that
province; or what is the least expensive, that is burell.

From the Primitive Rule of the Templars we now understand that the habits of the Order were to be either white, black or brown. Please note that the word *habit* only entails the actual clothing which is worn next to the monk's skin, that being either a long shirt and breeches or a loose robe and comprised of only one of the three colors mentioned above. On the other hand, the cloak was an important part of the Templar's dress and it was deemed to always be white in color. As stated in the Rule, only *knights* (those men born of noble birth) may wear the white cloak. For all other members of the Order, the wearing of the white cloak was strictly prohibited.

Also, in Rule 68, we may plainly read that Sergeants and Squires were prohibited from wearing the white cloaks under all circumstances. It seems that at some time prior to the Rule having been written, there were those who were posing as Templars and as such, caused great harm to the Order. Therefore, sergeants and squires have never been allowed to wear the *white* of the Templar Order.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Did YOU know that that the KNIGHTS TEMPLAR gave certain "HUSH HUSH" teachings from Islamic "secret" sources to the SCOTS in Scotland... creating the SCOTTISH RITE of FREEMASONRY? And it ALSO is in the ROSY CROSS Secret Societies of ROSICRUCIANS, connected with MARTIN LUTHER? Look at the "ROSE" of MARTIN LUTHER; Look at the "ROSE" of German, French, & "BRIT" ROSICRUCIANS. It was CENTERED on the CROSS; giving the "clue" that the CROSS of "the MYSTERIES", has within it the "Teachings", BOTH of the SPIRITUAL/Religious kind (CATHOLIC/PROTESTANT), and SECULAR/SCIENTIFIC. Starting with the SCIENTISTS, who were ALSO Alchemists/FreeMasons/Rosicrucians. Do yer OWN R & I (Research & Investigations), and FIND OUT! Coffee?

 

[lamar]

Did YOU know that that the KNIGHTS TEMPLAR gave certain "HUSH HUSH" teachings from Islamic "secret" sources to the SCOTS in Scotland... creating the SCOTTISH RITE of FREEMASONRY? And it ALSO is in the ROSY CROSS Secret Societies of ROSICRUCIANS, connected with MARTIN LUTHER? Look at the "ROSE" of MARTIN LUTHER; Look at the "ROSE" of German, French, & "BRIT" ROSICRUCIANS. It was CENTERED on the CROSS; giving the "clue" that the CROSS of "the MYSTERIES", has within it the "Teachings", BOTH os the SPIRITUAL/Religious kind (CATHOLIC/PROTESTANT), and SECULAR/SCIENTIFIC. Starting with the SCIENTISTS, who were ALSO Alchemists/FreeMasons/Rosicrucians. Do yer OWN R & I (Research & Investigations), and FIND OUT! Coffee?

Dear Rebel-KGC;
I am quite certain that all of that is very entertaining, however I tend to stick strictly to the *historical facts* of the matter. I like to leave the *made up facts* to the story tellers, my friend. In short, if there is NO HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED PROOF, then it did not happen.
Your friend;
LAMAR