Oroblanco
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Hola amigos,
To support the Molina document dates, and refute the idea that good father Kino was the first and only Jesuit explorer to ever enter northern Pimeria, consider this;
Tucson founded about the year 1555 as is proven by the ancient records recently discovered among the archives of the San Xavier Cathedral was a Jesuit settlement long before the institution of San Augustine <Florida> in 1595 and Santa Fe <New Mexico> in 1605 in consequence is entitled to the honor of being the mother of cities so far the United States is concerned
<Annual report of the Department of the Interior, Part 2, By United States. Dept. of the Interior 1899, pp 264>
Kino's explorations are over a century after this date. I would again point out that we do NOT have all the records which existed at one time concerning the southwest US/northwest Mexico. Side note here but this same annual report also credits both father Kino and Salvatierra with being discoverers and first exploiters of the precious metals, as well as possibly discovering and mining the lead veins near Castle Dome.
I am not sure that Kino can be utterly acquitted of the "charge" of being involved in the mining, at least on some level. Kino himself mentioned the silver veins, and there is an odd passage which I will post here as well;
"The enterprise involves the reduction of the very extensive unknown North America the peace of all the interior the protection of the Califomias and the establishment of a resting place in the west for the sick on the voyage from Manila and to the eastward the trade and commerce with New France with well founded hopes of innumerable treasures for it lies in the latitude of Sonora and Pimeria provinces where there are veins of silver. Your royal Majesty Atlas of the two heavens has" <letter signed by "N C" included in Kino's historical memoir vol II, pp 74>
"CHAPTER IV THAT THERE ARE MINERAL LANDS In these new nations and new lands there are many good veins and mineral lands bearing gold and silver and in the neighborhood and even in sight of these new missions and new conversions some very good new mining camps of very rich silver ore are now being established."
<ibid, pp 266>
... and here is the odd passage I mentioned, quote
IV It is necessary for the missionary fathers to regale the mandarin in Great China with various gifts and presents in return for permission to preach our Holy Catholic Faith whereas as Father Daniel Angel who was rector visitor and missionary of Matape the commission as provincial which came to him from Rome found him dead was accustomed to say when some nations had failed to secure the fathers whom they requested here they asked him as they have asked me how much a father would cost in order that as in their simple discourse they put it with the silver which with their maize and mines they might assemble they could buy a missionary father to baptize them and minister to them for their eternal salvation.
The Amerindians had mines. I know this has been mentioned before, but it bears repeating - the Indios under the care of the padres, had mines of silver even before they had padres. When the padres arrived, do you suppose that they instantly ordered all work in the mines to cease, in order that they might herd cattle, mules and sheep, and to allow those mines to fall into disrepair?
The question of where the profits of these rich mines went is often raised by the apologists and skeptics; the same who ignore the fact that Jesuits, for all their personal vows of poverty, labored not for personal riches but for the church. Not so different from the Hare Krishnas that used to annoy folks in airports and other cults, in which the members live ascetic, spartan lifestyles and pool all the income they garner for their cult. The proceeds of Jesuit mines would have been used to ornament the mission churches and to send back to Rome. And they were used in that way!
The paucity of existing evidence in the form of silver and gold bars, candlesticks, crosses etc is likewise pointed to as proof the Jesuits never had any, yet where are the bells of their missions? Can anyone show me the bells from the 9 missions and 50 settlements in Sonora? Even the military camps had churches, which had bells - like Terrenate mentioned earlier which was not a mission yet had valuable things worth protecting from danger.
We could debate this issue ad nauseum, without being able to prove beyond all dispute either position. It is always possible to cry "fake" and "fraud" even if a cache of silver bars is found. Just remember this amigos, for the Jesuit claim to never have had any mines or hid any treasures, there must be zero evidence. Is that the case?
One more thing and I will close this very long post - we often discuss the Jesuits here, with little mention of the Franciscans. Remember that they too, were rounded up and sent out of Arizona, though at a later date <1827>. The Franciscans were somewhat less successful in their prospecting and mining in AZ, but they were well known for it in NM; nor are these the only padres we ought to research! Don't forget padre Manuel Lopez, <Augustinian> credited with being the first to mine placer gold in AZ in 1774 along the Quijotoa mountains. I would venture to say that a large chapter of Arizona's history is not to be found in history books.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
To support the Molina document dates, and refute the idea that good father Kino was the first and only Jesuit explorer to ever enter northern Pimeria, consider this;
Tucson founded about the year 1555 as is proven by the ancient records recently discovered among the archives of the San Xavier Cathedral was a Jesuit settlement long before the institution of San Augustine <Florida> in 1595 and Santa Fe <New Mexico> in 1605 in consequence is entitled to the honor of being the mother of cities so far the United States is concerned
<Annual report of the Department of the Interior, Part 2, By United States. Dept. of the Interior 1899, pp 264>
Kino's explorations are over a century after this date. I would again point out that we do NOT have all the records which existed at one time concerning the southwest US/northwest Mexico. Side note here but this same annual report also credits both father Kino and Salvatierra with being discoverers and first exploiters of the precious metals, as well as possibly discovering and mining the lead veins near Castle Dome.
I am not sure that Kino can be utterly acquitted of the "charge" of being involved in the mining, at least on some level. Kino himself mentioned the silver veins, and there is an odd passage which I will post here as well;
"The enterprise involves the reduction of the very extensive unknown North America the peace of all the interior the protection of the Califomias and the establishment of a resting place in the west for the sick on the voyage from Manila and to the eastward the trade and commerce with New France with well founded hopes of innumerable treasures for it lies in the latitude of Sonora and Pimeria provinces where there are veins of silver. Your royal Majesty Atlas of the two heavens has" <letter signed by "N C" included in Kino's historical memoir vol II, pp 74>
"CHAPTER IV THAT THERE ARE MINERAL LANDS In these new nations and new lands there are many good veins and mineral lands bearing gold and silver and in the neighborhood and even in sight of these new missions and new conversions some very good new mining camps of very rich silver ore are now being established."
<ibid, pp 266>
... and here is the odd passage I mentioned, quote
IV It is necessary for the missionary fathers to regale the mandarin in Great China with various gifts and presents in return for permission to preach our Holy Catholic Faith whereas as Father Daniel Angel who was rector visitor and missionary of Matape the commission as provincial which came to him from Rome found him dead was accustomed to say when some nations had failed to secure the fathers whom they requested here they asked him as they have asked me how much a father would cost in order that as in their simple discourse they put it with the silver which with their maize and mines they might assemble they could buy a missionary father to baptize them and minister to them for their eternal salvation.
The Amerindians had mines. I know this has been mentioned before, but it bears repeating - the Indios under the care of the padres, had mines of silver even before they had padres. When the padres arrived, do you suppose that they instantly ordered all work in the mines to cease, in order that they might herd cattle, mules and sheep, and to allow those mines to fall into disrepair?
The question of where the profits of these rich mines went is often raised by the apologists and skeptics; the same who ignore the fact that Jesuits, for all their personal vows of poverty, labored not for personal riches but for the church. Not so different from the Hare Krishnas that used to annoy folks in airports and other cults, in which the members live ascetic, spartan lifestyles and pool all the income they garner for their cult. The proceeds of Jesuit mines would have been used to ornament the mission churches and to send back to Rome. And they were used in that way!
The paucity of existing evidence in the form of silver and gold bars, candlesticks, crosses etc is likewise pointed to as proof the Jesuits never had any, yet where are the bells of their missions? Can anyone show me the bells from the 9 missions and 50 settlements in Sonora? Even the military camps had churches, which had bells - like Terrenate mentioned earlier which was not a mission yet had valuable things worth protecting from danger.
We could debate this issue ad nauseum, without being able to prove beyond all dispute either position. It is always possible to cry "fake" and "fraud" even if a cache of silver bars is found. Just remember this amigos, for the Jesuit claim to never have had any mines or hid any treasures, there must be zero evidence. Is that the case?
One more thing and I will close this very long post - we often discuss the Jesuits here, with little mention of the Franciscans. Remember that they too, were rounded up and sent out of Arizona, though at a later date <1827>. The Franciscans were somewhat less successful in their prospecting and mining in AZ, but they were well known for it in NM; nor are these the only padres we ought to research! Don't forget padre Manuel Lopez, <Augustinian> credited with being the first to mine placer gold in AZ in 1774 along the Quijotoa mountains. I would venture to say that a large chapter of Arizona's history is not to be found in history books.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
