what are these from ( SOLVED!)

[NGE]

These things (caps?) are found all over the place here in Michigan. Anytime you find one, keep hunting that park or field or island. Something was going on at least 100 or more years ago. They are made of aluminum, most are 1/2 inch diameter on the open end, if not smashed, they are 1/4 inch tall, the look like large caliber thin aluminum pellets, we also thought opium bottle caps, some of these are 3/4 inch in diameter, and have a rubber seal around the narrow waist part of them. We have searched available patent materials and pictures, typed in all kinds of "key words" and still can't figure out what they are. Many kudo's to whoever can find anything about these things......... notgittinenny

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: what are these from

These are mostly found where an old amusement or carnival grounds were once at, or within 20 miles of.

You found them 20 miles from a carnival site?

Could you tell us how many different places these were found and how many were carnival sites?

Also more pictures may help. We need help thats for sure lol.

How many total have you found? How many in one small area?

Are you sure they are aluminum?

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

I just this minute received a reply from a lady named Carole who works for a major U.S. cylinder manufacturing company. Her comments are in regards to my primary question, which in part was ...

What type of helium cylinders did carnival balloon vendors use between 1900 and 1920?

Here's her reply that I just received ...

"There is an answer to your question. I will send it to you on Monday. Don’t give up hope."

Carole

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

I heard back from that cylinder company today. They even sent me links to various balloon websites, which I intend to contact eventually. I sent pictures of the "plugs" to the cylinder people - they are looking at them now. Maybe they will have some ideas and/or guesses for us. They are located in New York state.

The information they sent me is so extensive, it may take me a day or two to decipher everything. But one thing I can tell you is that "Helium" was not used in the United States until 1903. Prior to that, flamable hydrogen was used in penny balloons. (Can you imagine?). At present there is no eveidence to suggest that the plugs are cylinder related. But I suppose the jury is still out on that until further notice.

Shown below are some cool pictures from that companies website, one of which shows a wagon load of cylinders from around the turn of the century. No close ups yet of those super-early tanks, but we are working on that.

I'll be back.

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: what are these from

At present there is no eveidence to suggest that the plugs are cylinder related. But I suppose the jury is still out on that until further notice.

There may not even be any evidence to suggest the plugs are carnival related. Quote (found) "within 20 miles of " (a carnival). Im waiting for an explanation.

 

[Mich. Wolverine]

Re: what are these from

I live in north eastern lower MI. and have found 100's of these things and would like to know what they are. Two years ago I found around 100 of them in 100 yard area where they took out 4 old buildings. There was never a carnival in this place and the caps are not from bottles. I have never found one with anything inside like a seal or glass. My fire insurance maps only go to 1910 and I think they are a little past that time frame. My feeling is they were a one time use like a cap to protect something during shipping. Thank's to everyone for the taking the time to try and solve this.

Wolverine.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: what are these from

I live in north eastern lower MI. and have found 100's of these things and would like to know what they are. Two years ago I found around 100 of them in 100 yard area where they took out 4 old buildings. There was never a carnival in this place and the caps are not from bottles. I have never found one with anything inside like a seal or glass. My fire insurance maps only go to 1910 and I think they are a little past that time frame. My feeling is they were a one time use like a cap to protect something during shipping. Thank's to everyone for the taking the time to try and solve this.

Wolverine.

Some pics would be cool and it might help.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

notgittinenny ~

An engineer at one of the cylinder manufactures I contacted took a look at the picture I sent them and suggested the "plugs" might have been something tapped into the end of a standard half-inch pipe to prevent anything from getting inside until it was used. The engineer did admit he had never seen anything quite like it, but suggested you try it anyway. Tap one of them with the seal still on it into a pipe and see how well it fits. Use either a standard 1/2" copper or galvanized pipe. If it fits perfectly, it just may be a clue that will lead to other clues.

This might explain why "hundreds" of them are found at some locations - and were just tossed away without a second thought.

Most of us are familar with those plastic "thread protectors" like we see nowadays on pipe at places like Home Deopt and elsewhere. Maybe the plugs are something along those lines, but were intended to go on the "inside" of the pipe instead of the outside.

It might be worth a try. And if not 1/2" - try 5/8"

Thanks.

SBB

[ Examples of modern protective caps and plugs - external and internal ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

notgettinany ~

I stumbled onto this patent illustration today while searching for something else and thought it might fit the ticket for your plug things. If this is in fact what they are, it might explain why so many of them can be found in places like carnival sites, etc. Based on the patent illustration below and the accompanying text that was associated with it, these "bottle seals" had rubber gaskets and, although uncommon, no doubt had a certain popularity around the turn of the century. There were dozens if not hundreds of such bottle closures that came and went over the years. It was typical with many patents to revise them before putting them into practical use. Notice the various shapes on the illustration. I'll do some additional research and see what else I can find regarding them.

In the meantime, all you have to do is enter the patent number 541203 in the search box of your favorite Patent Site, and you can read the details regarding these particular bottle seals.

Google Patents Link: http://www.google.com/patents

Later.

SBB

Patented ~ 1895

 

[Breezie]

Re: what are these from

I can't believe I just read this post for the first time. They look to be the solid aluminum antibiotic caps, and were probably used extensively on the ponies at the pony ride. (Those poor ponies walking in a circle for hours upon hours day after day. ) Breezie

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

These are mostly found where an old amusement or carnival grounds were once at, or within 20 miles of. I am the only person to have found one with a number on the inside of the cap, it is '95 ( 1895? ) but that is inside one of the larger ones. I will try to get some natural daylight pics...... Larry

notgittinenny ~

I did some additional research on my bottle seal theory, part of which included being reminded of your clue above regarding the number '95'

Included here is a cropped image of the patent I posted earlier showing that it is dated 1895. But whether this is a connection or coincidence, I will let you be the judge.

I also found the following on Tod Von Mechow's Historic Bottle Website. If it post properly it will allow you to take a closer look at some examples of "Beer Bottles" that used this type of closure. You can click on where it says "Occurs on 22 bottles" to see details on each one. And to see them grouped together, click on the little box with lines in it that represents a "Bottle Display Shelf."

But of particular interest is the "Red X" that pulls up a map showing where these particular types of closures (seals) were most popular ... which was in the North Eastern part of the United States. Also of special interest is the "Pabst Beer" location in the Milwalkee, Wisconsin area. Which I believe is close to where you live and the caps were found. Of course, they likely could have been found almost anywhere.

[ From Tod Von Mechow Site ]

Aluminum Seal Closure, circa: 1895-1903, Occurs on 22 bottles,
Invented by: Robert Allison Hall,
American Patent: June 18, 1895, Number: 541,203,

This stopper was mainly used in the metro Baltimore area and was a competitor to William Painter's Bottle Seal closure. However, unlike the Bottle Seal there were two sizes as seen on some of quart sized bottles. The groove on the inside of the lip is very close to the top and is not as angular as the Bottle Seal. Painter successfully sued Hall in 1903 and won.

Website Link: Bottle Closures Section:
http://www.sodasandbeers.com/SABBottleClosuresBeer.htm



The pictures below are as follows ...

1. Cropped image showing 1895 patent date.
2. Cropped picture of one of your "caps."
3. Cropped image of "seal" from patent showing similarity to your cap.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

Since the individual links didn't post properly, just go to the one that did and then scroll down to the 13th closure where you will find the closure in question. Once there you will be able to click on the links I referred to of the "Bottle Shelf" and "Map."

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

P.S.

notgettinenny ~

I thought it might be a good idea to send Tod Von Mechow the three pictures from my post #109 and see what he has to say about them, and possibly solve this mystery once and for all. But, unfortunately, I could not find a contact email for him. So if you or anyone else happens to know Tod or can find a contact address for him, either send him the pictures yourself or give the contact address to me and I will be happy to contact him personally.

SBB

P.S. ~ P.S.

I just found this address and will be sending him the pictures and information shortly. I will let you know just as soon as I hear back from him. But whether that will be one day or one week, I can't say. Just trust that I will share whatever he has to say.

Bob

Tod Von Mechow email: [email protected].

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: what are these from

I havent read it all yet but it looks as if Bob may have it solved if the size is right. Are they smaller than a dime? How are they opened?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

I havent read it all yet but it looks as if Bob may have it solved if the size is right. Are they smaller than a dime? How are they opened?

Big Cy ~

Happy Holidays ...

Regarding your questions, perhaps notgettinenny will eventually see this and be able to tell us the exact measurements on his mystery caps. But I do know he said there were two different sizes and it was the larger one that had the '95 on it.

As for the standard size of the bottle closures that might have used this type of seal, I'm not sure and am hopeful that Tod Von Mechow will be able to tell us, if and when I hear back from him, which I have not as yet.

I primarily collect "crown closure" soda bottles, which would not have used an interior seal. And of the various types of "blob tops," including the Hutchinson Excelsior bottle from my collection shown below, the interior measures 12/16" (3/4"). A dime fits into it nicely at the top, but does not fall all the way in because the interior of the neck tapers and gets smaller.

The Pabst bottle pictured below is from Tod Von Mechow's website and is a more typical "blob top" like that which would have used an interior seal. I don't have a true blob top in my collection, so I am not sure of their standard closure measurements, but suspect they are quite similar to the Hutchinson closures in size.

Again, I'm hopeful that Tod Von Mechow will be able to either confirm or refute my bottle seal theory, but whether I ever hear back from him is the $64.00 question.

In the meantime I plan to re-read the patent info on the bottle seal and see if it says anything about sizes and measurements.

And as to how this type of seal was opened, my next post will show one type of opener that very likely could have been used.

SBB

Pictures ...

1. Excelsior "Hutchinson" Bottle from my collection ... (12/16") 3/4" interior of neck.
2. Pabst "Blob" Bottle from Tod's website. Measurements unknown, but said to be the
type which would have used an "interior seal."

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

Here's one type of bottle opener that "might" have been used to remove an "interior seal cap" like the one in question. But please note this is speculative and has not been confirmed. Also note that the patent date for the opener is 1894, which is just one year prior to the seal patent of 1895. Thus my reason for suspecting it could have been used to "pry" the seal loose.

However, every reference I know of regarding this type of opener with the little "hook" on the end indicates it had a dual use ~ one to open Crown caps ~ and the other to remove what was known as a "Loop Seal" closure. Loop Seals were made of rubber and had a little wire poking out from the top that formed a loop.

SBB

1. Opener Patent 1894.
2. Seal Patent 1895.
3. Illustration from a turn-of-the-century bottler's magazine.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

I read through the five pages of text on the Bottle Sealing Device patent #541,203 and found some interesting information ... especially on page 2 ~ starting with sentence number 42 where it states ...

"For securing the prime objects of my invention, the hollow metallic plug, however it may be varied in form, is provided with a peripheral packing ring, or gasket ..."

Elsewhere in the text I found the following miscellanea ...

"Strong but ductile sheet metal"

"Ductile - expandable - stretched - attenuated"

"Bottles should be specially constructed - bottle interiors vary"

"May be relied upon for engagement by a forked bottle opener, capable of operating as a lever, for tilting and wrenching the plug from its sealing position"

"Coated with odorless matter, such as parifine or shellac for avoiding corrosive action"

"I have produced plugs of aluminum, and of course they do not require any special coating"

~ * ~

Overall it states that the sealing plugs came in various sizes and were designed to be inserted into the bottle with a gasket, and then in some manner "expanded" so as to insure a tight fit, (However, it did not specify how this "expansion" was achieved) and then were easily removed by prying and/or wrenching them out with a suitable opener.

The more I research these plugs, the more convinced I become that that's what notgettinenny's mystery items are.

~ * ~

notgettinenny ~

Do your plugs show any evidence of ever being coated with parifine wax or shellac?

~ * ~

The picture below is from notgettinenny's post #14 and shows one of the plugs with it's rubber gasket. The "fluted" aspect around the exterior could have to do with a "expansion" characteristic.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

P.S. ~

The next phase of my research involves trying to find a "Forked" Bottle Opener ... which I have never seen or heard of, and not even sure if such a device was ever invented.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

During my search for a forked bottle opener, I found this, which I consider to be a significant find. The information connected it to the 1895 patent we have been discussing ... which shows the same patent date and surely is a "variation" seal/plug of some kind by the same inventor, but one that is not illustrated on the original patent. I suspect this particular seal was revised, and that the little holes were added to make it easier to remove from the bottle. (I can think of no other logical reason for the holes). It is described as being "one inch" in diameter, which is approximately the size of a quarter. So it was either intended to be used on larger bottles, or else a portion of it hung over the lip of a standard bottle, thus allowing it to be removed more easily. (Speculative and Inconclusive).

Actual description ...

"This is a really nice and quite rare seal closure that is marked "Sultan NO. 1 Pat. June 18 '95" and appears to be in unused condition. Based on the Patent date research it appears this stopper was mainly used in the Metro Baltimore area and it was invented by Robert Allison Hall who was sued by a competitor in 1903. The use of this closure was short lived and this is a great go with for your Baltimore area beer bottle collection. It measures approximately 1 inch across and it is in nice unused condition."

~ * ~


Additionally, I found the bottle openers pictured at the bottom, which are described as being "pre-prohibition," and are the only type of openers from that period I could find that even come close to being "forked." Obviously this type of opener would have been used edgewise, and may very well be what the inventor of the sealing device meant when he said "forked."

I just wish I would hear from Tod Von Mechow. I believe he's an expert on bottle closures and seals and possibly could resolve this in nothing flat. I even gave him the link to this thread and invited him to comment ... but no word from him yet!

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

Eureka!

I recently contacted and just heard back from a bottle closure expert by the name of David Graci. He even has a book on the subject (pictured below) that I intend to order a copy of later today. David was a great help and sent me the following pictures from his personal collection. He agrees that notgettinenny's items, which have been in question since 2008, are in fact "Hall Bottle Seals." Hall was sued in 1903 by William Painter, the crown cap patentee, for infringment of Painter's other patented closure, the Baltimore Loop, causing Hall to quit production.

In his message to me, David stated that he would like to purchase about a half dozen of the "seals" (if available) and that he would like a sampling of the various sizes. He can be contacted through his website where his email information can be found at the bottom of his home page. Here's his website link ...

http://www.hutchbook.com/Collecting Bottle Books Graci Closures/Default.htm



A personal "Thank You" goes out to David Graci for his valuable assistance. I highly recommend his book to everyone. It can be ordered through his website.

Now for the really fun part. (And unless someone wishes to refute the claim, I'd say the mystery is solved). Check out these pictures ... (Courtesy of David Graci).

1. Hall Bottle Seal pic 1
2. Hall Bottle Seal pic 2
3. Hall Bottle Seal / Variation (same as the one I posted earlier).
4. David's Book
5. notgettinenny's "cap"

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Re: what are these from

notgettinenny ~

Here is David Graci's email address. He would like to hear from you about buying some of your seals.

email: [email protected]