Tumlinson Profile

[Cubfan64]

sgtfda,
Now I am sorry that I did not attend. Those grins would have been worth seeing first hand. So, from your post is it fair to assume that you sense an effort to hide the truth about the stone charts? Are people really like that? If you are correct (and perhaps you are) I hope that those individuals that have perpetuated the story (the lie?) are forever burdened with guilt. Innocent lives have been lost. How pathetic. I just hope that you are wrong.

cactusjumper
Could you please provide a link to "Garry's site?" Thank you in advance!

I may be wrong, but my take on sgtfda's post is along the lines of the topic of the Stone Maps being an incredibly polarizing subject within "Dutchman" circles. Ask 10 believers in the Stone Maps and they'll tell you they are 100% certain their interpretation is correct even though all 10 are in different parts of the mountain (or even in different mountains). Ask 10 folks who don't believe the Stone Maps are anything more than a fraud attempt and they'll give you umpteen circumstantial reasons for their belief.

The fact of the matter is that the Stone Maps are almost like a religion to some people - you have the passionately zealous believers on one side and the atheists on the other and the odds of ever moving someone from one side to the other is slim to none - meaning the arguments and discussions continue to revolve in circles just repeating themselves over time.

Until/unless someone finds what the Stone Maps supposedly lead to and there's a public "opening of the vault" (so to speak) followed by the steps taken to reach that conclusion (thus matching the Stone Maps), they will be a never ending discussion around campfires. I think the smiles sgtfda was talking about has to do with everyone having their own opinion and just shaking their heads whenever someone tries to convince them their belief is the right one.

 

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[somehiker]

Frank,

I have always believed, despite many naysayers, that Travis always intended and tried to make money from the Stone Maps. Just because he failed to do so, does not mean he never tried. If you go to Garry's site and read the letters, I believe you will see some justification for that belief.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:
Could you cite,from those letters and documents published on Garry's site,the evidence for your belief that Tumlinson intended to...or tried to make money from the Stone Maps.

Thanks in advance:
Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Sure I could......but you are a very intelligent man. I'm quite sure you would profit much more by going over, or back over, the material and then giving us your own opinion.

Let us know how that turns out.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Money has been made off the stones since they were found. Hell they have some of my money between the books and visit to the LDM. The old detective in me tells me something us not right with Travis and the stones. I'm on the fence as to their meaning. I keep in mind a site I found that many said did not exist. I may add many searched for.

 

[somehiker]

If Travis carved the stones why fake their discovery? Not all scams materialize. Fame, a joke who knows.
Talking to the old guys at Dons Camp I would get a little grin when the stone subject came up. Those grins stick in my mind.

Frank:
Some of the grins may be the result of those same old timers having spent so many years discussing the never ending topic of the maps.
It does seem to interest people to at least the same degree as the LDM.
Being Canadian,I often see those same grins on the faces of friends,family and co-workers when I offer my own opinions on America or Americans...especially Arizonians...when politics,especially the subject of illegal immigration comes up.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

Sure I could......but you are a very intelligent man. I'm quite sure you would profit much more by going over, or back over, the material and then giving us your own opinion.

Let us know how that turns out.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:
I believe I have.On numerous occasions I have referenced,and cross-referenced the material as well,in order to illustrate the reasons my beliefs.
Only asking you to do the same as you ask others to do.
A reasonable,non-antagonistic request IMO.

Regards:Wayne

 

[sgtfda]

Wayne as you know I've been up your way many times. Everyone is nuts up there except for you. What came first the chicken or the egg. The stones or Dutchman
In the public view you had the Dutchman map scam over the years. Then the stones show up with a new twist. Same sucker game and Travis was up to his neck with it. He even shows up at AJ to show them off and set up his story. Then wait and see what happens. Well we all know what happened down the road. We are living it.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne as you know I've been up your way many times. Everyone is nuts up there except for you. What came first the chicken or the egg. The stones or Dutchman
In the public view you had the Dutchman map scam over the years. Then the stones show up with a new twist. Same sucker game and Travis was up to his neck with it. He even shows up at AJ to show them off and set up his story. Then wait and see what happens. Well we all know what happened down the road. We are living it.

Some truth in that Frank.The further north,the crazier it seems.
But folks up north firmly believe it works the other way.
Waltz was,by his own admission,a cold blooded killer,threatening and feared by some folks as well.
Yet many believe his tales of a rich gold mine,and many have made money by perpetuating and expanding on the history.
So too,have a few who believed his story and went out there looking,despite those who claimed it false.

Happy to hear that your health issue has been brought under control.
Hope you get more opportunities to put all that equipment to good use.
There's gold out there,somewhere.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper/cubfan64
That link to Garry's site is unbelievable. Thank you for both for posting it. I began reading the material last night and found it fascinating to say the least. Some of the material is as compelling as Waltz's confession which, once I found it I read over and over again. I am not sure how accurate Waltz's confession is, or the stories about Travis finding the stones, but I honestly have avoided (as best I can) falling into either camp. For me the closest thing to the truth is the Haywood story. The fact that it points to a location in Peter's Canyon is for me a confirmation of my placement of the stones. As is the Kollenborn map even though it ends abruptly. There is more evidence to support my placement which I am beginning to share on the other thread.

I should have paid closer attention to your posts. Honestly I am sometimes overwhelmed by the time I get to the computer. I have been reading old threads on the DLM and trying to catch up to you guys who have been at this for years. That combined with the fact that I have been quietly looking for a lost treasure that is summerged somewhere just off my dock leaves me in a constant state of catching up. Once the ice forms here, I put away the diving gear and focus on the DLM. This little treasure that I have been searching for is a perfect example of missinformation being distributed by government officials. In a response letter from the NJ State geologist I was told that silver has never been mined substantially in this state. But just over the mountain (here is a photo) is an abandon silver mine.. on state lands covered over with an iron fence. It was a profitable mine at one time.. in 1876 it was pulling in $75.00 a per ton of ore. Somewhere in the lake, three kegs of refined silver are waiting to be found. The lake was enlarged and the 1876 shoreline is now 10' underwater. Anyway I am still searching one tank of air at a time. Just a small example of what we are all facing.

Back to Travis... I think that with your help this profile of Travis is already taking shape. Thank you sincerely!

View attachment 582495​

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

[Joe:
I believe I have.On numerous occasions I have referenced,and cross-referenced the material as well,in order to illustrate the reasons my beliefs.
Only asking you to do the same as you ask others to do.
A reasonable,non-antagonistic request IMO.

Regards:Wayne]

Since you have done all of that, I have no idea why YOU are asking me where I found "some justification" from the documents on Garry's site, that Travis was trying to make money out of the Stone Map.......without finding a treasure.

In the Bert Love letters you will find that Bob Tumlinson told Bert the following:

"Travis was a lazy stupid fellow who was crazy to sell his maps." This suggests, despite any problems in the family, that there is some "justification" to think that Travis was trying to make money from the maps themselves.

Beyond that, there is the "manuscript" that Travis was said to have written. That is also mentioned in the documents on Garry's site. The only reason for such a manuscript, would be to sell the story to a publisher, making money from his story......real or fake.

Since you have done so much work with the documents from the site, I will leave any further research of the question to you. I have looked through the documents a few times, but have not been as thorough in researching them as you have. To be honest, my interest has waned considerably on the Stone Maps.

I do still try to keep up on the unfolding story and theories, but I no longer stay up burning the midnight oil looking for answers. I think after all this time, it would be better to leave it to smarter folks, like you, to find the answers.

Good luck, and take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

You keep throwing that lark out there about what Bob T said. You always fail to acknowledge the more probable alternative to your theory:

Bert Love had not told Robert Tumlinson at the time of his statement that Travis had died. Robert believed that Travis was still alive, and must have assumed Travis had sold the stone maps to Peck. Love didn't tell Bob T that his brother had died until the end of the interview.

"Travis was crazy to sell the maps" can be interpreted in two ways:

1. He was VERY anxious to sell the maps.

2. For him to have sold the maps, he must have been nuts.

Now Joe, lets look at a couple of things:

If #1 was the correct interpretation, then why in all the years since 1949 have we not found the testimony of ONE PERSON that has stated Travis T attempted to sell them the stone maps? Peck's investigators spoke to several people that knew the Tumlinsons well. Some of them Travis even showed the stones to. He never tried to sell the stones to them.

If #2 was the correct interpretation; (again) At the time in the interview when Robert made that statement, Love hadn't told him Travis had died. If Robert believed Travis to still be alive, and Love told him that he represented the person who now owned the stone maps (which he had), Robert COULD HAVE ONLY SURMISED that Travis had sold the stones.

I ask you to put all biases aside and tell me which is more plausible?

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

[Frank,

I have always believed, despite many naysayers, that Travis always intended and tried to make money from the Stone Maps. Just because he failed to do so, does not mean he never tried. If you go to Garry's site and read the letters, I believe you will see some justification for that belief.]

OK, "Some justification" and "belief" may have been too strong for you. Your argument has changed my mind. There is NO justification, and I no longer believe Travis was trying to make any money, at all from his carvings.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

While I see the possibility, I have to discount it. Not because of my personal feelings about the Stone Maps, but because of the UNhighlighted portions of your statement.

He stated that it was his BELIEF. Not based on any facts, because he states "DESPITE MANY NAYSAYERS".

Read that statement for what it is:

"My personal feeling is that Tumlinson had planned on selling the stones. Although many of my interviews point to the opposite direction." Don't you think that if he had found anyone that shared his opinion, he would have mentioned it? Don't you think that if any of Peck's Investigators would have come across anyone that thought Tumlinson had ulterior motives for the stones that we would have seen mention of it in the letters? You can't use Robert because there was some very bad blood between them. After all, Travis had been dead for four years at the time of the interview, and Robert did know about it!

Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

Gollum,
I am asking for you help with these two questions because you seem to have invested quite a bit of time in researching Travis and his family, not to mention the stones themselves. I am wondering if Travis had served in the military and what (if any) religion Travis was associated with? Both questions will go a long way in building this profile of Travis. Thanks Gollum!

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"He stated that it was his BELIEF. Not based on any facts, because he states "DESPITE MANY NAYSAYERS"."

Those are not Bob Tumlinson's words, but mine. Your logic in stating " Not based on any facts" is an assumption on your part. Bob T. was in a much better position to know the "facts" than any of us.

As with many things dealing with the Stone Maps, as well as the LDM, there is little solid "evidence"
for any theories. Right now, there is more "evidence" for my conclusions than yours. The Travis Manuscript leans towards my argument.

Neither side is carved in stone.......so to speak.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

"Travis was crazy to sell the maps" can be interpreted in two ways:

1. He was VERY anxious to sell the maps.

2. For him to have sold the maps, he must have been nuts.

I would add here that Bob may well have meant this in terms of crazy to risk the chance of prosecution for pulling a fraud. As to Travis and his motivation(s) we are speculating 100%; we can not know what was in his mind or heart. What we do have is a set of carved stones, which have no documented history prior to Travis Tumlinson; Travis had carved several other stones, in some ways similarly to what we see on the Peralta stones, the four experts who did any kind of examination of the stones all dismissed them as of modern invention, and the state of Arizona classed them as "curiosities". Whether Travis created them or not, the case for the Peralta stones has become very clouded with issues and I have to agree with what several others have posted in that it will now take a major discovery of some kind of "treasures" to now prove them to be genuine maps to hidden treasures and/or mines. I put treasures in quotes for this could be something quite different from a stack of gold bars or silver crosses, and yet could still be something very valuable.

So my point is this - someone wishing to prove the stone tablets as genuine needs to start wearing out boot leather. A lot of boots have already been worn down of course but the case has not been sealed. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

Just a quick post,as I have been busy with other work these past couple of days.

From my notes....The material can be found on http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/peralta/Peralta.htm
within the Love-Brower-Peck letters...

There is additional information,regarding Travis Tumlinson having altered the primary Heart Stone.
This claim was made on Mar.16,1965 by Bob Bair,during a meeting with Mel Brower.
Bair claimed that Travis had carved the six zeros on the back of the Heart Stone in order to "throw anyone off guard who might see or steal the stones"
Brower reported this in his letter to Peck,with the caveat "I rather suspect he did this to further entice financial assistance",and added that he now believed the zeros to be "phoney".

But there is also this:

During a meeting with Bert Love on Apr. 10,1965,Bob Shultz,a sometimes partner of Travis on arrowhead hunts (who had been shown all four Stone Map carvings by his friend),stated that the back side of the Heart Stone had,when he saw it...."seven ciphers"....
Now,to my way of thinking,it would be highly unlikely that someone seeing six zeros would interpret them as being "ciphers".It makes perfect sense to me however, that seven letters or symbols,consisting of vertical (straight) and horizontal (some curved and some straight) elements,could be easily altered to six somewhat imperfect zeros.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

As I said, there is some justification for believing that Travis was trying to make some money from the Stone Maps. There is also some justification for believing that he was not trying to make money from them.

There have been other Dutch Hunters who have created stories and artifacts, as well as "signs" in the mountains, in order to attract others to help finance their real search, based on a fantastic (false) treasure tale.

Here is an example:

Hal,

If those pictures aren't good enough, I will be happy to provide something better.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
I am growing fonder of you with every post this time around. Could you confirm that this cast (I am assuming this is a cast due to the apparent air pocket on the top reverse side) is exactly what Tom provided to you and Jim from his source in Texas or is this an altered version of what Tom has shared? I am a bit confused as you present it as an example of a hoax?. I just want to be sure before I make the effort to place it and share the details with everyone. Thank you for sharing and having a change of "Heart". The front side is difficult to read... any chance of a much higher resolution?

Gollum,
I am beginning to think that you are intentionally ignoring my questions & PM to you. If you simply do not want to answer anything I ask of you, please just tell me so and I will leave you in peace. The last question was concerning Travis's religion and military service... any insight? Thanks Gollum!

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

The heart came from Jim Hatt. It is probably a copy of the "original". Jim had his own little cottage industry making the heart, the crosses and he may have even tried his hand at Stone Maps. Not sure on the last one. He sold a lot of stuff on EBay.

What portion of the heart do you need a clearer picture of. Since it's just a "copy" I would think just the spelling of certain words should be sufficient for your needs.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
I will agree that any such statement made by those who knew Travis personally should give reason to look further into his history,but I also believe that observations made by those who in this case did not,should be taken into consideration,but with a grain of salt.
Mel Brower and Bert Love were among the investors (stockholders) in Moel.As such,their personal opinions,such as that given by Brower (a large investment via multiple stock purchases)who, in this case may have been slightly predisposed to suspect that Tumlinson used the stones in some way other than a doorstop.
So far,all of those who wrote what is contained within these documents also believed that Tumlinson found the stones as claimed,and where he claimed.That is my take,since nowhere is any suspicion expressed that Tumlinson or anyone else involved in that time frame fabricated the stones as a joke,or for a fraudulent money-making scheme.
In fact,a major goal/reason for the investigation,led and I presume financed by Richard Peck
was to locate and obtain a "fifth stone",believed to be heart shaped,of which Peck had been given tracings and of which rumours had been circulating for some time.
Only one,Bob Bair,has claimed Travis altered the stones after finding them.He also claimed,in the same exchange of information with Brower,that the Heart Stone originally had seven "ciphers" on the back side.Bair as well,made the claim that Travis had found the "Indian Head" stone which some are now claiming as providing proof that Tumlinson carved the
Stone Maps as well.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

As I said, there is some justification for believing that Travis was trying to make some money from the Stone Maps. There is also some justification for believing that he was not trying to make money from them.

There have been other Dutch Hunters who have created stories and artifacts, as well as "signs" in the mountains, in order to attract others to help finance their real search, based on a fantastic (false) treasure tale.

Here is an example:

Hal,

If those pictures aren't good enough, I will be happy to provide something better.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:
Do all who create reproductions of artifacts,real or just rumoured,deserve your derision?
To the best of my knowledge Jim Hatt,who created the Latin Heart replicas shown in your photos,based them on the tracings originally circulated prior to 1965.
Also,to the best of my knowledge,he never claimed that they were anything but reproductions,based on those tracings.
You I gather,purchased your reproductions on E-Bay.
I was given mine,along with many CD's containing his research collection, by Jim free of charge.
Almost all was sent by airmail at some expense,for which Jim refused to be reimbursed.
The man has "gone west".How far and for how long do you intend to dog his trail?

"There have been other Dutch Hunters who have created stories and artifacts, as well as "signs" in the mountains, in order to attract others to help finance their real search, based on a fantastic (false) treasure tale."
Are you claiming with the above statement which many newcomers may take as "factual",that Jim created or placed such objects in the mountains?
If not,please clarify as to whom your statement applies.


I also have a collection of "reproductions" made by folks who generate an income from such.
People like me willingly pay for such reproductions in order to have something other than photos or drawings with which to decorate our personal spaces.
Would you consider the maker of this reproduction for example,dishonest or a fraud?
Because it cost me a significant amount of money to purchase from the Cody Museum in Wyoming many years ago.
You obviously distrust,and display within your posts great bitterness towards folks like us,as well as with those who disagree with your conclusions or have alternate theories backed by physical and/or photographic evidence.

Regards:Wayne