WANTED: Hikers to help document the conclusion of the Peralta Stone Maps

[wrmickel1]

WRM,

Don't believe I said Chunning found the LDM, or any other rich mine or treasure.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe,

Never implied you did, Just was wondering what symbol or markings on the Stone Maps would incline you to believe without a problem to relate this site to them.

Thanks

babymick1

 

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[Cubfan64]

Paul & WRM,

Not sure what he named the claim, but it was reported on Dec. 7, 1901 "John Chuning claimed he found the Lost Dutchman Mine a short distance west of Weaver's Needle." Page 39 in "The Chronological History of the Superstition Wilderness Area,........" By, Tom Kollenborn.

One other thing......I had no problem connecting Chunning's claim to the Stone Maps.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

According to the claim that Potbelly posted by Chunning, the "Worser" claim doesn't jibe with the one you mentioned. According to Chunning's claim, the Worser was located 1 mile north of the paint mine, 3.5 miles south of the salt river and 7 miles north of the "needled" (assuming he means Weaver's Needle).

The only matching information is the fact that Chunning "located" the Worser on December 6, 1901 but it's clearly not a short distance west of the Needle.

 

[cactusjumper]

View attachment 1547884View attachment 1547885

Mick, as far as Chuning, here's a placer claim north of the Salt and then the Worser claim you guys have been talking about. John Chuning kicked around quite a bit...if you're a fan of the Two Soldiers mine, not to burst any bubbles, but when the Silver King closed down he took work elsewhere (instead of racing out into the mountains to find the lost mine). Haven't really looked at his life with any detail, but I knwo for example he went to work up at the Vulture before he hooked up with Jim Bark.

Jim,

Chunning had a claim on the Salt, in partnership with Jim Bark. It's an interesting story, and you can find it in the "Bark Notes", including the directions for finding it. As I recall, Jim mentions he was surprised that John found it, as it was around 12-miles north of where Chunning thought the LDM was. That's a nice clue for Dutch Hunters.

It's nice to see someone come along who seems to have both feet on the ground and a sharp mind. Please keep posting.

Take care,

Joe

 

[wrmickel1]

Joe,

According to the claim that Potbelly posted by Chunning, the "Worser" claim doesn't jibe with the one you mentioned. According to Chunning's claim, the Worser was located 1 mile north of the paint mine, 3.5 miles south of the salt river and 7 miles north of the "needled" (assuming he means Weaver's Needle).

The only matching information is the fact that Chunning "located" the Worser on December 6, 1901 but it's clearly not a short distance west of the Needle.

Cabfan

I see you caught that, Good work separating the wheat from the chaff,
A bold claim, indeed! But faded into History without the wealth of such a fabulous claim by the Dutchman. But I do know of one person only. Who filed a claim within the Wilderness Area who's family is still well off to this very day.

Now I'm starting to close the window on Travis, did he fake the Stone Maps,

Stay tuned

babymick1

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

According to the claim that Potbelly posted by Chunning, the "Worser" claim doesn't jibe with the one you mentioned. According to Chunning's claim, the Worser was located 1 mile north of the paint mine, 3.5 miles south of the salt river and 7 miles north of the "needled" (assuming he means Weaver's Needle).

The only matching information is the fact that Chunning "located" the Worser on December 6, 1901 but it's clearly not a short distance west of the Needle.

Paul,

I may be wrong, but I don't believe those numbers "jibe". Something's wrong with those numbers or really wrong with my memory of the area.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Jim,

Chunning had a claim on the Salt, in partnership with Jim Bark. It's an interesting story, and you can find it in the "Bark Notes", including the directions for finding it. As I recall, Jim mentions he was surprised that John found it, as it was around 12-miles north of where Chunning thought the LDM was. That's a nice clue for Dutch Hunters.

It's nice to see someone come along who seems to have both feet on the ground and a sharp mind. Please keep posting.

Take care,

Joe

joe...do you know approximately where bark and chunnings claim was?

 

[markmar]

Yeah, were not near each other, Cubfan is on track. Which tells me Ruth was 30 years late, But using a map that was there before Chuning filed a claim on the site in 1900/1901, I believe it was the Gonzales Family diggings.
Babymick1

Mick

Gonzales was son of Manuel Peralta and nephew of Pedro Peralta , so what we are calling today as Gonzales mines , were what we know the infamous Peralta mines before the massacre .
One of the Peralta mines which was depicted in the Gonzales map given to Charles Clark , it is where the map shows , and from my investigation , is one that was surveyed by the Peraltas and was depicted in the Cristobal Peralta map which Salazar have seen . For example , an imaginary line which connects the top of the first summit from the Peralta camp at the Salt River with the Casa Caverna ( the roofless two room house in a cave's mouth ) , pass over this mine at a specific point .
You can see this mine only in the GE image below ( yellow circle ) , been marked by four white stones . This is the mine Gonzales came for in 1876 .

View attachment 1547976

And from a different angle downstream

View attachment 1547977

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I think T.K. was referencing a newspaper article dated 7 DEC 1901. Don't know what mine the article was talking about, it doesn't seem to be the Worser (even though it's one day after the filing...may be some reporter just filing gossip about the Worser being the LDM). I think this may be the cause of the confusion. Article and circular reporting of it attached.

View attachment 1547979

 

[Cubfan64]

I think T.K. was referencing a newspaper article dated 7 DEC 1901. Don't know what mine the article was talking about, it doesn't seem to be the Worser (even though it's one day after the filing...may be some reporter just filing gossip about the Worser being the LDM). I think this may be the cause of the confusion. Article and circular reporting of it attached.

Jim - If I were going to look for Chunning's diggings and I had a choice between following the directions in the claim document he filed or a newspaper clipping, I'd be tossing the newspaper clipping. There are lots of cases where newspaper reports are inaccurate as you mentioned.

I went to the diggings/tunnel described by Chunning as being N of the Paint Mine last fall. I was told this was Chunning's Worser claim - whether that's correct or not I have no idea, but it's a tunnel and it's located where the claim description says it should be.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim - If I were going to look for Chunning's diggings and I had a choice between following the directions in the claim document he filed or a newspaper clipping, I'd be tossing the newspaper clipping. There are lots of cases where newspaper reports are inaccurate as you mentioned.

I went to the diggings/tunnel described by Chunning as being N of the Paint Mine last fall. I was told this was Chunning's Worser claim - whether that's correct or not I have no idea, but it's a tunnel and it's located where the claim description says it should be.

Paul,

I think you're right about the Worser claim. It seems we are talking about 3 different things and I'm trying to clear it up:

1. The Tom K. reference that Joe brought up is referencing the newspaper article I posted;
2. The Worser claim you visited and the claim document of same I posted;
3. Jim Bark's and Chuning's mine on the Salt, which Joe also brought up, which is neither of the above. I believe it's under Canyon Lake now. (EDIT: It would have to be Apache Lake, I think)

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

I think you're right about the Worser claim. It seems we are talking about 3 different things and I'm trying to clear it up:

1. The Tom K. reference that Joe brought up is referencing the newspaper article I posted;
2. The Worser claim you visited and the claim document of same I posted;
3. Jim Bark's and Chuning's mine on the Salt, which Joe also brought up, which is neither of the above. I believe it's under Canyon Lake now.

Jim - My opinion is that the Bark and Chunning mine ON the Salt river is indeed a separate claim and though I don't know where it is, I remember hearing that it was in the Horse Mesa area near the dam and is under water now as you said. I think the Worser claim is the tunnel N of the Paint Mine that I saw last fall, which leads me to believe either...

1) The newspaper simply got the directions wrong for the Worser claim (that's my belief based on the dates of the Worser claim and newspaper clipping)

or

2) Chunning located something else near Weaver's Needle around the same time as the Worser claim but different and either there is another claim there, or he never filed a claim on whatever it was and that's what the newspaper clipping is referring to.

I haven't had much time lately, but I know I saw you posting on another LDM forum. I'm pretty sure there was a long discussion about this from a number of years ago that still exists there. I'll check tonight if I have time and see if I can find a link to it and PM you. If I don't have time, I bet if you just do some searches using the keyword "Chunning" or "Worser" or something like that you'll find the discussion. I honestly don't remember what the outcome of the discussion was.

Paul

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim - My opinion is that the Bark and Chunning mine ON the Salt river is indeed a separate claim and though I don't know where it is, I remember hearing that it was in the Horse Mesa area near the dam and is under water now as you said. I think the Worser claim is the tunnel N of the Paint Mine that I saw last fall, which leads me to believe either...

1) The newspaper simply got the directions wrong for the Worser claim (that's my belief based on the dates of the Worser claim and newspaper clipping)

or

2) Chunning located something else near Weaver's Needle around the same time as the Worser claim but different and either there is another claim there, or he never filed a claim on whatever it was and that's what the newspaper clipping is referring to.

I haven't had much time lately, but I know I saw you posting on another LDM forum. I'm pretty sure there was a long discussion about this from a number of years ago that still exists there. I'll check tonight if I have time and see if I can find a link to it and PM you. If I don't have time, I bet if you just do some searches using the keyword "Chunning" or "Worser" or something like that you'll find the discussion. I honestly don't remember what the outcome of the discussion was.

Paul

Yep. I think you're spot-on. I think the newspaper article is just wrong about the location. Tom K. probably was only talking about the article, and how it was claimed to be the Lost Dutchman. This explains why Tom K. says the date is 7 DEC 1901 (date of the article) while the Worser claim is dated 06 DEC 1901. Regarding the Bark/Chuning mine on the Salt (that Bark talks about in the Bark notes), he does indeed say the Mormon Flat Dam (Edit: Horse Mesa Dam, sorry) caused that particular mine to disappear under water. He also said it produced good gold at first, they floated lumber down the river for improvements, I think they built an arrastra, etc. I wonder if those pics of the arrastra after Canyon Lake was drained was in fact their arrastra? (EDIT: Nope, it wasn't in Canyon lake, see below) Jim

EDIT: And before I confuse the issue even farther, I should say that Bark talks about BOTH mines in the Bark notes...The Worser, which I don't believe he called by name in the notes, and then after that he talks about the mine on the Salt.

EDIT again: Appears I got my lakes/dams confused...I think....I thought it was Mormon Flat/Canyon Lake, but it was actually Horse Mesa (Thanks Paul) so I'm thinking the mine would have to be under Apache Lake The description he gives about how hard it was to get there sure sounds like it was Apache Lake.

 

[Cubfan64]

Yep. I think you're spot-on. I think the newspaper article is just wrong about the location. Tom K. probably was only talking about the article, and how it was claimed to be the Lost Dutchman. This explains why Tom K. says the date is 7 DEC 1901 (date of the article) while the Worser claim is dated 06 DEC 1901. Regarding the Bark/Chuning mine on the Salt (that Bark talks about in the Bark notes), he does indeed say the Mormon Flat Dam (Edit: Horse Mesa Dam, sorry) caused that particular mine to disappear under water. He also said it produced good gold at first, they floated lumber down the river for improvements, I think they built an arrastra, etc. I wonder if those pics of the arrastra after Canyon Lake was drained was in fact their arrastra? Jim

EDIT: And before I confuse the issue even farther, I should say that Bark talks about BOTH mines in the Bark notes...The Worser, which I don't believe he called by name in the notes, and then after that he talks about the mine on the Salt.

EDIT again: Appears I got my lakes/dams confused...I think....I thought it was Mormon Flat/Canyon Lake, but it was actually Horse Mesa (Thanks Paul) so I'm thinking the mine would have to be under Apache Lake The description he gives about how hard it was to get there sure sounds like it was Apache Lake.

You might be right about the dam/lake - I was just going by memory and mine isn't so good anymore.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Yours is better than mine...I was going off memory too, until I looked it up...you're right about which dam it was...Jim

 

[sgtfda]

You need to look at the area geology. Also where gold can be found. Both are on the other side of Apache Lake where the granite is located. This was also a area Bark worked.

 

[wrmickel1]

You need to look at the area geology. Also where gold can be found. Both are on the other side of Apache Lake where the granite is located. This was also a area Bark worked.

I've been there Sarg, that's to obvious, It's were no miner would find. You gotta go back a few million years, The gold was made on the sea floor and covered by sand and sand and sand then thrusted up by a volcanic disturbance where plates were crushed together which created a north and south mountain ridge pattern while crushing goldfield gold in to a north and south pattern, follow the main mines that produced well and the pattern will show that, But there is one exception the east west fault that includes worser claim and more to the east, That look like sandstone till you dig below there you'll find the Quarts.

Waltz must have know that.

babymick1

 

[sgtfda]

Horse Mesa area. Your not going to find gold in this stuff.

 

[sgtfda]

Gold is obviously also located on the east and west side of the mountain. With the volcano in the middle.

 

[wrmickel1]

Horse Mesa area. Your not going to find gold in this stuff.

Agreed, overburden on horse mesa, but that's were they claim to of found Dutchman's gold just laying there. But you will find it at the Worser Claim here.



Same set up but less burden and following a east west fault that's in line with the goldfield mines.

its in the crush line between the two opposing ranges.

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Yours is better than mine...I was going off memory too, until I looked it up...you're right about which dam it was...Jim

Potbelly

You, Joe, Cubfan and Old

Seem to be very good at the past, Was there a fellow by the name present or past anyway connected to the Superstitions
or the lost Dutchman's Mine. His last name Diaz

babymick1