4 peaks has alot of potential for mining..too bad they made it wilderness and closed it off
WANTED: Hikers to help document the conclusion of the Peralta Stone Maps
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Cubfan64
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I read a couple hiking trip logs to Alder Creek. Most of the folks took a kayak from the Apache Lake Marina area to the creek and then hiked up to Brown's Cave. It sounds like there are some cairned trails around that area, but just about all the trip logs mention how tough it quickly gets when you get off the trail - THAT'S where I would want to explore
PotBelly Jim
Hero Member
Sarge, Dave, Paul, Everyone,
I’m trying to get a handle on where Bark/Chuning’s original mine on the Salt is actually located. In the Bark notes, Bark says Horse Mesa looms above in almost a straight cliff for over 2000 feet. This leads people to think he’s on the south bank, but to me it reads like he’s standing on the north bank, looking across the river and up at Horse Mesa. He also says Horse Mesa Dam is about a half mile below (down river) the mine location.
I’ve looked over all the mining claims he filed in the area. To me, it looks like they’re all on the north bank of the river.
In the attached document, I’ve attempted to point out what I think are the upper and lower boxes in the canyon and the possible mine locations. This is based on it being about a half mile from the dam, and he said his arrastra/water wheel was on a little “promontory” sticking out into the river.
What do you guys think? In one of his mining claims, he references Alder Creek specifically (sounds like you were spot-on Sarge). If anyone wants copies of all these mining claims let me know, it took forever to download them all, don’t want anyone to have to go through that just to look at them.
View attachment 1548542
I’m trying to get a handle on where Bark/Chuning’s original mine on the Salt is actually located. In the Bark notes, Bark says Horse Mesa looms above in almost a straight cliff for over 2000 feet. This leads people to think he’s on the south bank, but to me it reads like he’s standing on the north bank, looking across the river and up at Horse Mesa. He also says Horse Mesa Dam is about a half mile below (down river) the mine location.
I’ve looked over all the mining claims he filed in the area. To me, it looks like they’re all on the north bank of the river.
In the attached document, I’ve attempted to point out what I think are the upper and lower boxes in the canyon and the possible mine locations. This is based on it being about a half mile from the dam, and he said his arrastra/water wheel was on a little “promontory” sticking out into the river.
What do you guys think? In one of his mining claims, he references Alder Creek specifically (sounds like you were spot-on Sarge). If anyone wants copies of all these mining claims let me know, it took forever to download them all, don’t want anyone to have to go through that just to look at them.
View attachment 1548542
jim...from what i have seen most of the mining was done on the north side of the river...there are no roads on the north side and they used to have a cable stretched across the river to transport ore and equipment from one side to the other....
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sgtfda
Bronze Member
Paul I know where your heading on your next visit! It's very nice now. About 80 every day. Personally Im bored digging up gold and have been following historical legends. Most proving to be bull. Case in point. If there was so much gold in the volcano why was everyone up Alder Creek area back in the day. Well not everyone. A lot of Dutch hunters know nothing about prospecting. But they have the clues down pat.
Jim,
My image of the location of the Bark/Chuning arasrta was on the south side of the Salt river. Now that I think about it, I’m not sure why.
This was my understanding of the “original” Bark/Chuning mine near the Salt, and it was done years ago!
Greg Davis furnished much of the information and I don’t recall for sure if I was working with the actual claim documents in all cases.
Bark and Chuning did the location work and Bark went to Phoenix and on November 19, 1895, filed a Claim under the name DEFENDER GOLD MINE (On the Salt River above present day Horse Mesa Dam) in both he and Chuning's names
Between November 1895 and August 1896, Bark & Chuning built the burro powered arastra and began processing ore. Later they would build a water wheel arastra. According to Bark, he and Chuning had dug out about 30 tons of “ore”.
The arastra site was probably very near the hard rock?? mine but I don’t know where the actual DEFENDER GOLD MINE was located and from what type of terrain the ore was being taken.
Later;
On August 14, 1896 Bark and Chuning located a mine called the PURITAN, very near their initial mine. Bark filed the location on October 12, 1896. On the same day Bark also filed a placer mine claim near the mouth of Alder Creek (North side of the Salt River) which they called CURIOSITY
Frank Criswell, Bark’s partner, and his family and friends did file numerous claims mostly on the north side of the Salt in the fall of 1896.
Anyway, do your mining claims match up with this story and timeline or do I have something messed up? Were the claims you have found indicate placer or hard rock?
The access to the mine in Bark’s period was difficult. I also got the impression that the materials had to be shipped to some location above the mine and floated a few miles down the Salt to reach Bark’s operation.
I guess it's all underwater now!
Garry
My image of the location of the Bark/Chuning arasrta was on the south side of the Salt river. Now that I think about it, I’m not sure why.
This was my understanding of the “original” Bark/Chuning mine near the Salt, and it was done years ago!
Greg Davis furnished much of the information and I don’t recall for sure if I was working with the actual claim documents in all cases.
Bark and Chuning did the location work and Bark went to Phoenix and on November 19, 1895, filed a Claim under the name DEFENDER GOLD MINE (On the Salt River above present day Horse Mesa Dam) in both he and Chuning's names
Between November 1895 and August 1896, Bark & Chuning built the burro powered arastra and began processing ore. Later they would build a water wheel arastra. According to Bark, he and Chuning had dug out about 30 tons of “ore”.
The arastra site was probably very near the hard rock?? mine but I don’t know where the actual DEFENDER GOLD MINE was located and from what type of terrain the ore was being taken.
Later;
On August 14, 1896 Bark and Chuning located a mine called the PURITAN, very near their initial mine. Bark filed the location on October 12, 1896. On the same day Bark also filed a placer mine claim near the mouth of Alder Creek (North side of the Salt River) which they called CURIOSITY
Frank Criswell, Bark’s partner, and his family and friends did file numerous claims mostly on the north side of the Salt in the fall of 1896.
Anyway, do your mining claims match up with this story and timeline or do I have something messed up? Were the claims you have found indicate placer or hard rock?
The access to the mine in Bark’s period was difficult. I also got the impression that the materials had to be shipped to some location above the mine and floated a few miles down the Salt to reach Bark’s operation.
I guess it's all underwater now!
Garry
Jim,
My image of the location of the Bark/Chuning arasrta was on the south side of the Salt river. Now that I think about it, I’m not sure why.
This was my understanding of the “original” Bark/Chuning mine near the Salt, and it was done years ago!
Greg Davis furnished much of the information and I don’t recall for sure if I was working with the actual claim documents in all cases.
Bark and Chuning did the location work and Bark went to Phoenix and on November 19, 1895, filed a Claim under the name DEFENDER GOLD MINE (On the Salt River above present day Horse Mesa Dam) in both he and Chuning's names
Between November 1895 and August 1896, Bark & Chuning built the burro powered arastra and began processing ore. Later they would build a water wheel arastra. According to Bark, he and Chuning had dug out about 30 tons of “ore”.
The arastra site was probably very near the hard rock?? mine but I don’t know where the actual DEFENDER GOLD MINE was located and from what type of terrain the ore was being taken.
Later;
On August 14, 1896 Bark and Chuning located a mine called the PURITAN, very near their initial mine. Bark filed the location on October 12, 1896. On the same day Bark also filed a placer mine claim near the mouth of Alder Creek (North side of the Salt River) which they called CURIOSITY
Frank Criswell, Bark’s partner, and his family and friends did file numerous claims mostly on the north side of the Salt in the fall of 1896.
Anyway, do your mining claims match up with this story and timeline or do I have something messed up? Were the claims you have found indicate placer or hard rock?
The access to the mine in Bark’s period was difficult. I also got the impression that the materials had to be shipped to some location above the mine and floated a few miles down the Salt to reach Bark’s operation.
I guess it's all underwater now!
Garry
hi garry...i was up at apache lake when they drained it for maintenance a few years back......i didn't see any evidence of an arrestra ..they may have used the arrestra already in existence down river by mormon flat
PotBelly Jim
Hero Member
Jim,
My image of the location of the Bark/Chuning arasrta was on the south side of the Salt river. Now that I think about it, I’m not sure why.
This was my understanding of the “original” Bark/Chuning mine near the Salt, and it was done years ago!
Greg Davis furnished much of the information and I don’t recall for sure if I was working with the actual claim documents in all cases.
Bark and Chuning did the location work and Bark went to Phoenix and on November 19, 1895, filed a Claim under the name DEFENDER GOLD MINE (On the Salt River above present day Horse Mesa Dam) in both he and Chuning's names
Between November 1895 and August 1896, Bark & Chuning built the burro powered arastra and began processing ore. Later they would build a water wheel arastra. According to Bark, he and Chuning had dug out about 30 tons of “ore”.
The arastra site was probably very near the hard rock?? mine but I don’t know where the actual DEFENDER GOLD MINE was located and from what type of terrain the ore was being taken.
Later;
On August 14, 1896 Bark and Chuning located a mine called the PURITAN, very near their initial mine. Bark filed the location on October 12, 1896. On the same day Bark also filed a placer mine claim near the mouth of Alder Creek (North side of the Salt River) which they called CURIOSITY
Frank Criswell, Bark’s partner, and his family and friends did file numerous claims mostly on the north side of the Salt in the fall of 1896.
Anyway, do your mining claims match up with this story and timeline or do I have something messed up? Were the claims you have found indicate placer or hard rock?
The access to the mine in Bark’s period was difficult. I also got the impression that the materials had to be shipped to some location above the mine and floated a few miles down the Salt to reach Bark’s operation.
I guess it's all underwater now!
Garry
Garry, you are correct in the timeline above...the only thing I would add is that the Defender was posted on the ground on 19 NOV 1895, and filed on 27 JAN 1896.
Glad you are taking a turn on this, I hope everyone with something to add does so, but especially you...that's the intent in posting the map here...Dave is looking at the claims to see if he can help...I know I need to establish a timeline, I'm in no way done with the map (I need to date it and put a version on it as it changes). I'm not done with the timeline yet, so I may be wrong, but it looked like the water wheel lined up with the Puritan...after seeing what you posted, maybe it was all done only for the Defender ... I might be totally wrong at this point, hope everyone understands this is a work in progress. I suspect, and it's a suspicion only at this point, that there was more than one hard-rock claim on the Salt near the river's edge, even though the Bark Notes reads like it was only one.
If you would like me to email the claims for perusal, PM me with an email address. It looks like Bark had well over 30 claims of various types in Maricopa Co alone, but there are only 5 or 6 documents (some with multiple mining claims) on the Salt or Alder Creek area, so e-mailing just the Salt River ones is manageable. Is it all of them? I think so, but it's possible some didn't survive or get digitized, so it would be very, very helpful if you feel like comparing them to any info you have from Greg D.
I'm planning on marrying up the river bottom map with a USGS topo...so I have some graphics work to do before I can get to the timeline...I plan on using the info you guys posted on the other channel to help with the timeline, as most of the story is already there...the intent is to plot not only the river bottom claims, but the other ones that seem to be higher up, the road they built, and the route they took from the "hill" over Fish Creek.
Thanks, Jim
PotBelly Jim
Hero Member
Dave, they built the arrastra right next to the mine shaft, on a little "promontory" that stuck out into the river (Bark's notes)...Also, as an aside, I know there's disagreement over what side of the river the mine was on, but the contour lines on the map I posted looks like there wasn't much room on the south side (it was really steep) while on the north side there looks like there's some promontory's like Bark described. Did you get the claims I sent?
EDIT: Bark says the water wheel got swept away soon after it was built, so I would imagine the arrastra got the same treatment during flooding after they left the mines and before the dam was built.
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hi jim...i didnt get the claim papers..i sent you an email...just reply to it and include the papers.....if the mines were on the north side of the river it would have to be east of goat mountain..probably closer to the old military camp called waterdog..there was also some mines across from burnt corral campground.....maybe greg will chime in and shed some light on the subject
PotBelly Jim
Hero Member
Hey Dave...just re-sent them, one document per e-mail...let me know if they still don't come through...east of Goat Mtn? Bark said mine was a half mile from dam. Goat mtn. is a few miles father east...Trying to find an old map of the river...
jim..looks like the curiosity placer claim is on the north side of the river at the confluence of alder creek and salt river ...he gives pretty good landmarks on his lode claims but the names of the landmarks are all changed now....he mentions upper and lower box canyon...,,,,squaw nipple peak...mauk station...i found another one of his lode claims in the goldfield mining district...about 3 miles north of the mammoth mine...which would put it close to cottonwood spring ..its difficult to decipher the cursive writing on old mining claims...i'll keep working on it...if anyone knows where mauk's station was located that would be a good starting point
the claim you sent me called the worser claim looks to be close to tortilla flat
PotBelly Jim
Hero Member
I sent you the Worser? I think that's from a few days ago...Paul and I were talking about it...Paul just went up there a few months ago...yes, it's by the Paint Mine, it's one of Chuning's mines, but ignore that one...not on the Salt...
I think the references to upper and lower box are actually referring to the Salt River Canyon itself. There's been speculation that they are box canyons leading into the Salt River Canyon...my own belief is that they aren't tributary canyons...I think they are two otherwise inaccessible parts of the Salt River Canyon that are now under Apache Lake and we can't see them anymore.
Looking at the contour map of the lake bottom, I can see a pretty abrupt 50ft drop in the river which I labelled "beginning of upper box" (that's just a guess...was hoping someone would know). The label "beginning of lower box" is also a guess, but it makes sense to me to put a dam at the top of a drastic elevation change, as it would be easier to re-route the river there while building a dam. Shaky logic, I know...just trying to figure it out.
jim...on the curiosity claim ..he says it is at the mouth of alder creek...luckily alder creek is still named alder creek...the claim is 1 mile north of the lower box ...so the lower box is on the south side of the river....he says it is 1/2 mile from squaw? peak....i cant tell if its s.w or n.w
PotBelly Jim
Hero Member
Dave, found this on Mauk's Station:
View attachment 1549084
View attachment 1549084
according to his description of the Atlantis claim it would be near the confluence of alder creek and salt river ...if mauks station was 3 miles upstream from fish creek...he also said the atlantis borders the columbia claim..sounds like all his claims were right in that area...which makes sense because there was alot of mining activity along that stretch of the river...
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cactusjumper
Gold Member
Guys,
Bark mentions trips to the mine a number of times, sometimes in pretty good detail. He never once mentions crossing the Salt. Seems like an important detail to leave out. I have always believed their mine was on the south side of the river.
Good luck,
Joe
Bark mentions trips to the mine a number of times, sometimes in pretty good detail. He never once mentions crossing the Salt. Seems like an important detail to leave out. I have always believed their mine was on the south side of the river.
Good luck,
Joe
PotBelly Jim
Hero Member
Hi Joe,
Personally, I'm torn about the location...it's obvious that he approached the mine/s from the south side. It seems evident, also, that the perilous trail they cut on the cliff seems to be on Horse Mesa, so that's on the south side. When they freighted up all the lumber, etc, this also is pretty obvious they were on the south side. Bark talks about going up the Apache Trail to a few miles beyond "Fish Creek Hill", then cutting north to the river. As you point out, he never once speaks about crossing the river. But, for at least the Curiosity placer claim, it seems they crossed the river to work it .. it also appears other claims are on the north side, (I haven't had time to try and plot them yet)...so while you're right that he never speaks of crossing the river, it appears he did. At one point, he uses the word "Mines" instead of "Mine" when talking about what he and Chuning were working.
I don't think there's enough info in the Bark Notes to say that any mine or mines were on the north side of the river. If there were mines on the north side, I think that info is going to have to come from the claim filings, newspaper articles (yay, we all know how accurate those are) or from some other corroborating source.
The other thing I was trying to work in is the geology. The south bank of the river was very steep. It appears that the south bank is made of softer stuff, and the underlying granite is sloping down at a steep angle from north to south. The river, constantly being acted on by gravity, seems to be "sliding" to the south over time, down the slope of the granite and into the softer stuff on the south. The contour map of the river bottom bears this out. Granted, the contour interval is 50ft, so it's not a very good map, but we can still see the general trend. I think it's most likely it was the granite they were working for gold, which seems to be much more exposed on the north bank.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong about north or south bank being the location of the mine. I may never be able to find out. In that case, I think I would have to bow to the prevailing wisdom that the hard-rock mine or mines are on the south side. But from what I can see, there does seem to be at least some evidence for mines on the north side, just not in the Bark notes. Best regards, Jim
jim....going by his claim papers a couple of them say the north side of the river....and it seems like they border each other....which in mining is common practice..when you hit a good strike most miners try to claim the ground adjacent to their strike...the reason for that is there could be more goodies close by...and as soon as word gets out about your good fortune..other miners will flock to your area and claim around you...by claiming ground adjacent to your claim you prevent this.....i've tried researching old mining claims before and its hard due to the miners description in their papers..they didn't have a very accurate way of measuring mileage like we do today so they just guessed....the few cases where i was able to actually locate an old mine on the ground...it wasn't where the claim papers indicated it was.....the area around alder creek is pretty vertical...on both sides of the river...if i were going to prospect the river i would be looking a bit further east..away from the cliffs....the only places you would be able to mine in those cliffs would be where a wash or creek empties into the river...try emailing greg davis or tom kollenborn and see if they have ever investigated these claims
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