what are these from ( SOLVED!)

[NGE]

These things (caps?) are found all over the place here in Michigan. Anytime you find one, keep hunting that park or field or island. Something was going on at least 100 or more years ago. They are made of aluminum, most are 1/2 inch diameter on the open end, if not smashed, they are 1/4 inch tall, the look like large caliber thin aluminum pellets, we also thought opium bottle caps, some of these are 3/4 inch in diameter, and have a rubber seal around the narrow waist part of them. We have searched available patent materials and pictures, typed in all kinds of "key words" and still can't figure out what they are. Many kudo's to whoever can find anything about these things......... notgittinenny

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: what are these from

SBB-- If I remember right, aluminum was fairly expensive to use until they found bauxite and learned how to process it for aluminum..........1920's seems to stick in my mind, but don't put money on it. I have watched your research and admire your efforts.

Yes early aluminum was extremely expensive I heard that too.

Keep up the research Bob because I give up.

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

Cy ~

I have done extensive research over the years on bottle closures, and even have a thread on the subject on another forum that has received over 5,000 hits/views. But I have never, ever seen a closure like this. Which causes me to question my own theory. But then, until today I never fully researched "candy containers" However, the websites I access cover just about everything. And yet, still nothing like this that I am presently aware of for a bottle.

~ * ~

High Plains Digger ~

Thanks. But I admit I am as confused about this so called "cap" as everyone else is. It's definitely something, and apparently common. But what it actually is, is still a mystery!

Regarding "screw caps," they couldn't have been all that expensive, as they were being used on various bottles in the late 1800s. I believe I have an example of one I will post just as soon as I can find it.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

It's been about a year since I worked on that other forum thread I referred to, and I had all but forgotten about "Zinc" closures that most of you will be familiar with and were used on early Mason-type" canning jars. These zinc lids were some of the earliest, and may be what our mystery item is made of. But at the moment I can't recall how to distinguish the difference between zinc and aluminum. I know aluminum is non magnetic, but I'm not sure about zinc.

Anyway, shown below are examples of both. The first bottle has a zinc screw cap and was patented in 1876. (Called a Newman's). The second bottle has an aluminum screw cap and is from the 1920s.

Here's a little more info regarding all of this ...

By about 1920, machines dominated the production of bottles. The higher levels of precision attainable with automatic bottle machines and the adoption of industry-wide standards for external thread finishes and metal screw cap closures between 1919 and 1924 spelled the end of cork as the dominant closure typ. Externally threaded bottles probably dominated the market by the late 1920s with cork sealed bottles becoming increasing more uncommon after that date with the exception of wine bottles, many liquor bottles, and bottles sealed with the revolutionary crown caps.

~ * ~

I realize this is slightly off topic. I include it mainly to illustrate that aluminum caps - seals - etc; were fairly common by the 1920s, which is when our mystery item may have originated from. But unless I am mistaken, I don't believe it's been determined yet just exactly what the item is made of - zinc - aluminum - or metal? I realize they are not rusted away, but determining their content may be a clue.

SBB

[ 1870s and 1920s caps - zinc and aluminum ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

This next phase is not to suggest that everyone jump on my Candy Container Wagon, as it is still too early to say one way or another. But if you think it is worth looking into, and like doing patent searches, I have found some key patent words that should help. Which are ...

~ Candy Containing Novelty ~

I have found more of the older type of glass candy containers under this heading than any other. The patent numbers to look for will likely fall in the 400,000's to about the 2,500,000's range, which generally cover the late 1800s to about the 1940s.

Patent searches are not a whole lot of fun, and take a considerable amount of time. This is strictly for those with the necessary time and interest.

I have only looked at a couple of them so far, with numerous to go. But no "metal inserts" yet that I could see.

As time allows I will continue to look into this area, and will be sure to let you know if I find "anything of interest."

SBB

 

[SwampCreek]

Re: what are these from

Found this site on bottle closures.... not sure how helpful it will be.
http://www.sha.org/bottle/closures.htm

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

SwampCreek ~

You hit the nail on the head! That's the number one bottle identification site in the entire world. I have communicated with it's creator and various contributers numerous times. They have even credited me for finding the earliest "Crown Closure" soda bottle known to exist. The crown top (cap) was invented in 1892 by a William Painter. The bottle information I contributed to that organization is the one shown below by ...

"Murdock & Freeman"

Portland, Maine - 1895

They are supposed to include it in one of their upcoming articles, but it has not been completed yet that I know of. And just for the record, the bottle was actually discovered by another individual who apparently didn't realize what he had, or how early it was, until participating in a subject of discussion that I started. So we actually shared the credit.

By the way, that bottle site is so extensive it usually takes weeks to read through it.

SBB

[ Murdock & Freeman - 1895 - Earliest known "Crown Top" bottle - Confirmed ]

(This is my personal example that I found on e-bay for $20.00)

 

[Roger Mn.]

Re: what are these from

Didn't the old paint rollers have a cap on the end.
Anybody got some real old paint rollers laying around ?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

I was going to keep this to myself for awhile just in case I was able to find something more substantial. But I will go ahead and share it now. It is one of several varieties of ...

~ Carnival Pop Guns ~

This particular pop gun is in the form of a cane, and was a popular prize given out at carnivals and fairs. From what little research I have done on these so far, some of them apparently shot out a "pellet" of some type, but which had very little force behind them. I'm wondering if our mystery item is one of those pellets? If so, that might explain the concave design and rubber gasket for allowing the compression feature to work. Not to mention so many of them laying around.

The only bummer is, I can't find anything to support this new theory of mine, nor a picture of one of those so called pellets. So if you are game, check these out and see what you can find that I couldn't.

Please be reminded that this is still in the "Guessing" phase.

And that most pop guns had a string and used a cork!

SBB

{{{{{{ "POP!" }}}}}}

 

[foundinrolls]

Re: what are these from

They could be percussion caps used as a part of the rifles at the shooting galleries found at carnivals.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

What are those odd looking metal things laying on the ground in this 1910 carnival photo?

Sorry folks, I couldn't help myself. Besides, I'm calling it quits, too. This one will have to get solved without me. I have exhausted my research time and wandered down blind alleys with nothing to show for my efforts except a bunch of theories and hot air balloons. Oh well, I tried!

Thanks for letting me tag along. It was fun while it lasted.

Good Luck!

SBB



By the way, a couple of those kids are holding what were referred to as "Barkers" or "Carnival Canes" which were a popular prize given out at carnivals. I wonder what kind of tips those canes had?

 

[trikikiwi]

Re: what are these from

I also realise now, having seen the one with the rubber, we are looking at PLUGS not CAPS - but I'm still

On second thoughts - How about stoppers for helium balloons??
Mike

History repeats

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Re: what are these from

Anyone remember the old carnival machine guns? They are air powered and were loaded with a tube of bbs. Is it at all possible that these are caps for those tubes?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

notgittinenny ~

Although I have thrown the towel in on this one, I thought I would leave you with a few closing comments. If in fact the items are carnival/fair/circus/amusement related as you and others suggest, then I am hopeful it will eventually get solved. But if the carnival connection is pure coincidence, then it could be a lot tougher job to identify them. The one thing more than anything else that strikes me as odd, and may be a clue, is the fact that every single one of them is dented and/or beat up looking. There has to be a logical explaination for this. For some reason they were abused, which suggest forceful removal to me. And I don't mean the type of removal/abuse that would result from someone using their hands. More than likely the dents were caused by the use of a "tool" of some kind like a screwdriver or pliers. If there is any credence whatsoever to what I suggest here, I recommend to future researchers to keep this "tool removal" aspect in mind. It may lead to other clues and eventually to a final identification. I also believe they are some type of common ...

Gasketed Plug / Insert

... and that they may not necessarily be related to a carnival "prize" at all, but rather to some other aspect of carnival "set up" - "operation" - "maintenance" - etc. And then again, they may not be carnival related at all. If this proves to be the case, then I am even more boggled that I was before.

Additionally, and just in case you continue future research along the lines of "carnival prize," here is a link to a site that has for sale a CD presentation of a 1931, 264 page "Carnival Prize Suppliers Catalog." I think it cost about $12.00 and may contain something that will assit you.

Good luck. I will continue to follow this thread with interest.

SBB

CD 1931 Carnival Catalog Link: http://www.vintageliterature.ca/pd-1931-kindel-graham-carnival-novelty-toy-catalog-on-cd.cfm

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

I don't have time to fully research this new idea of mine, but thought I would post it for others who might. I didn't go back and re-read every post, so I apologize if this has already been suggested. It involves the possibility of the plugs being some kind of helium tank seal (as a backup under a threaded cap) to prevent the leakage of helium from the tanks when not in use. I already checked and helium balloons were definitely in use by the turn of the century and likely even earlier. I don't know the exact dates. This might explain the rubber seal and their being found in such abundance and scattered around various locations where carnivals and fairs were held. They may have been pried loose and then just tossed aside.

Search Suggestion: "Antique Helium Tank / Seal"

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

Notgettinenny ~

I hope you don't mind, but now it's my turn to ask for a little help. In my last post I suggested "Helium Tank." Okay, fine. Except when I started looking for antique helium tanks/cylinders, I couldn't find a single one. And yet I just know they filled those balloons from something. All the evidence points to it.

Whenever I search anything related to "Antique Helium Cylinders" I keep getting redirected to the "Glass Flask" pictured below. But surely carnivals and circuses didn't pack those fragile things around with them ... or did they?

I realize this may be another wild goose chase, but just to humor me and hopefully make some sense of this, I sure could use some help determining ...

"Just what the heck they actually used at the turn of the century to store helium?"

For those interested in this little side-topic of mine, please be prepared to see other terms related to this, which are ...

Reagent and Nobel Gases

Here's a link to get you started, and is where I got the first picture below:

http://www.theodoregray.com/periodictable/Samples/002.2/index.s12.html


Quote from website;

"At the bottom where the flask meets the tube, there is a tiny inner breakaway seal."

Thanks.



SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

Part of the reason I can't find anything under "Antique Helium Cylinder" may in part be due to the following quote I stumbled onto ...

"In 1824, scientist Michael Faraday invented the first rubber balloon when he was experimenting with hydrogen, but it was JG Ingram who produced the template for the party balloons we have today."

~ * ~

Rubber balloons as we know them today were first manufactured by J.G. Ingram of London in 1847. Hydrogen was originally used by Faraday to inflate balloons. Hydrogen brought play and joy to the balloon world, but it also brought an equal or greater amount of danger. Hydrogen easily explodes and catches fire. It didn't take long before rubber balloons were being sold for a penny a piece at carnivals, circuses and parks in America. Hydrogen was eventually replaced by helium, a non-flammable gas. Although hydrogen had one-tenth more lifting power, helium was much safer making it possible for balloons to have a variety of uses. It is said that The Toy Balloon Company of New York in the 1920’s released 50,000 helium filled balloons at one time, each printed with an advertiser’s name and bore a tag which offered a prize to the finder.

I will let you know if I find anything under ...

"Turn-of-the-century hydrogen cylinder"

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

I hope nobody minds my ongoing research involving "Carnival Balloons." My intention here is to stick with it until the fat lady sings! The main idea is to see if I can find out what one of those old cylinders looked like. I am 100% certain they had "floating" carnival type ballons at the turn of the century, and that they sold for a penny. But why is it I can find dozens of pictures and references to "Balloon Vendors," and yet not a single thing related to the gas and/or the tanks those vendors used to fill their balloons? And we just know they filled them with and from "something." But what?

Anyway, I'll keep looking and hopefully find something eventually. The best I have been able to come up with so far is shown in the picture below. Which is some kind of wooden barrell apparatus for creating hydrogen and filling huge balloons. But surely a typical carnival vendor didn't rely on something like that.

I'll be back!

SBB

 

[Roger Mn.]

Re: what are these from

This cap I'm showing is magnetic..
Your caps may have been used in the same way.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

Reminder: As most of you know by now, (and I can hear you laughing as I write this) my ongoing research is primarily focused on trying to find a picture of a late 1800s to early 1900s hydrogen/helium cylinder like those used by penny balloon vendors at carnivals and country fairs during that time period. Which you'd think would be an easy task. But as it turns out, the earliest picture I can find is from the 1950s. And that just won't do as far as I'm concerned! I know they used something, and I am determined to find one. So please bare with me just a little longer. And if this is driving you bonkers, you should try walking in my shoes for a little while. It's driving me totally nuts! It's one thing to try and identify something that you don't have a clue about, but something altogether different to try and find something that you know exist, but can't find!

Anyway, I have actually been making some progress. I know now that the earliest possible date for a true "pressurized gas cylinder" is 1886. So that at least narrows it down a little.

Hopefully next time I will have a picture for you.

Thanks to everyone for not yelling at me! Lol

SBB

The first “cylinders” were animal bladders used in the 18th century to contain gases as they were studied in laboratories. The method was slightly upgraded with gas bags made of oiled textile or silk with gilt paint. The first glimpse of cylinders as we know them today came from Germany in 1886, when Max and Reinhard Mannesmann developed a production method for manufacturing seamless steel tubes by extrusion. The method was soon adapted to the manufacture of gas cylinders, marking a significant step toward the dawn of the industrial gas business.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

~ Ongoing Research / Update ~



( and just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water )

I'm really starting to think I'm on a wild-goose-chase here. And yet I just can't seem to shake the idea that ...

The "plugs" are some kind of "seal" for something "industrial." Possibly even "welding" related.

And by "industrial" I mean something like the "helium/hydrogen" tanks I have been talking about. Were it not for the "rubber" aspect to the plugs, I would probably ditch this whole crazy idea of mine and move on to something else. But for some weird reason I am convinced they were used as either a "safety" or "dust" seal, and then removed later and tossed away. But finding evidence to support this, and proving it, has been impossible so far.

Anyway, here is some additional information I found and, if nothing else, may be of interest on a educational/historical level.

1888 ~ Patent applied for on device that bores out solid steel stock to create totally seamless tubes/cylinders. Which soon develop into the pressurized cylinders we are familiar with today. Patented by German Brothers Max and Reinhard Mannesmann. (See patent illustration below - Dated September 18, 1888).

1902 ~ First U.S. seamless steel cylinders produced by the Harrisburg Steel Company of Pennsylvania.

1904 ~ Anheuser-Busch Brewing uses Harrisburg cylinders at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair to "tap" beer with carbon dioxide from wooden kegs. (First time this tapping process is used - and where the term "taproom" originated).

So there you have it - I'm thinking our "mystery plugs" had something to do with the above.

I also sent out several e-mail inquiries to various industries to see if they can be of help. I hope to hear back from them this coming week.

Thanks again for your patience with me. And just think how I will feel when I eventually discover that all of my research has been for nothing. Oh well, it was fun and a learning experience if nothing else.

I am determined to figure out what kind of tanks those balloon vendors used!

SBB

1st Pic ..... Cropped close up of plug w/rubber seal.

2nd Pic ... 1888 Patent. Red arrow indicates 5-inch cylinder
diameter. This was a major process and changed the world of
pressurized gases.

3rd Pic .... Misc. cylinders - One of the pictures shows the boring process of
red-hot stock steel.