Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

[gollum]

Why would Noss not photograph the stacks of bars if they existed? Photos would certainly help prove his claims. It's not like the "treasure room" was a big secret - he was constantly promoting its existence. The "accidental" cave-in was a terrific excuse for not being able to produce any evidence. Of course, the bait bars (refined from the copper bars), failing their attempted legal sale, were then apparently used for a number of dog and pony shows, helping to entice people to invest in Noss's "recovery" scheme.

The government? I don't buy anything the government states, for any reason. Your mileage may vary.

Doc didnt need definitive proof of anything until after the Noss's were kicked off the claim after WSMR opened up.

Think about it, if YOU found a cave full of gold bars, would you take pics of them? I certainly wouldn't. If I know the location of the cave, and the bars in it, why do I need to prove anything to anyone else? I may show a bar or two to someone many years after I had removed them from the cave. That is all Doc needed. Remember, one of the Camp Notekeepers was secretly working for the Federal Government. If there were pics of the bars floating around, think she wouldn't have leaked them to her bosses? Lots of downside with very little upside to Doc taking pictures.

Mike

 

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[JohnWhite]

Doc didnt need definitive proof of anything until after the Noss's were kicked off the claim after WSMR opened up.

Think about it, if YOU found a cave full of gold bars, would you take pics of them? I certainly wouldn't. If I know the location of the cave, and the bars in it, why do I need to prove anything to anyone else? I may show a bar or two to someone many years after I had removed them from the cave. That is all Doc needed. Remember, one of the Camp Notekeepers was secretly working for the Federal Government. If there were pics of the bars floating around, think she wouldn't have leaked them to her bosses? Lots of downside with very little upside to Doc taking pictures.

Mike

It has been said that "A picture is worth a thousand words." Yet what about "Silence is golden."?...lol

Ed T

 

[UncleMatt]

Yes, I would definitely take pictures of stacks of gold bars. And then I would take every last one of them.

 

[sdcfia]

Doc didnt need definitive proof of anything until after the Noss's were kicked off the claim after WSMR opened up.

Think about it, if YOU found a cave full of gold bars, would you take pics of them? I certainly wouldn't. If I know the location of the cave, and the bars in it, why do I need to prove anything to anyone else? I may show a bar or two to someone many years after I had removed them from the cave. That is all Doc needed. Remember, one of the Camp Notekeepers was secretly working for the Federal Government. If there were pics of the bars floating around, think she wouldn't have leaked them to her bosses? Lots of downside with very little upside to Doc taking pictures.

Mike

Yes, and her notes, based on close daily monitoring of the Noss Victorio Peak "recovery operation", indicated that Noss was a fraud, ie, he was lying about the treasure room. The government had been trying to nail Noss for Gold Act violations for years but there was never evidence enough to do it.

The bait bars (copper bars recovered from the Caballos and refined into higher value gold bars) are likely all the gold that Noss had, at least as documented by the factual circumstantial evidence provided in Gold House 1. I'm wondering if the entire Victorio Peak operation wasn't just a waiting game Noss was playing in order to grift money until the Gold Act might be rescinded, if it ever would be. This would serve to divert attention away from the Caballos, where he presumably knew the location of some sort of large cache. Noss was clever, as most career criminals are.

While we're on the subject of facts, let's look at the alleged "93,000,000 ounces of gold in Noss's treasure room." That's about 2,900 metric tonnes. That's equal to the entire estimated worldwide production for 2018, several multiples of worldwide yearly production on the Noss years, and arguably, many, many multiples of yearly recovery from pre-technology era of gold mining. Do you have an explanation of where such a quantity of gold may have come from? Do you really believe the government recovered this much "Spanish treasure"?

 

[gollum]

Yes, and her notes, based on close daily monitoring of the Noss Victorio Peak "recovery operation", indicated that Noss was a fraud, ie, he was lying about the treasure room. The government had been trying to nail Noss for Gold Act violations for years but there was never evidence enough to do it.

The bait bars (copper bars recovered from the Caballos and refined into higher value gold bars) are likely all the gold that Noss had, at least as documented by the factual circumstantial evidence provided in Gold House 1. I'm wondering if the entire Victorio Peak operation wasn't just a waiting game Noss was playing in order to grift money until the Gold Act might be rescinded, if it ever would be. This would serve to divert attention away from the Caballos, where he presumably knew the location of some sort of large cache. Noss was clever, as most career criminals are.

While we're on the subject of facts, let's look at the alleged "93,000,000 ounces of gold in Noss's treasure room." That's about 2,900 metric tonnes. That's equal to the entire estimated worldwide production for 2018, several multiples of worldwide yearly production on the Noss years, and arguably, many, many multiples of yearly recovery from pre-technology era of gold mining. Do you have an explanation of where such a quantity of gold may have come from? Do you really believe the government recovered this much "Spanish treasure"?

View attachment 1643112

I have absolutely no idea where the gold came from. There was certainly a lot. I will have to recheck Book1 but Doc estimated how many bars were in VP. After WWII, and WSMR was established, did Uncle Sam add some stuff imported from the Philippines and Europe? Maybe.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

I have absolutely no idea where the gold came from. There was certainly a lot. I will have to recheck Book1 but Doc estimated how many bars were in VP. After WWII, and WSMR was established, did Uncle Sam add some stuff imported from the Philippines and Europe? Maybe.

Mike

Now we're getting somewhere. Using Noss as a foil in case of a misstep, war spoils may well have been the "Spanish treasure" fenced through White Sands Missle Range. This makes sense.

 

[gollum]

Now we're getting somewhere. Using Noss as a foil in case of a misstep, war spoils may well have been the "Spanish treasure" fenced through White Sands Missle Range. This makes sense.

It may still make sense without WWII. 93 million troy ounces could have been 93 million troy ounces of DORE (maybe 65% or less).

Regarding the WWII issue:

EUROPE,
We had the Merkers Mine and several other sites where Nazis his loot from Europe and Africa. It would have been difficult, but possible to divert a large chunk to WSMR.

Philippines,
Japanese Prince Chichibu was in charge of Operation Golden Lily. Golden Lily was the Japanese attempt to hide as much of the treasures they looted from all over the Pacific Islands and Asia as they could. At the end of the war, we captured Prince Chichibu's Driver, and as the story goes, he guided members of the US military and Intelligence to most of the hide sites. That loot wasnt as documented as Merkers Mine Stuff, and never saw the light of day. That may have been a big chunk of VP Gold.


Like I said, I'll have to recheck, but I remember Doc estimated in a statement to Ova how many bars were there (in 1937).

Mike

 

[DesertCloak]

That crown is actually Alexandra Feodorovna's emerald tiara. It's well documented in photos and paintings. Look it up on Google images.

 

[Dirt1955]

DesertCloak, you are spot on in your comparison of the 2 crowns. I have a couple questions.
What drove you to comparing the 2 crowns in the first place?
Do you have a theory of your own as to how Doc Noss came into possession of the Crown?
Do you have a theory of where the crown might be today?

Dirt

 

[DesertCloak]

DesertCloak, you are spot on in your comparison of the 2 crowns. I have a couple questions.
What drove you to comparing the 2 crowns in the first place?
Do you have a theory of your own as to how Doc Noss came into possession of the Crown?
Do you have a theory of where the crown might be today?

It seemed unlikely that such an exquisite treasure wouldn't have been painted or photographed at some time in the past. I was also a bit skeptical of Ova's story... so I did an image search.

In 1925-26, the Russian government published a catalog named Russia’s Treasure of Diamonds and Precious Stones by mineralogist A.E. Fersman.

Honestly, I think it's probably a hoax. By the time Ova released this photo, the catalog was in circulation. And if you compare her photo to the catalog, they are identical... not just the tiara, but the photograph itself.

 

[lilhub]

What about the russian china that lady bird wanted out of the peak

 

[sdcfia]

It seemed unlikely that such an exquisite treasure wouldn't have been painted or photographed at some time in the past. I was also a bit skeptical of Ova's story... so I did an image search.

In 1925-26, the Russian government published a catalog named Russia’s Treasure of Diamonds and Precious Stones by mineralogist A.E. Fersman.

Honestly, I think it's probably a hoax. By the time Ova released this photo, the catalog was in circulation. And if you compare her photo to the catalog, they are identical... not just the tiara, but the photograph itself.

Noss found some copper bars hidden somewhere in the Caballos. Then he parlayed those bars into the Victorio Peak scam. Once he "accidentally" blew up access to the "treasure room", the race was on. The man was very clever, as many career sociopathic criminals are, and presented plausible lies. The bigger the lie, the more likely people want to believe it. His luck ran out with Charlie Ryan.

The US military criminals who looted Europe after WWII saw Victorio Peak as a "golden" opportunity. They moved their plunder into the VP caves and used Noss's story as a perfect cover: "We found Spanish treasure on our military reservation. It belongs to the government." Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[Dirt1955]

Noss found some copper bars hidden somewhere in the Caballos. Then he parlayed those bars into the Victorio Peak scam. Once he "accidentally" blew up access to the "treasure room", the race was on. The man was very clever, as many career sociopathic criminals are, and presented plausible lies. The bigger the lie, the more likely people want to believe it. His luck ran out with Charlie Ryan.

The US military criminals who looted Europe after WWII saw Victorio Peak as a "golden" opportunity. They moved their plunder into the VP caves and used Noss's story as a perfect cover: "We found Spanish treasure on our military reservation. It belongs to the government." Of course, I could be wrong.

Or...you could be right.

 

[whiskeyrat]

Noss found some copper bars hidden somewhere in the Caballos. Then he parlayed those bars into the Victorio Peak scam. Once he "accidentally" blew up access to the "treasure room", the race was on. The man was very clever, as many career sociopathic criminals are, and presented plausible lies. The bigger the lie, the more likely people want to believe it. His luck ran out with Charlie Ryan.

The US military criminals who looted Europe after WWII saw Victorio Peak as a "golden" opportunity. They moved their plunder into the VP caves and used Noss's story as a perfect cover: "We found Spanish treasure on our military reservation. It belongs to the government." Of course, I could be wrong.

why would anyone hide copper bars?

 

[whiskeyrat]

you all are going to make my head explode

 

[whiskeyrat]

or maybe its the whiskey.
just got back from 2 weeks in the caballos.
a few more chapters for my book: "100 places its not"
wr

 

[sdcfia]

why would anyone hide copper bars?

The bars carried a couple ounces of gold and some silver values. They were likely mined at Santa Rita del Cobre in the late 1700s or early 1800s, meant to be shipped by packtrain down to the coin mint in Chihuahua. Why were they cached in the Caballos? Good question, probably with a few possible answers. I wonder if perhaps somebody thought the bars were gold and hijacked the packtrain south of Santa Rita and took it on the old trail south of Cookes Peak east to the Rio Grande. There is not much documentation available from those early days in Santa Rita. One thing's for sure - the Noss assay report (reproduced in Gold House 1) very closely matches the known ore values from the early days at the copper mine.

 

[autofull]

hey there desert cloak, that is some superb research. no one ever identified the crown. i looked up her name and it sure does match. time line could be possible. the research i did stated that in 1922 this tiara was either sold or broken up for parts. so that takes care of the carlotta time line. i viewed a photo of the recovered czar jewelry , which said it was taken in 1922, on a huge table and that tiara is present.. the scenarios are maddening so, i doubt he could have afforded to purchase it as salting material. was the supposed noss model a fake, the real deal, and if it is , how could it have ended up complete and over here. i highly doubt that it is a replica cause who could craft it without the real one as a model, or, is, was it, a royal replica to fool someone. the other possibilities are sold, smuggled in to a collector here but then you would think its value would nothing compared to a validated item. ya got me on this one. i still hold to the belief that doc was nothing but a con man and the peak had nothing in it and it was a ruse to cover up other findings.

 

[Riverbum]

I know this is a far shot from what Doc was capable of, but I have read that during WWII America held valuable items like gold stocks, jewelry, and national Treasures for many nations to keep safe from Nazi's, I believe Fort Knox held those items. That crown was more towards the WW1 time and well after. Maybe the Russian's asked AMERICA to store them during those troubled times in they're history. Not hard to believe that Uncle Sam was hiding things in Doc's Victorio Peak long before he found the chamber. I don't put anything past our Government. Why didn't Russia ask for these back if thats the case? Because SOOO many were killed during the Communist transition that those who knew were dead.

 

[Garry]

I know this is a far shot from what Doc was capable of, but I have read that during WWII America held valuable items like gold stocks, jewelry, and national Treasures for many nations to keep safe from Nazi's, I believe Fort Knox held those items. That crown was more towards the WW1 time and well after. Maybe the Russian's asked AMERICA to store them during those troubled times in they're history. Not hard to believe that Uncle Sam was hiding things in Doc's Victorio Peak long before he found the chamber. I don't put anything past our Government. Why didn't Russia ask for these back if thats the case? Because SOOO many were killed during the Communist transition that those who knew were dead.

I'm not up to speed on all of the artifacts but my understanding from DesertCloak's post is that the Noss's only produced a picture of the crown and they never produced the actual crown. Does someone have a photo of the crown they can post with Ova or Doc in the photo? Has the crown disappeared from the public domain? No one knows where or if the the crown has survived?

Ditto on the superb reasearch by DesertCloak!

Thanks, Garry