Tumlinson Profile

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

My best guess on the pillowcase would be one of two possibilities <snip>

This is what I meant about the cloth duplicate very easily growing into a new, separate and un-founded legend; the source that mentions it does not say it IS a pillowcase, only that it is the SIZE of a pillowcase. Once we tack the name "pillowcase" on to it, then new assumptions lead to new (and erroneous) conclusions, like the pillowcase must have been used to pack the stone tablets in it, etc when really all we had to start with was a cloth duplicate, which may have been the original or may have been a copy of the stones, the size of a pillowcase but not stated to BE a pillow case. I know that I appear to be "picky" about this and I don't mean to be, just that it looks like this cloth duplicate is quickly developing into a new (and false) legend just from our speculations.

Have to agree in part, and disagree in part with Don Jose, disagree that Reavis is a logical origin for several reasons, firstly that no Peralta name appears on them and secondly that there is no mention of any stone maps in his court case, or before Tumlinson purportedly found them for that matter. I agree that it is not 100% established that the stone maps relate to the Superstitions, in fact they will fit several other areas of the southwest, one perfectly in fact, and it was an assumption that led to people thinking they must apply to the Superstitions when they were not even found in that mountain range but outside of them. No offense to Joe, for his theory of fitting the stone maps works about the best I have seen applied to the Superstitions, but it may well be a case of shoe-fitting; especially since none of the obvious landmarks of the Superstitions are clearly and undeniably demarcated on the stone maps. Where is Four Peaks, Weavers Needle, Miners Needle, Picket Post and several others, shown unmistakably on the stone maps?

As for dismissing Tumlinson as the creator of the stone maps, regardless of whatever conversation has been reported from him or about him etc, are we to just conclude that it was purely coincidental that Tumlinson had a habit of carving stones, and with Spanish treasure themes to boot? I am sorry but this is just too much for me, as much as I still hold Storm as a potential candidate, the fact that Tumlinson did in fact carve Spanish treasure themed stones is hard to dismiss as pure coincidence for me.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS Mike we missed you at the rendezvous, hope you will make it to one some one of these years before we are all gone!

 

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[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"No offense to Joe, for his theory of fitting the stone maps works about the best I have seen applied to the Superstitions, but it may well be a case of shoe-fitting; especially since none of the obvious landmarks of the Superstitions are clearly and undeniably demarcated on the stone maps. Where is Four Peaks, Weavers Needle, Miners Needle, Picket Post and several others, shown unmistakably on the stone maps?"

No offense to you, but I would need to see your candidate for another location before scrapping mine. Can't tell you how many folks have a better location but never show it. On the other hand, many have sent their theories to me for my opinion. I still like mine best.

To be on the ground and see Four Peaks, you need to be on the main mountain. The view is there while everything else, for the most part, is laid out below you.

As for landmarks, there is the heart, the canyons, the peaks (dots) and the trails, which are all plainly marked on the Stone Maps and can be followed on a topographic map or on the ground.

Once again, without seeing what you are talking about, your claim for matching up the Stone Maps is just one more of hundreds. Not that I don't believe you believe, just that I have seen too many of these kinds of announcements which usually turn out.......kinda like.

Major thing for me is that the canyons/trails must be in the right place, order and spatially correct.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

No offense to you, but I would need to see your candidate for another location before scrapping mine.

It is not "my" own personal candidate, and I am not at liberty to present that site publicly. Another treasure hunter has the site matched to the stone maps which I mentioned and when he is ready to 'show the world' I am sure that it will be public. But for an example we can speak of publicly, the Dillmans' site in Utah seems to fit the stone maps fairly well and they have found some interesting things at their site - though no major treasures that I am aware of. Another interesting match up can be found in New Mexico, where we do have historical Peraltas and mining as well. The Peralta stone maps are generic enough that they can be successfully fitted to over a half dozen different areas of the southwest, especially since we do not have any major landmarks on them which are beyond dispute as to what they represent. If only there were a Four Peaks marked clearly on there for example, we could then rule out Utah and New Mexico with some confidence or if Devils Head were clearly marked we could say the Colorado solution is probably right. Now that I think of it, that Colorado theory even had some very good (known, not lost) gold and silver mines that seemed to line up; may have to see if I can find that again.

What is remarkable is the sheer number of different solutions to the stone maps, no two of which end up at the same "X". That fact alone is a red flag for trying to present any solution as "the" correct one, without something substantial to show at the 'X' all solutions are really ending up with the same results - nothing. Time will tell if the solution mentioned that is not in the Superstitions shall produce anything in the line of treasure(s) or if it is just another happy case of shoe fitting. Even with your sealed mine at the end of the trail, is it truly a sealed mine, or was it a hole dug by someone who followed the trail out in the same way you did, expecting to find something at that spot? I will take your word that it is a sealed mine, as I am not willing to take the hike (a bit far from home) at the moment.

The heart may be a direct landmark that orients the correct place to use the stone maps BTW - for there is a famous Valley of Hearts in Spanish lore. I have serious doubts that the Valley of Hearts mentioned by early Spanish explorers is or was located in the Superstitions, in fact may be below the border with Mexico. Without getting too specific that is one possible area where the stone maps will also fit, though a bit problematic for those of us in the USA.

Why do you suppose there are none of the obvious Superstitions landmarks clearly marked on the stone maps, if they are intended for use there? Doesn't it seem logical that at least one should be marked, whether Weavers Needle or any other? This is one of the issues for matching the stone maps with the Superstitions, for me.

Oroblanco

 

[Hal Croves]

"I have had a set of those pictures for many years. They cover the Superstition Range. My Uncle, Chuck Ribaudo, had them originally."

cactusjumper
What size and scale are your uncles photos? I am wondering if they were distributed as a standard size or if they were ordered to a specific scale and dimension. I know that you believe that a topo could have been used to make the stone charts, however there are a few details inscribed into the stones that can only be extracted from an aerial photograph. OK, this is based on my positioning of the stones which I will share on my other thread.

Oroblanco is correct. Coincidences in life are few and the fact that Travis had a talent for carving stones is a red flag. But I agree with Gollum and can not find the motivation for such a hoax. Travis appears to have had a true passion for the stones... there was even an argument with his uncle if I am not mistaken. That and the fact that Travis never made money from the stones tells me that he believed in their potential as a set of treasure maps. We are overlooking something which is why I began this thread. And the reports of a copy in cloth or some other similar material, well one would need material the size of a pillow case to trace each individual stone. If Travis did carve the stone charts I am guessing that it was an artistic attempt to better understand confidential information that he obtained from his father or grandfather. But how did he make the connection to the Superstitions? It would have been impossible without someone providing the general location.

I am still looking for details concerning Travis's life. Anyone know if he served in the military? What about his religion... any ideas? Again, my goal is to assemble a profile of the man on this thread. There are quite a few brilliant minds on this site and once the profile of Travis is complete I am guessing that something will be uncovered.

 

[somehiker]

Although I am reluctant to post anything to this thread,due to Hal's habit of deleting such topics,I will give it one more shot.
Hoping my effort and time is not to waste.

Cloth Maps?
Who would consider a painting of "Old Glory",for example,to be a "perfect replica" of the original flag ?

This is the portion of the letter from Grace Mitchell to Bernice McGee where she mentions her and Clarence Mitchell having been shown...by Travis Tumlinson...a "replica" of the maps..."perfect"....on a "white cloth the size of a pillow case".At this point in time,June 1965,Grace is still using the pseudonym "Jack" when talking about Travis,even with Bernice.

What this means to me,is that Travis Tumlinson had at some point,a set of "perfect replicas",possibly of only the Trail Maps,and likewise made from stone,which he displayed/placed upon a white cloth for the Mitchells to view.
Grace,in this exchange,also mentions an "original" photo of maps "2 & 3" against a background "board wall of tongue and groove material".
To me,this means that prior to June of 1965,map #1....the H/P Stone was known to the Mitchell's.
No mention is made of a 1939 Oldsmobile in the photo.

Phil Leasman,a relative from Texas,is also mentioned as having "searched for years".

Some other research findings and background here..........http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=666

Notwithstanding the foregoing....
IF a perfect drawing of the maps on cloth did exist,in Tumlinson's collection....?
Could this cloth ? have been one of the "waybills to other treasures" which John (Peg Leg) Tumlinson had collected...according to J.F.Dobie/Coronado's children: tales of lost mines and buried treasures of the Southwest pg.62.
If so,perhaps the cloth also had a corresponding map or list of directions pinpointing the location where Travis searched for and found the stones.

A name of one or more prominent landmarks,as shown on old Spanish maps of the region,on such a waybill,would indicate the area to which the stone maps would apply.

Regards:SH.

 

[sgtfda]

Why a hole in the stones? Perhaps something goes into the hole to line up the stones to the lay of the land. Lined up on a landmark you thus have the trail location. Just a thought.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I am not saying that it's not possible that the Stone Maps will fit somewhere else in the world, or even on the moon for that matter.

People have been showing me their "Stone Maps" for over forty years now. In all that time, I have never seen one that comes even close to mine.....other than the original.

Setting aside the physical maps themselves, as evidence, here's a big clue. The maps were not found in New Mexico, Utah, Mexico, Texas, Colorado or New York. They were found in Arizona.

The were not found in Tucson, Flagstaff, Wickenburg, Tombstone, Lake Havasu City or even Phoenix. They were found on the edge of the Superstition Mountains. Good trick......I suppose they were just trying to fool us rubes.

As soon as I see something better or as good, I will be the first to say...WOW!
Nice map! Actually, I have said that many times.....just trying to be polite.

I don't doubt you have something you believe is just as good or even better.
Each and every person who has ever shown me "their" map, thought the same thing.

Been a lot of people over the years that believed they had the answer to many of the treasure stories in the Superstitions. Many were willing to bet their lives, and did, on those theories. Now that's conviction.

I no longer have a dog in this fight, so I feel I can look at those other theories with objectivity. After all, I didn't find any treasure with my map. I sincerely hope someone else uses their map as a true waybill to a fortune.

Maybe your friend is on that trail.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I am not saying that it's not possible that the Stone Maps will fit somewhere else in the world, or even on the moon for that matter. dontknow

People have been showing me their "Stone Maps" for over forty years now. In all that time, I have never seen one that comes even close to mine.....other than the original.

Setting aside the physical maps themselves, as evidence, here's a big clue. The maps were not found in New Mexico, Utah, Mexico, Texas, Colorado or New York. They were found in Arizona. sign13

The were not found in Tucson, Flagstaff, Wickenburg, Tombstone, Lake Havasu City or even Phoenix. They were found on the edge of the Superstition Mountains. sign13 Good trick......I suppose they were just trying to fool us rubes.

As soon as I see something better or as good, I will be the first to say...WOW!
Nice map! Actually, I have said that many times.....just trying to be polite.

I don't doubt you have something you believe is just as good or even better.
Each and every person who has ever shown me "their" map, thought the same thing.

Been a lot of people over the years that believed they had the answer to many of the treasure stories in the Superstitions. Many were willing to bet their lives, and did, on those theories. Now that's conviction. Cry

I no longer have a dog in this fight, so I feel I can look at those other theories with objectivity. After all, I didn't find any treasure with my map. I sincerely hope someone else uses their map as a true waybill to a fortune. icon_thumright

Maybe your friend is on that trail. dontknow

Take care,

Joe

I am not trying to convince you that another theory should replace yours, and it is not my own theory so can not take credit for it or feel responsible to defend it. I was shown it in confidence, and it appears to be a perfect match, but not to the Superstitions. I presume that eventually everyone will see this theory when he chooses to make it public. I don't know what sort of hurdles he has, though different from dealing with the Superstitions Wilderness restrictions it could be quite a mess for all I know.

As to tying the stone maps to the Superstitions, perhaps it might help to raise your lens focus a bit; for example, the site where they were found is not exactly on the edge of the mountains, rather out on the plains. If you 'zoom out' your map a bit, you will see that site is in southern Arizona, and a historical view will show that all of the American southwest was a part of northern Mexico, so the map could relate to any place in that area and still be logical to be found where they were found. Besides, you can find a map of Japan in Florida, and the fact that it turns up in Florida does not make the map fit Florida. Then there is that issue of the heart, seeming to be in a valley, which can easily be pointing at the historical Valley of Hearts - and it seems a certainty that valley was not in the Superstitions. But who knows? It is possible that Valley of Hearts is in fact the very valley where your map ends.

All of which is academic if Tumlinson made the maps of course.
Roy

 

[somehiker]

Why a hole in the stones? Perhaps something goes into the hole to line up the stones to the lay of the land. Lined up on a landmark you thus have the trail location. Just a thought.

Hi Frank:
That big hole does make those who are trying to find their own trail wonder.It obviously,perhaps too obviously,appears to be an important feature of the Trail Maps.
If intended as such,it could indicate the hiding place of something necessary for a full solution...as well as being the mounting location.I had suggested some time ago the possibility of the trail stones being laid out in the same manner as were many old maps of limited area...,as a mapmaker's Plane Table.If so,an Alidade or something very similar in concept and function would be that "something necessary"......http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_cgs00426.jpg/300px-Plane_table_cgs00426.jpg

The Osborn Fire Finder is used in a similar fashion,to locate forest fires.....http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Osborne-cw-01.jpg/220px-Osborne-cw-01.jpg

Best:Wayne

 

[Hal Croves]

somehiker,
I removed the last thread simply because it was being used by a few people to promote their own agenda and I believed that it had lost its usefulness. Also a few of the posts were right at the edge of being obnoxious and I did not want to continue promoting that type of interaction. My goal with this thread is to focus as much information as possible (regarding Travis) in one place. So it is not about me or my beliefs, just known & semi-known facts about Travis. I will not delete this thread... my word. Your posts have always been worth reading and I hope that you continue.

Also... was it you who posted the work of Ted DeGrazia on my last thread? If so, I have had a conversation with his son and also his art manager since then. I will share the details on my other thread.

sgtfda,
I have been wondering about you and am glad to hear from you. I will post the location of that hole (my understanding anyway) on my other thread tonight when I get home. Perhaps when you find the time you can share your thoughts about Travis with us.... relating to your professional experience. I think that everyone here would appreciate reading your impression of Travis. FYI... I have taken your advice to heart and have use it to make a few surprising connections. So - Thank You!

 

[sgtfda]

Hal
Travis was in charge of a migrant labor camp. The local powers made him a special officer so he could keep the camp in order. The whole thing smells. Tells me Travis could play the game. I know the type . The stone discovery (IMHO ) was a set up for some scam. Just because he hunted the Superstitions does not indicate the stones were his map. I bet he knew a scam artist in the area.
You want to put your faith in a labor camp boss officer from that time period go right ahead.

 

[cactusjumper]

Frank,

That's an interesting piece of new information. Can you reveal the source?

They do have a pretty bad reputation up there, as well as around the world.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

My understanding is that Travis was a constable for the small community of migrant workers. It seems as if they were a questionable group of wonderers and that Travis was appointed to help maintain some type of order in the (camp) community. I have not had the experience with this type of person, however I don't believe that this should define Travis as a scam artist. In order to obtain this position he must have had some level of respectability and trust. sgtfda, if you can please expand on your experience and thoughts as I am always inclined to see the best in people and may be a little blind.

 

[sgtfda]

Joe I read that info on the web in a letter collection a while back. The link was on this site.

Hal you must live a sheltered life. Travis was appointed a special officer so he could keep order in the camp he ran. His little kingdom ruled with a quick black jack or worse. With a few exemptions the camps attracted the worse of society. Dog eat dog. Keep things in line Travis and we don't care how you do it. I've talked to guys from that period and know their methods. Mr nice could not survive in that job. My opinion is Travis made the stones then pretended he found them as part of a scam. Come on do you think he found them pulling on the side of the road and taking a walk.

 

[Hal Croves]

No, I never believed that Travis simply stumbled onto the stones. I do think that there is a good chance that he carved them, but the information he used was real.. meaning they do lead to an important location somewhere in the Superstitions. What was his motive for such a scam? Greed?- there are no reports of Travis profiting from the stones. Fame? - That did not happen in his lifetime. What remains? Perhaps I have lived a sheltered life, but if Travis was a thug and scam artist... just who was he scamming? His wife sold the stones after his death. Does that suggest she was part of the scam? I find it difficult to believe that a woman ill with cancer would perpetuate such a con. At some point in time one of Travis's friends or family members would have talked. I have not seen any convincing evidence of that yet.

 

[sgtfda]

If Travis carved the stones why fake their discovery? Not all scams materialize. Fame, a joke who knows.
Talking to the old guys at Dons Camp I would get a little grin when the stone subject came up. Those grins stick in my mind.

 

[cactusjumper]

Frank,

I have always believed, despite many naysayers, that Travis always intended and tried to make money from the Stone Maps. Just because he failed to do so, does not mean he never tried. If you go to Garry's site and read the letters, I believe you will see some justification for that belief.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

sgtfda,
Now I am sorry that I did not attend. Those grins would have been worth seeing first hand. So, from your post is it fair to assume that you sense an effort to hide the truth about the stone charts? Are people really like that? If you are correct (and perhaps you are) I hope that those individuals that have perpetuated the story (the lie?) are forever burdened with guilt. Innocent lives have been lost. How pathetic. I just hope that you are wrong.

cactusjumper
Could you please provide a link to "Garry's site?" Thank you in advance!

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I provided it in and earlier post, but here it is again:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/Dutchman.htm

It has a wealth of good information in it. Some things you may want to skip, like the MOEL documents, but the different letters/reports on Travis are enlightening.

It's well worth spending some serious reading time in those documents.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Hal,

I provided it in and earlier post, but here it is again:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/Dutchman.htm

It has a wealth of good information in it. Some things you may want to skip, like the MOEL documents, but the different letters/reports on Travis are enlightening.

It's well worth spending some serious reading time in those documents.

Good luck,

Joe

I linked to it as well on the 2nd post of the thread. It's been linked quite a few times for a number of reasons - it's a good idea for folks to "bookmark/favorite" the site as I'm sure it will be updated periodically as Garry has time. There's a wealth of factual documentation there to absorb.