Wagoner's Lost Ledge

[cuzimloony]

Watching the Chargers/Ravens game lol. Quick posts. Greg included McKinneys articles within his article.

The story I heard was quite a bit different from the Barry Storm version. I've never written it down. One of my prospecting mentors was an old Mormon guy who told me the "real" Wagoner story. I suspect Tom got a similar story. The "Mormon version". Everyone involved was Mormon. Including Hebe MacDonald. They held back some info as far as I can tell.

I see. I'll leave you to it. Thank you for all your info Jim. It amazes me how much you know...
Side note: When I lived back east, "Mormon" was just something you heard about on the TV. Now that Im here, I can count 4 Mormon churches as I drive down the road before reaching another variety (baptist, catholic, etc...) Now that I think about it, my polling station is the local Mormon church. They are everywhere here in large numbers so......in my head that lends credence to the Mormon aspect of this story. Thanks Jim!

 

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[markmar]

Hesiod:
View attachment 2180625
Homer:
View attachment 2180626View attachment 2180627
View attachment 2180628
There are a lot more I don't have in front of me, from many Greek poets not as famous as Homer or Hesiod. Apollo always has blonde hair too, probably because he represents the sun, but you can see them online anyway.

https://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyle/half-of-european-men-share-king-tuts-dna-idUSTRE7704PB/

Yes, those ancient writers and philosophers, used the blonde hair as a divinization, something different you could see around. Those statements were the beginning of the aryan race concept.
Plato described the Atlanteans in the same way, as superior human beings, concept which was adopted in the 19th and 20th century by racists like Hitler and different other clans all over the world.
Also the fairy tales writers adopted this concept by describing the most beautiful women and the most strong men, having blond hair and giving them titles like king, prince, queen and princess. Even that blonde woman with magical powers from " Game of Thrones " follows the same concept, so the aryanism still exist in the background.

History also taught how aryans were/are just an illusion, an idea, common people with a specific body characteristics.

 

[cuzimloony]

Yes, those ancient writers and philosophers, used the blonde hair as a divinization, something different you could see around. Those statements were the beginning of the aryan race concept.
Plato described the Atlanteans in the same way, as superior human beings, concept which was adopted in the 19th and 20th century by racists like Hitler and different other clans all over the world.
Also the fairy tales writers adopted this concept by describing the most beautiful women and the most strong men, having blond hair and giving them titles like king, prince, queen and princess. Even that blonde woman with magical powers from " Game of Thrones " follows the same concept, so the aryanism still exist in the background.

History also taught how aryans were/are just an illusion, an idea, common people with a specific body characteristics.

Yes you are correct. The greatest poets, historians and philosophers of their day and ours used blonde hair as the epitome of their race. Even ancient Greek statues were painted blonde when you analyze the remaining paint. Just like you said.......they were the DIVINE examples (and by so saying, proving my point).
Now go cope some more and keep telling yourself that those ancient philosophers, historians and poets were "illusioned," because post WWII "historians" said so.

At first it was: "No No you're thinking of Scandinavian Gods!"
1 hour later it is: "Ok fine the Greeks DID have blonde Gods, but they were just illusioned!" lol
Go cope.

Was Darius the Great "illusioned" too? Read line 2 of the inscription at his tomb, which he wrote himself before dying. What does he call himself? Illusion? Where does the word IRAN come from? What is the root of IRAN? What about Mt ARARAT (in the CAUCAS mountains, which is where the word caucasian comes from...so ARYAN and CAUCASIAN in the same mountain chain)? What is the root word there? Last but not least...what is the root of the word ARISTOCRAT? I know I know....the root word is "illusion" right?

Inscription of Darius the Great at Naqsh-e Rostam

www.cais-soas.com

 

[markmar]

Yes you are correct. The greatest poets, historians and philosophers of their day and ours used blonde hair as the epitome of their race. Even ancient Greek statues were painted blonde when you analyze the remaining paint. Just like you said.......they were the DIVINE examples (and by so saying, proving my point).
Now go cope some more and keep telling yourself that those ancient philosophers, historians and poets were "illusioned," because post WWII "historians" said so.

At first it was: "No No you're thinking of Scandinavian Gods!"
1 hour later it is: "Ok fine the Greeks DID have blonde Gods, but they were just illusioned!" lol
Go cope.

Was Darius the Great "illusioned" too? Read line 2 of the inscription at his tomb, which he wrote himself before dying. What does he call himself? Illusion? Where does the word IRAN come from? What is the root of IRAN? What about Mt ARARAT (in the CAUCAS mountains, which is where the word caucasian comes from...so ARYAN and CAUCASIAN in the same mountain chain)? What is the root word there? Last but not least...what is the root of the word ARISTOCRAT? I know I know....the root word is "illusion" right?

Inscription of Darius the Great at Naqsh-e Rostam

www.cais-soas.com

I don't understand your imput , but yes, aryan lineage = full alazonism of being something special. I believe even a kid would understand Darius texts as a promoter of himself. If he was so special, why those statements were not written by someone else, have had died all his admirators?
if you want to look like a Greek God, it's ok. You can say your God chose you to look like a Greek God and to find the Wagoner's lost gold mine.
And I wrote, the aryan concept was an illusion, an idea. You are not paying attention or you are not capable to understand what you are reading.

 

[cuzimloony]

I don't understand your imput , but yes, aryan lineage = full alazonism of being something special. I believe even a kid would understand Darius texts as a promoter of himself. If he was so special, why those statement were not written by someone else, have had died all his admirators?
if you want to look like a Greek God, it's ok. You can say your God chose you to look like a Greek God and to find the Wagoner's lost gold mine.

Whatever. Cope.

 

[markmar]

Speakng of those 7 shafts at Millsite, which may be the 7 shafts Tom Kollenborn mentions in his story..... I was looking through old drone video and found something the group here might appreciate. Before the KGC or Air Force stole my drone (lol.......I say that jokingly, maybe...long story), I was practicing searching for clues with it. One time, when I first got my drone, I practiced around Millsite. So, here it is. It is an unlisted video, meaning only people who have the link can see it. I'll post that here. I just don't want this video open to the general public on my page since the camera work sucks, the flying sucks, the color sucks, there is no editing, there is no music, there is no sound at all even, it is just a video for my own research. Anyhow..........the idea was to scan up the mountain at one spot, then slide over and scan down the mountain, rinse repeat ad infinitum. I didn't do so well. I was new with the drone at this pont, BUT I think it may provide valuable info to you guys here interested in this Millsite aspect to the 7 shafts in the Kollenborn Wagoner story.
This video is just inside the canyon.
Timestamps:
At 1:37 in the video, upper left of the screen, a buddy of mine who is about 6 feet tall enters the shot. This is for scale.
At 2:18 in the video you can see what it looks like looking back (looking southish) from the entrance to Millsite Canyon.
At 2:52 you can see one of those "cowboy walls." Or was this put here for mining purposes? Any input would be appreciated.
At 3:15 ish you can see the jeep 2 track that leads INTO Millsite Canyon. I always see side-by-sides full of entire families taking this route to who knows where........
The rest of the video is just looking at the ground and is dumb, if it wasn't dumb already.
At least, some who have never been here, or some who may have been here long ago, here is a bit of recent video for your pleasure...

I hate your video! Got me dizzy turning your drone around and around.

 

[cuzimloony]

I hate your video! Got me dizzy turning your drone around and around.

Awesome. Now you know what it's like to go outside You're welcome!

 

[markmar]

Awesome. Now you know what it's like to go outside You're welcome!

Yes, those rocks and cacti made me shiver.

 

[cuzimloony]

To me all this seems a small conspiracy to keep people afar from Miner's Needle area. If few smart guys who came out of the blue lately, believe can outsmart the old mountain jackals, then good luck to them. Maybe they would find out in this process, from where the goldfish is farting.

I can't believe I'm going to say this.....but I think you might be on to something. Not your silly jackal comment, but the Miner's Needle one.
I just rewatched some of of the video I have of my exit from Whiskey "Canyon" for the day, headed toward Miners Needle and..... I am not joking when I said I was struggling. Maybe one day I'll put the video up, but you can hear the fatigue in every step.....but there are 2 things that occurred to me while watching it.

B) Maybe I am being so critical against elderly people (man, saying that sounds offensive, but I don't mean it to be) doing this because I went out and in, in the same day. If I had spend the night down there and left the next day with fresher legs, would my opinion be different? Maybe. I see that a lot of people are not in agreeance with my initial conclusion, so maybe it's worth another look. and,
3) If Spartan's hunch is correct and the Dutchman didn't go far into the mountains, then the Miner's Needle area could absolutely be a contender. I know people have been all over that area. I remember the story of "The Bushwackers" happened around there...but maybe an outsider's eyes might see something different.
A) Finally, because I'm good at math, if Spartan's hunch is correct, then I want to add another area to look at/for when you're poking around. If you are walking IN to Whiskey Springs and you've already passed Miner's Needle, so headed EAST before dropping down in to Whiskey Springs, there are a lot of places just to the right AND left of the trail, IN THE HILLS, that are easily accessible. This is that little bit of trail in an east west direction in between Miner's Needle and the top of the descent into Whiskey Springs. Maybe Im silly for suggesting it. It's been walked a brazilian times. It seemed to me however that those may be good places to quickly and easily scurry off trail and find yourself a nice secluded "spot" so-to-speak.

Also, if you want a good laugh. I'll tell you why I didn't spend the night there at Whiskey Springs, which was my initial plan. Wayne Tuttle's Whiskey Spring video. I didn't feel like sleeping alone with flying monsters around. No sh*t.

Anyhow, I am officially off this site for Thanksgiving. I think I've caused enough destruction, unfortunately. Have a good turkey day everyone.

 

[cuzimloony]

 

[cuzimloony]

Ok......so we have a map that appears to be in the wrong location, possibly. There is at least a bit of evidence that points to Whitlow Canyon as the Waggoner's "spot." I wonder what would happen if we overlayed the BS and Kollenborn Waggoner map from Whisky Springs on top of the area around Whitlow..........

 

[markmar]

Ok......so we have a map that appears to be in the wrong location, possibly. There is at least a bit of evidence that points to Whitlow Canyon as the Waggoner's "spot." I wonder what would happen if we overlayed the BS and Kollenborn Waggoner map from Whisky Springs on top of the area around Whitlow..........

You can't overlay BS and Tom maps, because IMHO they haven't a scale and wouldn't match on an accurate map. But you can try if you believe would has any expected result.

 

[cuzimloony]

You can't overlay BS and Tom maps, because IMHO they haven't a scale and wouldn't match on an accurate map. But you can try if you believe would has any expected result.

Yeah, so to clarify a bit.....not a scaled overlay, but general directions. Good point. Thanks!

 

[Garry]

I’m always interested in the veracity and provenance of a story. Has anyone found any documents, census, deeds, newspaper articles, etc. that hint Wagoner ever lived or that this may have been an alias?

Where did the spelling Waggoner come from?

Two of the players in the story are Fred Mullins and his son Jesse Mullins. Fred was born & died (March 1849- February 21, 1921). Jessie was born & died (November 7, 1875-January 17, 1959)

Any Wagoner stories orally passed down, would seem to have originated with Fred Mullins but he was dead by 1921, So Storm and all the other authors certainly didn’t get the story from the horse’s mouth or anywhere close.

Did Fred Mullins drive a stage from the Silver King to Florence or a similar route, in the early 1890s – time frame? Stageline name, period of operation, etc.

Does anyone know who could have ended up with the alleged map that Wagoner drew? Storm tells us the map he used in his publication was cleaned up (Almost certainly by him)

Is Jesse the source or is it some of Fred’s Mormon friends? Hint? I know there is a lot more of the Morman story than I'm privey too.

Garry

 

[cuzimloony]

I’m always interested in the veracity and provenance of a story. Has anyone found any documents, census, deeds, newspaper articles, etc. that hint Wagoner ever lived or that this may have been an alias?

Where did the spelling Waggoner come from?

Two of the players in the story are Fred Mullins and his son Jesse Mullins. Fred was born & died (March 1849- February 21, 1921). Jessie was born & died (November 7, 1875-January 17, 1959)

Any Wagoner stories orally passed down, would seem to have originated with Fred Mullins but he was dead by 1921, So Storm and all the other authors certainly didn’t get the story from the horse’s mouth or anywhere close.

Did Fred Mullins drive a stage from the Silver King to Florence or a similar route, in the early 1890s – time frame? Stageline name, period of operation, etc.

Does anyone know who could have ended up with the alleged map that Wagoner drew? Storm tells us the map he used in his publication was cleaned up (Almost certainly by him)

Is Jesse the source or is it some of Fred’s Mormon friends? Hint? I know there is a lot more of the Morman story than I'm privey too.

Garry

 

[cuzimloony]

To me all this seems a small conspiracy to keep people afar from Miner's Needle area. If few smart guys who came out of the blue lately, believe can outsmart the old mountain jackals, then good luck to them. Maybe they would find out in this process, from where the goldfish is farting.

6:55 & 12:22. Make sure you go into your youtube video settings and watch this in 4K.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I’m always interested in the veracity and provenance of a story. Has anyone found any documents, census, deeds, newspaper articles, etc. that hint Wagoner ever lived or that this may have been an alias?

Where did the spelling Waggoner come from?

Two of the players in the story are Fred Mullins and his son Jesse Mullins. Fred was born & died (March 1849- February 21, 1921). Jessie was born & died (November 7, 1875-January 17, 1959)

Any Wagoner stories orally passed down, would seem to have originated with Fred Mullins but he was dead by 1921, So Storm and all the other authors certainly didn’t get the story from the horse’s mouth or anywhere close.

Did Fred Mullins drive a stage from the Silver King to Florence or a similar route, in the early 1890s – time frame? Stageline name, period of operation, etc.

Does anyone know who could have ended up with the alleged map that Wagoner drew? Storm tells us the map he used in his publication was cleaned up (Almost certainly by him)

Is Jesse the source or is it some of Fred’s Mormon friends? Hint? I know there is a lot more of the Morman story than I'm privey too.

Garry

Garry,
Just a quick post...glad to see you posting...check out the email string between you and I from April of 2024...reviewing this will give some background on what I believe is the provenance of this particular story...even though our discussion was on another story, it's related to the same source. I can elaborate further via email if you're at all interested

 

[cuzimloony]

If anyone is curious about the "off trail" route back to Peralta TH, I followed the wash here in purple until it met back up with the trail. Probably 7 or 8 waterfalls in this stretch of various heights and lengths..... It was quite beautiful.

 

[skyhawk1251]

I know that some prospectors use Google Earth to look for outcroppings/ledges, sometimes with success. I'll use the Whiskey Spring area as an example for the geologic formations that I think might attract the eyes of a prospector searching for potential sites for on-the-ground explorations. I'm not saying here that I see bona fide outcroppings/ledges in the images provided below. I only see possible folding and, maybe, faulting that has formed raised ridges in the terrain, and where outcroppings/ledges could be exposed. I would think that those kind of places would be given primary importance in planning any exploratory trips. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In the images below, I see possible folding centered between the red lines.

 

[cuzimloony]

I know that some prospectors use Google Earth to look for outcroppings/ledges, sometimes with success. I'll use the Whiskey Spring area as an example for the geologic formations that I think might attract the eyes of a prospector searching for potential sites for on-the-ground explorations. I'm not saying here that I see bona fide outcroppings/ledges in the images provided below. I only see possible folding and, maybe, faulting that has formed raised ridges in the terrain, and where outcroppings/ledges could be exposed. I would think that those kind of places would be given primary importance in planning any exploratory trips. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In the images below, I see possible folding centered between the red lines.

View attachment 2182478

View attachment 2182479

These are the lessons that I need.....