Tumlinson Profile

[Oroblanco]

On reproductions - personally I see nothing wrong with making, or selling reproductions, so long as they are sold AS reproductions. This might be an avenue of a possible side income for the Superstitions Museum, if they were to have copies of the stone maps made for sale. I believe they would sell like hotcakes.

Reproductions can also be a very bad thing, when sold as the genuine article. One peek at the offerings of ancient coins on Ebay will point this up quickly, for a very large number of reproductions are offered there and as the genuine article, having a very negative effect on the ancient coin collector market. Were someone to start producing copies of the stone maps and selling them as the genuine article, things could take a turn down hill.

Now that I think on this, I would bet that the Museum could produce copies of many of the treasure maps that are 'public domain' such as the stone maps or the Perfil Mapa, perhaps on parchment paper or other fancy type that would have the proper look, to sell as decorative items. I am sure there is a market for such items.
Oroblanco

 

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[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I don't buy that kind of trash. I did not buy the heart, it was a gift. I am not following Jim anywhere.

"There have been other Dutch Hunters who have created stories and artifacts, as well as "signs" in the mountains, in order to attract others to help finance their real search, based on a fantastic (false) treasure tale."

Jim did not claim his copies were original, nor did he use them to finance his searches. There are other bull$#!t "artifacts" I could have used for an example, but Hal had asked me to post the heart.
Seemed like the right opportunity to do that. The original "Latin Heart", IMHO, is a complete hoax.
Feel pretty much the same way about the crosses, and the "King's Code".


"You obviously distrust,and display within your posts great bitterness towards folks like us,as well as with those who disagree with your conclusions or have alternate theories backed by physical and/or photographic evidence."

Wayne, I don't owe you $#!t! If you want to think that's how I feel, nothing I can say will change your mind. I have treated you with respect and hospitality when we have met. You often come after me personally, thinking I am too dumb to realize the slights.

I don't know who you consider "us", so maybe you're right. I have many friends, actually most of them, who have alternate theories to mine. That has never bothered me in the least, but I don't just nod my head in agreement. If that bothers you, maybe you should move your theories to just around your kitchen table. Alternate theories are what makes sites like this work.

I am not bitter, in the least. Due to some physical problems, I am often short on patience with what I consider foolish claims. As you can see, that also includes your claims about me. I don't mind admitting you could be right, and if others who I consider friends start telling me the same thing it may be time for me to back off posting.

Thanks for the analysis,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I have nothing against reproductions at all. House is full of them. Does that make me a "people like me"?

The Knife Is Reproduction By A Gifted Knapper. The Apache Pitcher Is Cir. 1890

It's the first person who created the "artifact" (to deceive) that I hold in disdain.

As for Jim Hatt, you may want to look back on who first announced his health problems and asked members to keep him in their thoughts.

This is, pretty much, the same as what I posted here:

[All,

I understand that Jim Hatt has had some serious health problems of late. Despite our long standing war of words, I wish him a speedy recovery and zero complications. Being in the health industry, Carolyn and I see way too much suffering up close.

For those of you who know Jim or have exchanged information with him in the past, I imagine he could use some words of encouragement and good wishes right now.

Jim, good luck at this challenging time in your life.

Joe Ribaudo]

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
Just the front side is difficult to read. Specifically the words that are dark as compared to the ones that look scratched over. If not a higher resolution than a larger image would help... I have limited vision in one eye so it may just be me. Sorry for that. Anything is better than the drawing I have. Thanks again for filling in the back story.

Oroblanco,
When I last visited with the staff at the museum I asked if they would consider permitting me to make and sell 1/4 scale replicas for visitors who wanted to take something home. It did not get too far but I think that it is a great way to raise funds for the museum. The display case is not exactly what I would consider museum quality and should be updated.

somehiker,
Could you explain the 5th stone I have heard about another stone but only bits and pieces. Is that the Latin Heart or another stone? Thanks!

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
My comments were made because of the manner in which you framed the post.
That, coincidental with making the statement :

"There have been other Dutch Hunters who have created stories and artifacts, as well as "signs" in the mountains, in order to attract others to help finance their real search, based on a fantastic (false) treasure tale.

Here is an example:"

Where you then post photos of Jim's replica Latin Heart as that "example".

Many people are well aware of Jim's having made replicas of both the heart and the stone maps,and you have made many derogatory comments about his motives in doing so....despite your having received a replica gratis as well.
My concern lies with the potential of ,based on your use of this replica as an example of such deception ,readers of this thread to associate Jim Hatt with what was actually done by others.

You possess and exhibit high intelligence.So do many other who post on this and the other forums.
You take great care in composing your posts,which express your beliefs clearly and as you often say,as you see it.
You therefore should know how falsehoods can be created by such associations.
I am glad that you clearly absolved Jim from any connection with such deceptions in your followup post.

Jim had posted the news of his health on DUSA shortly before you posted the news on T-Net and Ron's site.
That post was made while I was at work,where only inter-company access is available.Some of us had already been informed by Jim himself that he was very close to heading out.Regardless,even if I had seen Jim's communication on DUSA,I would have left it to him to copy that post to T-Net or a request to disseminate the news,out of my respect for Jim,as was my practice with his previous updates.The others may have felt the same way.

Nice collection,and it does make you at least an honorary member of the "people like me" club.
Makes it hard to understand why you equate those who make and sell such replicas (disclosing,like Jim,that they are only replicas) with those who "may" use self created "artifacts" for personal gain.While Jim himself believed in the existence of the original,he did not declare this as "fact",even to those who also believed in the Latin Heart as part of the set.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe that is one 'beautiful' knife..drool It would be perfect to trim oro's scraggly, soup stained, chin/ face follage.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe:
My comments were made because of the manner in which you framed the post.
That, coincidental with making the statement :

"There have been other Dutch Hunters who have created stories and artifacts, as well as "signs" in the mountains, in order to attract others to help finance their real search, based on a fantastic (false) treasure tale.

Here is an example:"

Where you then post photos of Jim's replica Latin Heart as that "example".

Many people are well aware of Jim's having made replicas of both the heart and the stone maps,and you have made many derogatory comments about his motives in doing so....despite your having received a replica gratis as well.
My concern lies with the potential of ,based on your use of this replica as an example of such deception ,readers of this thread to associate Jim Hatt with what was actually done by others.

You possess and exhibit high intelligence.So do many other who post on this and the other forums.
You take great care in composing your posts,which express your beliefs clearly and as you often say,as you see it.
You therefore should know how falsehoods can be created by such associations.
I am glad that you clearly absolved Jim from any connection with such deceptions in your followup post.

Jim had posted the news of his health on DUSA shortly before you posted the news on T-Net and Ron's site.
That post was made while I was at work,where only inter-company access is available.Some of us had already been informed by Jim himself that he was very close to heading out.Regardless,even if I had seen Jim's communication on DUSA,I would have left it to him to copy that post to T-Net or a request to disseminate the news,out of my respect for Jim,as was my practice with his previous updates.The others may have felt the same way.

Nice collection,and it does make you at least an honorary member of the "people like me" club.
Makes it hard to understand why you equate those who make and sell such replicas (disclosing,like Jim,that they are only replicas) with those who "may" use self created "artifacts" for personal gain.While Jim himself believed in the existence of the original,he did not declare this as "fact",even to those who also believed in the Latin Heart as part of the set.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

Once again, you assume too much. I never said the gift came from Jim. The heart was not a gift from him......to me.

I can see where you might assume I would personally attack a man who has passed away. After all, I am just such a low life.....to many of you. I have been accused of just about every nasty bit of work you can think of, since 2002. I was even accused of cheating a man out of money, over a business deal when we had never even met each other.

After awhile, you just wonder where the next lie/accusation/attack is going to come from. Is it your intention to pick up that fight? No need for folks who are, at least, friendly acquaintances to do that as there are plenty out there who have never stopped.

I am aware that you think I brought it on myself.....by fighting back, but that's just my nature. Let's just get back on topic and I will try to control my evil nature.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I have been collecting "Native American" artifacts for many years. Never picked up a single arrowhead off the ground, but pay for good reproductions.

We have a street fair every year in Lake Havasu City, and this one knapper came for a number of them.
I couldn't resist this example, even though it was a little pricey.

Thanks for the compliment on my......good taste/choice.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Hal:
All there really is,or has been published to date,are "pieces" of the whole story.
As told,and to the best of my knowledge,the Latin Heart was found in the same area where Travis Tumlinson found the other four stones.
He first found the H/P stone,in Dec. 1948 according to Robert Tumlinson, protruding from the side of a cut in the embankment which allows one to descend from the cliff above down to Queen Creek.
This cut still exists at the location shown on the map shown here....http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.../peck/Peck-Brower - January 5, 1965.pdf...and is along the existing fenceline about 20 yds east of the present highway embankment.Cattle use it,and it was probably excavated for that purpose originally.IMO this was when the corner of the H/P stone became exposed.The fact that one area of the stone is worn supports this IMO.
Also according to Robert(Uncle Bob) Tumlinson,in the fall of 1949 while on another trip to Texas and having studied the H/P stone for some time,Travis and his wife and Uncle Bob returned to the same location.
While Bob went into town to have a scope repaired,Travis did some more looking around (I suspect looking for a marker of some kind,possibly described in one of his grandfather's waybills)and with some digging found the two trail stones,face to face about 8" down.Uncle Bob,in his description,mentions that after wisking the dirt from the trail stones he noticed the empty heart pocket.The Heart Stone was found after digging a further 8".There is an excavation evident at that location,currently about a foot deep and partly overgrown.Cubfan took GPS readings at all of the various excavation locations while we were there two weeks ago.When he sends them to me,I will plot them on a GE snap and post the results....maybe

Al Reser,a close friend of Jim Hatt and other well known dutchhunters told Jim his account of how the Latin Heart was found.
"He told me the story about how he had learned from Charlie Miller exactly where Tumlinson had found the Stone Maps and that several other people also knew about that location. According to Al, one of them went back to that spot years after Tumlinson gave up on finding any more stone map pieces, and that person, being a little more persistent and searching a wider area than Tumlinson had, found the Latin Heart lying right on top of the ground."...http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta2.html
Bill Hidden,another local is also mentioned as a witness to the original Latin Heart.Bill Hidden has,as I recall,been also identified as the one who made the tracings of the original which,unlike the stone from which the primary heart was made,is described as made from a brittle,black stone.
Tim might recognize that description....

Also within Jim Hatt's article is the story of how he first obtained his own copy of the Latin Heart.

"For months I tried to locate someone else who had a copy of the heart other than the one in Ward’s book, then one afternoon I received a phone call from Tom Kollenborn, a local well-known historian and author, who knew I was searching for a copy of the Latin Heart other than the one that was in Bob Ward’s book. During the conversation he announced that he had located a copy, which was in the possession of a friend, whom he did not name, but said was currently living in Texas. Within three days Tom presented me with the copies of the Latin Heart shown above.".

That copy has some differences....apparently

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
If you were to read my words more carefully,you will notice that I did not say that you had received the replica from Jim.Only that you had received it free of charge.
I assumed that you,by your choice of words,had received it from someone other than Jim.As my deliberate choice of words in this case gave you some justification to assume that I was suggesting that you were given the replica by Jim,so too do some of the statements within the letters generate the wrong conclusions IMHO.
Those statements,if they do not agree with the preponderance of evidence,should as I say,be taken with a grain of salt.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
The basket in your photograph of the knife is absolutely beautiful.
Regarding Jim and his passing, it was a loss that we all share. I was not one of Jim's close friends, however I was inspired by our conversations and encouraged by him to keep moving forward... towards a solution. Perhaps that is the best we can do, that is to keep on keeping on. I hope that you chose to continue. I believe that 2012 will be an amazing year for those who are part of this incredible mystery.

somehiker,
Thank you for posting that bit of information. I had heard of the Black Heart, but I understood it to be a third heart completely independent of the Latin Heart. Did I get that wrong? I am looking forward to your posting the locations on GE!

 

[gollum]

Hal,

The last PM I got from you was Sep 19th. Maybe you should make sure you sent that to me and not someone else.

Regarding Travis' Religion, I have no idea.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

"The basket in your photograph of the knife is absolutely beautiful. Appears to be an work from the 1930-40's??"

As I posted just under that picture, the pitcher is from around 1890. It's called a "tuss".

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
As I wrote before, my vision is less than perfect. I honestly did not see the subtitle, but 1890? the condition is fantastic. I have avoided collecting native American works simply because there are so many sites here in the Delaware river basing and many of them become exposed after heavy rains. Far too tempting. But I have a fine collection of Persian pottery from the Qajar period 1785 -1925. No legal issues with that addiction and they turn up in the most unusual places. Anyway, thank you for posting the letter.

Gollum,
Thank you for responding. Any advice on how to identify the Tumlinson family religion (Travis & his father)? It may not sound relevant at the moment, however I believe that it may explain quite a few things. Again thank you! And yes, the email was dated Sept. 19th. Never heard back from you, which is honestly not a problem. I was just looking for your opinion.

 

[somehiker]

Hal:
Considering the chronology mostly true,only two hearts have been found.The primary Heart Stone (reddish in colour),found buried under the two Trail stones by Travis Tumlinson,and the Latin Heart (black in colour),found laying on the ground some distance from where the other four stones were buried, by two others searching a larger area at a later date.
The Latin Heart is what has been referred to in the Brower/Love/Kriewald to Peck correspondence as the fifth stone or map.
I suspect,based on examination of various accounts,that it was Charlie Miller and Robert Tumlinson (Uncle Bob) who found the Latin Heart.
Here are some excerpts from the letters published on Garry's website which mention the "fifth" stone.

Regards:SH.

PS: I know that you are searching for evidence of Masonic involvement in the Stone Maps,but have you considered the possibility of a group of corrupt officials and officers within the Spanish Government and Military (during the Spanish Colonial Period) being responsible for the maps as well as any treasure they may lead to ?

 

[gollum]

Hal,

Your Sep 19th PM has nothing to do with Travis' Religion. It was about the H/P Stone.

Mike

 

[somehiker]

Hal:
Additionally,just so you know.
In his book,"Ripples of Lost Echos",Bob Ward published copies of tracings of the Latin Heart,which he had in his possession.
Ward also made a claim to having copies of three hearts.
The tracings which he included in that book differ (according to Jim) from the copies provided to Jim Hatt by Tom Kollenborn,which originated with the unnamed person in Texas.
I suspect those differences are not included in the tracings or the replicas which Jim had circulated.
There is also a taped interview with a witness to the existence of the Latin Heart.

On your question of Travis' military service,I have yet to see anything relevant other than his being a descendent of a family which contributed men to other historical wars.Usually pride in such history leads to military volunteerism.
Travis was definitely a police officer,late in life,as mentioned in the letters as well.
It is known by Peck and the others that Travis had changed jobs to become a Policeman.
The letters make no mention of him serving as a "special constable" in the fruit camp.


Regards:SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

Wayne, that last posted extract does refer to Travis working for Diamond Fruit Company, which may be where he was employed as a sort of over-seer for the migrant workers.

I wonder why Bob Tumlinson seems to have been accused of lying? If he were, one has to wonder about that statement made concerning Travis being "crazy to sell" - can that be taken as a gospel truth, or was Bob not being totally honest about this too?

Oroblanco

 

[EE THr]

Seeing as the "Peralta" Stone Maps are being counted, how about the sixth one?


From page 9, caption to drawings---






This story is saying that there was a "yellowish" heart stone (which can be seen to be marked differently than the red one).

Notice that, among other differrences, the confounding "Peak" is missing from this heart stone, entirely!


ref: Are the Peralta Stone Maps a Hoax?

 

[somehiker]

Roy:
Everything said has to be taken in the proper context and read completely as well as referenced to other known documentation.
It was mentioned that Travis was an employee of Diamond Fruit,but does not say in what capacity.
This seems to be common knowledge in many of the various historical accounts.I have no reason to doubt that this is true.
Claims that he was some kind of security guard or "special constable" for the company have been made by various authors,with little or nothing it seems in documentation to anchor those claims.We now know,from what is contained in Gary's documents,that Tumlinson in fact,left Diamond Fruit to become a Policeman.
We also have the newspaper photo of Tumlinson ,in police uniform and at an award ceremony as additional documentation.
Could be that Travis told some people in AJ,when he first started spending time there,that he worked in the fruit picking/packaging industry back home.
Later,after joining the force,he told others he was a police officer.Later,the two trades were combined in subsequent stories.

Seems pretty clear to me,taken in context,that Bob felt that Travis was doing the wrong thing in having sold the stones to a treasure hunting group.
An assumption on his part,as he had only been told that a "group" now owned the stones.
Although Love and Bower found him to be deceptive,they also noted that he obviously still wanted to cash in on any treasure which the maps could lead to.
Likely this greed was driving his attempts to deceive them...as well as his having done things behind Travis' back.


Regards:SH.