WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

[releventchair]

Warehouses in Lynchburg, Va. were for TOBACCO, only; some are STILL used as Biz Offices. One old warehouse collapsed, last year... bricks went for $50.00 a brick; own a piece of Lynchburg, Va. HISTORY!

Thomas Roundtree 1820.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pearidger/history/gdspmoor.shtml

William P. Long ran a gin 1830's.
Not sure when Granberry began dealings with cotton.
A Guide to the George C. Granberry Cashbook and Cotton Book, 1858-1869 George C. Granberry Cashbook and Cotton Book, 1858-1869 1097532

 

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[Old Silver]

Old Silver,is there any purpose to your constant unrelenting bagering of me for proof?
Others have stated their "theories"opinions on this thread without proof, without you singling them out.
I,along with others on this thread, HAVE presented the reasons for our opinions based on our research into the Beale story-from dime novel to Poe to Freemason Freehold to Lafitte,CSA treasury,etc-and all "theories" are welcome and will be explored.
BigScoop and Tat have provided me with different leads to follow,and while I may disagree with some,their insight is always welcome.
Instead of your constant asking for proof from others,why not post your own theory,opinion,or belief concerning the Beale treasure story.Your thoughts would be welcome.
After all,arn't we all searching for the truth behind this tale of treasure?

Yes, but others have not stated their "theories" opinions on this thread without proof, without YOU singling them out. That's why I say that if YOU always require proof, then you will be required to offer proof as well. I have no problem with your opinions, but you have always had a problem with other people here, so let's be fair.

 

[The Enigmatist]

Can anyone 100% verify who George Hart was? In the Hart Papers, George Hart says he's the brother of Clayton Hart, and yet a check of genealogical records going back to 1880 does not indicate George ever existed. Clayton was born 1876/1877 and appears with his parents on the 1880, 1900 and 1910 censuses (the 1890 Census was burned and doesn't exist), and as a single gent on 1920 and 1930 censuses. His mother had a very peculiar first name; "Pluma", and his father; Henry Hart was a local doctor, so as a family they are very easy to spot in the census records....however George, the alleged brother, never appears once in these same records. In 1880, the following Hart siblings appear; Artie, Luserne, Lena, Della, Clayton, William and these same people show up later. A 6 yr old George W. Hart appears in the 1900 census but he is listed as the nephew of Clayton- NOT the brother. George says he lived in Washington D.C. in 1920 but there are no records. Can anyone verify who he was, and if so, what are you supplying as proof?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Can anyone 100% verify who George Hart was? In the Hart Papers, George Hart says he's the brother of Clayton Hart, and yet a check of genealogical records going back to 1880 does not indicate George ever existed. Clayton was born 1876/1877 and appears with his parents on the 1880, 1900 and 1910 censuses (the 1890 Census was burned and doesn't exist), and as a single gent on 1920 and 1930 censuses. His mother had a very peculiar first name; "Pluma", and his father; Henry Hart was a local doctor, so as a family they are very easy to spot in the census records....however George, the alleged brother, never appears once in these same records. In 1880, the following Hart siblings appear; Artie, Luserne, Lena, Della, Clayton, William and these same people show up later. A 6 yr old George W. Hart appears in the 1900 census but he is listed as the nephew of Clayton- NOT the brother. George says he lived in Washington D.C. in 1920 but there are no records. Can anyone verify who he was, and if so, what are you supplying as proof?

GREAT question... looking into it, now.

 

[ECS]

Yes, but others have not stated their "theories" opinions on this thread without proof, without YOU singling them out. That's why I say that if YOU always require proof, then you will be required to offer proof as well. I have no problem with your opinions, but you have always had a problem with other people here, so let's be fair.

My first post on this thread I stated my premise for my opinion,very clear and very concise.
You make the claim that I "have always had a problem with other people here"-so I ask,what other people?
If questioning and debating a point posted is a problem,what is the point of dialog?
I have requested that you post your theory concerning the Beale tale,but you rather play arbiter when none is required.

 

[Old Silver]

My first post on this thread I stated my premise for my opinion,very clear and very concise.
You make the claim that I "have always had a problem with other people here"-so I ask,what other people?
If questioning and debating a point posted is a problem,what is the point of dialog?
I have requested that you post your theory concerning the Beale tale,but you rather play arbiter when none is required.

You have not played the skeptic on Treasurenet? Maybe you are using a user name that someone else once had. if that's the case, then I apologize.

I'm not sure I have an actual theory on the Beale tale. I like to think that at least the two un-deciphered code papers are real, even if they are a hoax. It would be nice to know what they say, even if it's, "HA HA, I GOTCHA." Who knows. It's fun talking about it though.

 

[ECS]

More so as a devil's advocate-I do not accept a treasure story at face value,but look into the history,as others do,to discover its source.My iconoslastic approach is not intened to offend,but to inform.
I am ECS and I approve this message.

 

[Old Silver]

More so as a devil's advocate-I do not accept a treasure story at face value,but look into the history,as others do,to discover its source.My iconoslastic approach is not intened to offend,but to inform.
I am ECS and I approve this message.

Every good treasure does their research. That's not the issue.

 

[The Enigmatist]

Thought you might like that one Reb! After reading the "Hart Papers" for the ga-zillionth time it is plainly obvious the author, at least the narrative (not the seance portion), was mimicking the writing style of the original Papers...the question is why...which then prompted a look into George L. Hart...and I can't find him unless he is actually "Luserne" in the records but who went by George. I've also read many times that both brothers were 32nd or 33rd degree Masons? If so, at what Lodge(s)?

 

[The Enigmatist]

I believe that the "Luserne" in the census is George...just using his middle name. I would love to know his (and Clayton's) Lodge affiliation.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Thought you might like that one Reb! After reading the "Hart Papers" for the ga-zillionth time it is plainly obvious the author, at least the narrative (not the seance portion), was mimicking the writing style of the original Papers...the question is why...which then prompted a look into George L. Hart...and I can't find him unless he is actually "Luserne" in the records but who went by George. I've also read many times that both brothers were 32nd or 33rd degree Masons? If so, at what Lodge(s)?

Well, MAY have to go to the Virginia Room (Reference) at Roanoke (Va.) Library to get REAL info; NOT planning for that until next year in the SPRING (over-niter or two in Roanoke, Va.), as it is @ 1 1/2 hours from here; I like to take my time. What I HAVE found is... George L. Hart was "made" 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason at 91 years of age, PROBABLY in Roanoke. He was a JUDGE in DC; Clayton was NEVER a Freemason, as far as I know. The "sources" for that info is either in my Beale Treasure "File(s)" or HART PAPERS FILE, in the basement; Thanksgiving/X-mas has "covered" my "in-depth" R & I. The "Net" will NOT "help" you. SORRY!

 

[ECS]

ALL IN THE FAMILY

The Hutters and Ward were cousins,their grandfather was Major James Risque,and John William Sherman was cousin to James Beverly Ward.On various genealogy sites,Ward's wife is listed as Herriet Emmaline Otey or Buford,and his mother was Elizabeth Kennerly Ward.Many of these surnames appear in the Beale research.
During the 2nd year of the Confederate War,we know of CSA Major E S Hutter exploits,but what were F Hutter,Sherman,and Ward doing during that time?
There seems to be a strong family connection to the writing and publication of the 1885 Beale Papers,and it seems to originate from the 2nd year of the Confederate War.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

The Hutters and Ward were cousins,their grandfather was Major James Risque,and John William Sherman was cousin to James Beverly Ward.On various genealogy sites,Ward's wife is listed as Herriet Emmaline Otey or Buford,and his mother was Elizabeth Kennerly Ward.Many of these surnames appear in the Beale research.
During the 2nd year of the Confederate War,we know of CSA Major E S Hutter exploits,but what were F Hutter,Sherman,and Ward doing during that time?
There seems to be a strong family connection to the writing and publication of the 1885 Beale Papers,and it seems to originate from the 2nd year of the Confederate War.

Maj. Ferdinand C. Hutter was CSA PAYMASTER, stationed in Richmond, Va. & it was HE that had to SUDDENLY go to Richmond, Va., 1863... when Stonewall T. Jackson died from his wound in battle. Gen. Jackson's body was transported by train to Lynchburg, Va., transferred to a batteux at the 9th Street Bridge (on canal)... and transported up river (James) to Lexington, Va. (VMI). Some think the FIRST deposit of "Beale Treasure" was made in 1863; then second & FINAL deposit was made after Richmond, Va. "fell". It was recommended by Gen. R.E. Lee to CSA PREZ Jeff Davis that... "Richmond STORES" be moved WEST to Lynchburg, Va. and "points" WEST... AND! Lynchburg, Va. was state capital of VIRGINIA for FOUR days in April, 1865. J.W. Sherman was NOTHING; JB Ward did not "serve", either. "Strong family connection"...?
YEP! Maj. F. C. Hutter was the AUTHOR of the BEALE PAPERS, that the Inner Committee wrote... a COVER-UP; "PATCH-WORK of past adventure stories, letters. The Ciphers 1 & 3 are RUSES! Cipher 2 (DOI) was Declaration of Independence (CSA) from "King" Abraham Lincoln... WHY the TJ "connection"? when Prez of USA, TJ wanted a MILITARY INSTITUTE in the WESTERN part of VIRGINIA; SOLDIERS trained to protect WESTERN frontier of Va./USA. Fincastle, Va. was the GATEWAY to the WEST, & Lewis & Clark (TJ era) STARTED there. "THE DUEL" Beale vs Risque was THERE! AND! Very STRONG family "connection", ECS. THIS is interesting... "google" Ferdinand C. Hutter, Anonymous Author of Ward's Pamphlet

 

[bigscoop]

The Hutters and Ward were cousins,their grandfather was Major James Risque,and John William Sherman was cousin to James Beverly Ward.On various genealogy sites,Ward's wife is listed as Herriet Emmaline Otey or Buford,and his mother was Elizabeth Kennerly Ward.Many of these surnames appear in the Beale research.
During the 2nd year of the Confederate War,we know of CSA Major E S Hutter exploits,but what were F Hutter,Sherman,and Ward doing during that time?
There seems to be a strong family connection to the writing and publication of the 1885 Beale Papers,and it seems to originate from the 2nd year of the Confederate War.

Now give pause...."Risque"....Dutch? German? English?......."French". You've just tied all of the referenced names to a "French" bloodline/source.
If anyone has located Thomas J. "Beale" let him speak now...not Beal, Beall, or some other name of convenience, not likely his name was spelled wrong. I've yet to find anyone who has found him.....and they likely never will. Why?

Yep.....got internet already. Lucky you guys, right! I can see Reb now.......

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Now give pause...."Risque"....Dutch? German? English?......."French". You've just tied all of the referenced names to a "French" bloodline/source.
If anyone has located Thomas J. "Beale" let him speak now...not Beal, Beall, or some other name of convenience, not likely his name was spelled wrong. I've yet to find anyone who has found him.....and they likely never will. Why?

Yep.....got internet already. Lucky you guys, right! I can see Reb now.......

LOL! WORD "Risque" IS French... JB Risque was NOT; AMERICAN Lawyer from Fincastle, Va.; moved later to Lynchburg, Va. after wife died; had TWO kids. Thomas J. Beale was Thomas Beale, Sr.' son... Thomas JUNIOR ("J") Beale... LOL!

 

[ECS]

ALL IN THE FAMILY/Part 2-THE ST LOUIS CONNECTION

Giles Ward,James Beverly Ward's father, married Elizabeth Kennerly,whose older brothers,Capt George Hancock Kennerly,born Jan 28,1790 in Fincastle,Botetourt County,Virginia,and James Kennerly,born Aug 5,1792,also born in Fincastle,moved to St Louis in 1817.While in St Louis,the Kennerly brothers opened up a mercantile business and had accounts with both the Bank of St Louis formed in 1816 by merchants,and the Bank of Missouri,also formed by merchants in 1817.
Both banks accepted furs as collateral for loans,and both banks and the Kennerlys conducted business with the fur trappers,hunters,and explorers who came to St Louis. Young James Beverly Ward enjoyed the frontier tales of his Kennerly uncles,and that influence can be noted in the 1885 Beale job pamphlet.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Giles Ward,James Beverly Ward's father, married Elizabeth Kennerly,whose older brothers,Capt George Hancock Kennerly,born Jan 28,1790 in Fincastle,Botetourt County,Virginia,and James Kennerly,born Aug 5,1792,also born in Fincastle,moved to St Louis in 1817.While in St Louis,the Kennerly brothers opened up a mercantile business and had accounts with both the Bank of St Louis formed in 1816 by merchants,and the Bank of Missouri,also formed by merchants in 1817.
Both banks accepted furs as collateral for loans,and both banks and the Kennerlys conducted business with the fur trappers,hunters,and explorers who came to St Louis. Young James Beverly Ward enjoyed the frontier tales of his Kennerly uncles,and that influence can be noted in the 1885 Beale job pamphlet.

TRUE! AND! His grandfather's brother was an explorer out west; PROBABLY a GREATER "influence"... MORE, later. OK; "google" John Pickrell Risque... HH!
Gotta add PIKE expedition, Lewis & Clark Expedition... ALL of 'em JB Ward & the Hutters boys (cousins) grew up on, and PROBABLY "play-acted" on grandpa JB Risque's Plantation/Farm, near New London, Va. "HUNTING HILL(s)"; JB Ward is BURIED there! Coffee...?

 

[The Enigmatist]

Reb- You are always a great source. I want to make sure we are talking about the same man as there were two George L. Harts; Sr (the writer of the Hart Papers) and Jr, his son, who was a Fed Court judge. I know that Sr. lived in DC...was he also a judge? Here's a pic of Jr.

 

[The Enigmatist]

I don't find most of the similarities between E F Beale's papers and Ward's pamphlet to be all that telling, but I believe, based solely on one find, that you are likely right; that indeed elements of the earlier Beale Paper influenced the latter.

Started expedition in St Louis --- --- Left St Louis - St. Louis was called the "Gateway City" for a reason- virtually all central and southwestern expeditions left from it- so this isn't strong.

Expedition had 30 men--- --- Expedition had 30 men- not an unusual amount; the 1812 Becknell expedition had 30, Lewis/Clark had 33, the Nordic explorers mentioned on the Kensington Runestone also numbered 30.

Went to Santa Fe --- --- Went to Santa Fe- Like St. Louis, its called the Santa Fe Trail for a reason. If you went into the southwest after 1822 you took that trail and you went through Santa Fe. Not strong.

Traveled in Colorado--- ---Found gold and silver in Colorado- again, not unusual. Gold and silver is what lured most Americans to Colorado. When Zebulon Pike was in Santa Fe in 1807, he met an American named "Pursley" who said he too had discovered gold afew years earlier in Colorado.

Born in 1822 --- ---Letters to Morriss dated 1822, Ward born 1822- True

Published journal as "THE BEALE PAPERS"--- ---Ward pamphlet "THE BEALE PAPERS"- actually, this isn't quite accurate. Ward's paper also includes all the secondary wordings listed on the front cover as part of its copyright/title....its long a very clunky...and very typical of the 19th Century.

E F called "justley a lion" --- --- T J called "the Lion"- this isn't strong. I can, with little difficulty, think of at least 3 monarchs with that same monicker. Richard the Lion-hearted, Henry the 1st, and Gustav Augustus of Sweden

One journey listed as 1817 miles--- --- Started journey in 1817- True

Gold was NOT found by E F --- ---One of T J's men found the gold- again, referencing Pursley above- just not strong evidence. The "Denver Nuggets" were given that name for a reason.

Recieved $13,000 for an adventure--- --- Exchanged silver for $13,000 for transportation- This is compelling and perhaps the strongest indication that the 1850 Beale Papers were indeed referenced to produce the 1885 Beale Papers. "$13,000" is just too specific a number to be coincidence.

Similar words and terms used in both "BEALE PAPERS"- This isn't strong enough evidence.

So the question arises-Happenstance,Coincidence,or Deliberate Plaglarism on the part of Ward to sell a concocted treasure story with one solved cipher solved,the other two unsolvable? Or is the story a PERSHER CODE relating to a KGC treasure vault?

I believe a variation of the third option is most likely; not out and out plagerism per se but simply a borrowing of elements. Its what was borrowed which is important. Like Bigscoop, I see little evidence for KGC involvement but I also don't believe Ward was the author. For Ward, why be inspired, literally out of the blue, to pen such an odd document and then never write again?
I don't believe it was written for profit either however. I'm just musing over the amount of effort involved to have typeset it all- not just the ciphers but number-keying the DOI as well... If all the extant copies were destroyed and the author and typesetter had no way to reproduce what had been lost, what would the reason have been to never let the cat out of the bag later on...particularly given the fact that almost no read the original to begin with? I mean, who cares at that point?
​

 

[The Enigmatist]

Reb is pointing out something key. If you're from the Commonwealth you will be aware that there were a large amount of French Huguenots in Virginia (including branches of my own family- the Michauxs, Rochets, Fuquas, and many others)- which makes Virginia a tad different than most of the Colonies....we have a large French contingent which you don't find in other colonies (remembering the New Orleans was part of New France- and not a British colony). They were "recruited" by the English because they were Protestants and sent west of Richmond to act as a buffer community against the Manakin natives. The whole area around Goochland County today is still riddled with Hugi placenames and "towns"...and the county road which is south of the I64 is called "Huguenot Hwy". It is likely that the Risque family were also Huguenots.