Wagoner's Lost Ledge

[cuzimloony]

You got it totally wrong if you believe you are that person who will help people to find gold. I meant, if someone would help you or someone else, pointing out in an open forum a spot of gold somewhere, then you will be not alone there for sure.
I welcome the new TH generation who will make more entertaining the seek of the hidden treasures in those mountains full of mystery and secrets.

I am not trying to help anyone find gold. Well, not true. I want to find gold, for me.
But this video was not to help people find gold.....so to speak. I had zero desire to start a youtube channel, although now, admittedly, Im enjoying the process and will probably enjoy doing more. I made the video FOR THIS THREAD. You can hear me talking to YOU GUYS in the video, clearly not made for the masses. Its not really entertainment, although in my efforts to a) drown out my babbling and b) speed up the hike so it wasn't an 8 hour video, that, I added some entertaining elements to not bore you do death. Not only that, The Wagoner's Ledge was the first treasure story told to me by a local who not only took me under his wing, but was interested in finding it himself (besides the typical dutchman/peralta stories) and I have a lot of respect for said local.
So, Im interested, very interested, in this story.
Also.....I read the lore, see the threads and watch people going in circles and.....IM ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE, reading the same stories over and over that go nowhere. BUT I have the ability to go out there, weekly if I want to, to SEE FOR MYSELF. So.....why not? And why not contribute whatever I can to the community in an effort to STOP GOING IN CIRCLES. I want to contribute to the pool of knowledge, and not in a chopped-up, blacked-out obfuscated google earth image kind-of-way. These videos can eliminate, or open up, possibilities for many more than just me, and Im not gold greedy. I am fully aware that "TH experts" may see my videos, see something that I dont, and act, in some unexpected way, be it going for the gold, or coming for me. I don't scare too easily (expert marksman in the Navy) and Im quite beligerant, high energy and rowdy. Its short guy thing. I dont expect to find gold anyway even though I keep as keen an eye as this easterner can in these "mountains full of mysteries and secrets." Things become less mysterious when you live there..... I can see the Sups from my house if I go upstairs. Keep in mind, the history channel made a drivable path look like a 3 day, mule-laden journey. Authours do the same types of exaggerations in their books. A lot of this "mystery" is MANUFACTURED. (....but why is the question??...another thread...)
So in a way..... I am the Wagoner, an easterner from Pennsylvania, finding life and health, hiking the Sups....but Im smart enough to bring gallons of water, salt tabs, hiking shoes, trekking poles, extra food, and gear that will hopefully keep me alive should I need it to, IN A BACKPACK. I just need to find that gold to complete the analogy.....

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

I'd sure like it if you kept making videos, you seem to have a knack for it. The video you made was pretty dang good. I'm not one that has the patience to watch YT vids, ever. It's just not my thing. I think part of it is I get antsy being held hostage to whatever it is that someone wants me to watch. I was the same way in school, having to sit there and listen to the teacher. Just rubs me the wrong way.

When I saw how long your video was, I assumed I'd be skipping around and watching parts here and there. But you held my attention and to my surprise I watched the whole thing.

So I think you're good at it.

 

[cuzimloony]

I'd sure like it if you kept making videos, you seem to have a knack for it. The video you made was pretty dang good. I'm not one that has the patience to watch YT vids, ever. It's just not my thing. I think part of it is I get antsy being held hostage to whatever it is that someone wants me to watch. I was the same way in school, having to sit there and listen to the teacher. Just rubs me the wrong way.

When I saw how long your video was, I assumed I'd be skipping around and watching parts here and there. But you held my attention and to my surprise I watched the whole thing.

So I think you're good at it.

Thank you for that!
I was surprised how well it came out (its not THAT good compared to real channels), and Ill do more for sure. Im invested now.
Black Friday sales started last week. The new GoPro Hero 13 was on sale.......it's already shipped, with the giant fisheye, meaning, the recorded video quality will improve.
Also........Apple had a sale on Final Cut Pro, meaning the exported quality will also improve. Get ready for high quality, amateur, videos
Less than $1000 is still low budget, right? Lol

 

[markmar]

I am not trying to help anyone find gold. Well, not true. I want to find gold, for me.
But this video was not to help people find gold.....so to speak. I had zero desire to start a youtube channel, although now, admittedly, Im enjoying the process and will probably enjoy doing more. I made the video FOR THIS THREAD. You can hear me talking to YOU GUYS in the video, clearly not made for the masses. Its not really entertainment, although in my efforts to a) drown out my babbling and b) speed up the hike so it wasn't an 8 hour video, that, I added some entertaining elements to not bore you do death. Not only that, The Wagoner's Ledge was the first treasure story told to me by a local who not only took me under his wing, but was interested in finding it himself (besides the typical dutchman/peralta stories) and I have a lot of respect for said local.
So, Im interested, very interested, in this story.
Also.....I read the lore, see the threads and watch people going in circles and.....IM ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE, reading the same stories over and over that go nowhere. BUT I have the ability to go out there, weekly if I want to, to SEE FOR MYSELF. So.....why not? And why not contribute whatever I can to the community in an effort to STOP GOING IN CIRCLES. I want to contribute to the pool of knowledge, and not in a chopped-up, blacked-out obfuscated google earth image kind-of-way. These videos can eliminate, or open up, possibilities for many more than just me, and Im not gold greedy. I am fully aware that "TH experts" may see my videos, see something that I dont, and act, in some unexpected way, be it going for the gold, or coming for me. I don't scare too easily (expert marksman in the Navy) and Im quite beligerant, high energy and rowdy. Its short guy thing. I dont expect to find gold anyway even though I keep as keen an eye as this easterner can in these "mountains full of mysteries and secrets." Things become less mysterious when you live there..... I can see the Sups from my house if I go upstairs. Keep in mind, the history channel made a drivable path look like a 3 day, mule-laden journey. Authours do the same types of exaggerations in their books. A lot of this "mystery" is MANUFACTURED. (....but why is the question??...another thread...)
So in a way..... I am the Wagoner, an easterner from Pennsylvania, finding life and health, hiking the Sups....but Im smart enough to bring gallons of water, salt tabs, hiking shoes, trekking poles, extra food, and gear that will hopefully keep me alive should I need it to, IN A BACKPACK. I just need to find that gold to complete the analogy.....

People searching for the Wagoner's gold, went in circles because dismissed the clues written in Barry's book. Barry Storm had the story from people who lived in Wagoner era and the info was fresh and unaltered, at least the essence of the story.
You can't reach Wagoner's performance to complete the same route he walked in those days, because he had not your modern hiking gear, not your physical shape and he was walking all the distance from Pinal and back.
IMO, is better to think and try to understand the route had followed Wagoner, than to compare strengths and to say " if i have found it hard, a relatively sick man would didn't make it ".
Don't stand by logic, stand by clues. Maybe he was chewing coca leaves, who cares.

 

[cuzimloony]

People searching for the Wagoner's gold, went in circles because dismissed the clues written in Barry's book. Barry Storm had the story from people who lived in Wagoner era and the info was fresh and unaltered, at least the essence of the story.
You can't reach Wagoner's performance to complete the same route he walked in those days, because he had not your modern hiking gear, not your physical shape and he was walking all the distance from Pinal and back.
IMO, is better to think and try to understand the route had followed Wagoner, than to compare strengths and to say " if i have found it hard, a relatively sick man would didn't make it ".
Don't stand by logic, stand by clues. Maybe he was chewing coca leaves, who cares.

CIRCLES

 

[cuzimloony]

Barry Storm never found the Ledge. He even said "gold doesnt "grow" like that," but his book contains "the answer to the riddle," to the gold he was never able to locate himself.
Nonsense.
CIRCLES
Never trust a grown man who changes his last name.

 

[markmar]

Barry Storm never found the Ledge. He even said "gold doesnt "grow" like that," but his book contains "the answer to the riddle," to the gold he was never abke to locate himself.
Nonsense.
CIRCLES
Never trust a grown man who changes his last name.

Barry Storm has never attempted to search for the Wagoner's gold. He just put the story on paper like he has heard it, adding some colour to make the story longer in an artistic way.
Barry Storm was his pen name. He never changed his John Clemenson real name to another.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Barry Storm was his pen name. He never changed his John Clemenson real name to another.

Marius,

I guess we could say he never LEGALLY changed his name to Barry Storm.

He did so fraudulently.

He was serious about ditching his old identity as John Griffith Climenson. He applied for a Social Security Number in Phoenix under the name "Barry G. Storm". This was and still is a felony. However, at the time it was easy to do, all one had to do was open a bank account and claim that he'd never been issued a SSN. The US had just instituted the Social Security system, at a time when many people didn't even have birth certificates.

He also registered for the draft with his fake name and its associated SSN. All of his service and VA related records were under the name Barry Storm. He paid taxes and filed tax returns using Barry Storm. Another round of felonies.

So it was a bit more than a "pen name". It's not legal to establish an SSN with a pen name. It was a felonious alias that once used with the SSA, IRS and the Army/VA...he knew to keep his mouth shut and nobody would ever find out (he didn't know computers were in the future)

He did, later in life, let the VA know that his birth name was John G. Climenson. They knew that when they made his headstone for the VA cemetery. But the stone was made with the name "Barry Storm".

 

[cuzimloony]

Marius,

I guess we could say he never LEGALLY changed his name to Barry Storm.

He did so fraudulently.

He was serious about ditching his old identity as John Griffith Climenson. He applied for a Social Security Number in Phoenix under the name "Barry G. Storm". This was and still is a felony. However, at the time it was easy to do, all one had to do was open a bank account and claim that he'd never been issued a SSN. The US had just instituted the Social Security system, at a time when many people didn't even have birth certificates.

He also registered for the draft with his fake name and its associated SSN. All of his service and VA related records were under the name Barry Storm. He paid taxes and filed tax returns using Barry Storm. Another round of felonies.

So it was a bit more than a "pen name". It's not legal to establish an SSN with a pen name. It was a felonious alias that once used with the SSA, IRS and the Army/VA...he knew to keep his mouth shut and nobody would ever find out (he didn't know computers were in the future)

He did, later in life, let the VA know that his birth name was John G. Climenson. They knew that when they made his headstone for the VA cemetery. But the stone was made with the name "Barry Storm".

View attachment 2180366

View attachment 2180367

I was researching this right now and......you were faster, more thorough, better thought out and more articulate. Please continue to augmemt arguments for me. You do a much better job than I do for sure!

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I was researching this right now and......you were faster, more thorough, better thought out and more articulate. Please continue to augmemt arguments for me. You do a much better job than I do for sure!

LOL.

I've been doing this research for years and have it all saved on a couple of 1TB hard drives...but I hardly think you're not up to the task...a lot of my research is old, (some is VERY OLD) so you might run across something new...

PS: My "filing system" sucks too...a lot of it is just pasted into hundreds of old Power Point 2000 files, which makes it super hard to find sometimes

 

[Idahodutch]

LOL.

I've been doing this research for years and have it all saved on a couple of 1TB hard drives...but I hardly think you're not up to the task...a lot of my research is old, (some is VERY OLD) so you might run across something new...

PS: My "filing system" sucks too...a lot of it is just pasted into hundreds of old Power Point 2000 files, which makes it super hard to find sometimes

Jim,
The filing system you use, may not be to your liking, but the information you are able to bring to the table, is fantastic. I am of the mindset, if someone finds stuff out there, most likely it was not on their own.

Without people doing extensive research, thing would be a lot different, and probably a lot less productive….
So I for one, applaud your efforts.

We all have stuff to bring to the table and it is a joy to see folk that bring it to help 😄👍

Sincerely,
Idahodutch ….. aka-Russ

 

[markmar]

CIRCLES

CLUES, CLUES

 

[cuzimloony]

CLUES, CLUES

Lol.
Sure.
Here's an honest question.
Im preparing for a trip around Picacho Butte via Red Tanks and Im realizing something..... It gets into the 30's at night here now. If Im going to spend the night there, (multiple on this trip......I need three days and two nights just to get around Picacho, but Wagoner crossed the entire Superstitions in 3 days going to Goldfield.... Suuuuuuuuuuuure buddy), I am going to need serious winter gear to survive the night. I mean, wool socks, base layers, mid layers and thermal layers, goose-down sleeping bag, even a goose-down beanie. Humans die in only 50 degree weather if they have to spend the night in it and they're damp (rain, sweat, etc...) All in Farenheit, obviously.
If Wagoner did this every month, for 5 years, he MUST have been there overnight in the winter.
What kind of winter survival gear to you think he brought along as an older hiker, without a mule or a horse to carry anything? There wasn't very much high-tech, lighweight, goose-down gear here in AZ at the time.......

Sometimes, the clue you should pick up on is: "THIS STORY IS SO ABSURD YOU SHOULD REALIZE IT!"

But hey......some people want you going in circles.

 

[markmar]

Lol.
Sure.
Here's an honest question.
Im preparing for a trip around Picacho Butte via Red Tanks and Im realizing something..... It gets into the 30's at night here now. If Im going to spend the night there, (multiple on this trip......I need three days and two nights just to get around Picacho, but Wagoner crossed the entire Superstitions in 3 days going to Goldfield.... Suuuuuuuuuuuure buddy), I am going to need serious winter gear to survive the night. I mean, wool socks, base layers, mid layers and thermal layers, goose-down sleeping bag, even a goose-down beanie. Humans die in only 50 degree weather if they have to spend the night in it and they're damp (rain, sweat, etc...) All in Farenheit, obviously.
If Wagoner did this every month, for 5 years, he MUST have been there overnight in the winter.
What kind of winter survival gear to you think he brought along as an older hiker, without a mule or a horse to carry anything? There wasn't very much high-tech, lighweight, goose-down gear here in AZ at the time.......

Sometimes, the clue you should pick up on is: "THIS STORY IS SO ABSURD YOU SHOULD REALIZE IT!"

But hey......some people want you going in circles.

IMO. he had a sheep leather coat with its fur inside, leather boots with wool socks and a wool blanket. He would find an alcove by the mine and would had a fire in front with thick logs to keep burning all night.

 

[cuzimloony]

IMO. he had a sheep leather coat with its fur inside, leather boots with wool socks and a wool blanket. He would find an alcove by the mine and would had a fire in front with thick logs to keep burning all night.

"Thick logs"
............ lol
I can tell you've never been to southern AZ.

 

[markmar]

Cuzimloony

"Thick logs"
............ lol
I can tell you've never been to southern AZ.

Ok, thick dry wood ( fallen dry mesquite tree ) or a dry agave.

 

[markmar]

"Thick logs"
............ lol
I can tell you've never been to southern AZ.

So you say all those Mexican miners in the Superstitions, brought their wood from Mexico? LOL.

 

[cuzimloony]

So you say all those Mexican miners in the Superstitions, brought their wood from Mexico? LOL.

Mexican miners =/= an elderly hiker.
Circles

 

[cuzimloony]

Cuzimloony

Ok, thick dry wood ( fallen dry mesquite tree ) or a dry agave.

Circles

 

[markmar]

Mexican miners =/= an elderly hiker.
Circles

So, for Mexican miners existed thick wood but for a hiker not? I can't understand your mindset. Are you a robot?