Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I thought I made this clear, but let me repeat:

[In our conversations, I don't believe we were talking about the spiritual connotation of a "church", but the more commonly accepted "definition" of a church. My own feelings are much like those of the Apache, in that anywhere people might gather to worship a god, would be considered a church. That would include the meanest shack and the most sacred mountaintop.

What we are trying to get to here, as far as I know, is the truthfulness of a newspaper article that includes the finding of a small church and it having a huge slab of stone for a floor. That does not match up with what the native population would build, or were documented to have built, for the Jesuit's at San Cayetano. That location does not match some important, contemporaneous, descriptions of the original site, as well.]

In the sense you are talking of, San Cayetano did have a church. In the sense the treasure stories are alluding to, there was no church.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

In the sense you are talking of, San Cayetano did have a church. In the sense the treasure stories are alluding to, there was no church.

In your opinion, of course.

I think we are all aware of your views on this whole topic - that it is all made up stories, by treasure writers & Amerindians, to attract masses of tourists and for the vast profits to be made in publishing treasure stories and books. I respectfully disagree, on most of this, as we have all gone over this before and most of our readers are probably tired of reading my respectful disagreements. So I won't trouble you further in repetitive argument.

Good luck and good hunting amigo Joe (and everyone reading this) I hope you have a very pleasant evening.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[Cactusjumper wrote

Quote
In the sense you are talking of, San Cayetano did have a church. In the sense the treasure stories are alluding to, there was no church.


In your opinion, of course.]
______________________

I have no problem with your characterization of my posts. They are, of course, my opinions. They are, however, based on every treasure story I have ever read or heard concerning Father Kino and the Tumacacori mission. If you can recommend a story that depicts San Cayetano Del Tumacacori, as it was in Father Kino's lifetime, I will be more than happy to have my opinions corrected.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Roy,

[Cactusjumper wrote

Quote
In the sense you are talking of, San Cayetano did have a church. In the sense the treasure stories are alluding to, there was no church.


In your opinion, of course.]
______________________

I have no problem with your characterization of my posts. They are, of course, my opinions. They are, however, based on every treasure story I have ever read or heard concerning Father Kino and the Tumacacori mission. If you can recommend a story that depicts San Cayetano Del Tumacacori, as it was in Father Kino's lifetime, I will be more than happy to have my opinions corrected.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

I doubt Tumacacori had anything to do with mines or treasure during Father Kino's Lifetime, seeing as how he died in 1711. I don't think Tumacacori was about much other than converting the masses until about 1751 (or thereabouts).

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I agree totally.

On the other hand, as I recall, you have posted pictures of ingots with Kino's name on them, and implied that they belonged to him. I believe most published Jesuit treasure stories are connected, in some way, to Father Kino. I could, of course, be wrong

Take care,

Joe

 

[ghostdog]

To Catusj,you have been liveing and exploreing in that area a long time,and have a great deal of knowledge of past activities and locations of interest. Could you please enlighten us with some of your personal finds. I am not trying to put you on the hot seat, just curious to see a few samples of relics you have unearthed. Anything you care to share.
This request also applys to anyone else who cares to share. Thanks in advance to all.

 

[gollum]

Mike,

I agree totally.

On the other hand, as I recall, you have posted pictures of ingots with Kino's name on them, and implied that they belonged to him. I believe most published Jesuit treasure stories are connected, in some way, to Father Kino. I could, of course, be wrong

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Careful there! HAHA I never implied that they belonged to Kino. I simply told the story that the current owner told me. I was also VERY careful to state that I can in no way vouch for the authenticity of those two ingots, as I don't know the owner THAT well, and have nothing but a 63 year old story about where they came from.

I am VERY careful about whose Kool Aid I am willing to drink! HAHAHA The ONLY finds I have ever been willing to stake my name on were what I found, what my friend from Tucson found, and the two Kenworthy finds. Anything other than those are very interesting stories that I believe are worth a closer look.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Sorry Mike,

Pretty much, that's why I said "I could be wrong". I believe there are a few more Kino bars there than two.

While I am sure that there was some Jesuit involvement in actual mining, I don't believe it was wide spread......whatsoever. As for Kino, I don't believe
he was involved in any way.

Just my opinion from what I have read.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

To Catusj,you have been liveing and exploreing in that area a long time,and have a great deal of knowledge of past activities and locations of interest. Could you please enlighten us with some of your personal finds. I am not trying to put you on the hot seat, just curious to see a few samples of relics you have unearthed. Anything you care to share.
This request also applys to anyone else who cares to share. Thanks in advance to all.

_______________________________

G.D.,

I need to make this very clear. I have never found a single "Jesuit artifact". That is one of the things that contribute to my doubts about Jesuits in the Superstitions.

At one time, I firmly believed in Jesuit treasure, and more specifically that the Stone Maps were created by Jesuits. Other than my time spent in the Superstitions looking for any treasure that might be located with those Stone Maps, my research has, mostly, been of a historical nature.

I do not label every oddity of nature a Spanish or Jesuit artifact. I will leave that for the expert's opinions. Even though I doubt it, my conclusions on the maps may be wrong. If that's the case, any number of others may have found real artifacts.

If you want to know something that is related to the "documented" history of the Southwest, including Mexico, it's possible I will have the answer. My library on that subject is small, but of very good quality. I have also been fortunate enough to establish a number of qualified sources over the years.

I know that's not what you were looking for, but that's all I have.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Sorry Mike,

Pretty much, that's why I said "I could be wrong". I believe there are a few more Kino bars there than two.

While I am sure that there was some Jesuit involvement in actual mining, I don't believe it was wide spread......whatsoever. As for Kino, I don't believe
he was involved in any way.

Just my opinion from what I have read.

Take care,

Joe

I completely agree about Kino. He went to great (and I mean GREAT) lengths to deprive himself of worldly niceties. Even going as far as adding nasty spices to his food so they would be less flavorful, scourging himself, owning nothing but one set of clothes and a horse blanket. No Father Kino was poor in earthly goods.

I have said it many times; I do not believe that the missionary fathers were, themselves, mining and treasure hunting. I DO believe that Jesuit CoAdjutors DID do all of that. They were not bound by Ecclesiastical Precepts and were allowed to mine and hold public office. Their allegiance was sworn to the Jesuit Order, and the bulk of their profits went to the Order as well.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I believe I read that Father Kino had one extra shirt......

"I have said it many times; I do not believe that the missionary fathers were, themselves, mining and treasure hunting. I DO believe that Jesuit CoAdjutors DID do all of that. They were not bound by Ecclesiastical Precepts and were allowed to mine and hold public office. Their allegiance was sworn to the Jesuit Order, and the bulk of their profits went to the Order as well."

Is there some historical documentation that you are using as a source for your beliefs, or is it supposition on your part? I know that the Coadjutors existed, and still exist, but what evidence is there that they did mining......in Jesuit mines?

Thanks Mike,

Joe




Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

I believe I read that Father Kino had one extra shirt......

"I have said it many times; I do not believe that the missionary fathers were, themselves, mining and treasure hunting. I DO believe that Jesuit CoAdjutors DID do all of that. They were not bound by Ecclesiastical Precepts and were allowed to mine and hold public office. Their allegiance was sworn to the Jesuit Order, and the bulk of their profits went to the Order as well."

Is there some historical documentation that you are using as a source for your beliefs, or is it supposition on your part? I know that the Coadjutors existed, and still exist, but what evidence is there that they did mining......in Jesuit mines?

Thanks Mike,

Joe




Joe

Joe,

CoAdjutors made/make up as much as one-third of the entire Jesuit Order. They are more correctly called Temporal CoAdjutors (meaning that they tend to the Order's Temporal or Worldly Needs as opposed to the Priests that tend to the Spiritual Needs).

If you read about places where the Jesuits have a strong presence, you also read about how people who are connected with the Order quickly find themselves powerful and/or wealthy.

Did you read about any friends of the Jesuits being rounded up in 1767? No. Just the Priests. My Jesuit friends at both Georgetown and Loyola Marymount agree that anything being done on a "For Profit" basis whose profits were being given to the Order would have been Jesuit CoAdjutors. Knowing just who was/is an official CoAdjutor is very difficult. Because for whatever reason, they are not progressing on the road to Priesthood, a CoAdjutor still takes a Vow of Obedience to the Order. As far as I know, there have never been any lists of CoAdjutors. That is a little strange considering they make up as much as a third of the entire Order. The fact that there are no published lists of CoAdjutors gives fodder to the fanatics. Just Google "Jesuit Temporal Coadjutor". You will see all the whackiness. One thing I can guarantee you is that as ordered and meticulous as the Jesuits are, they have internal lists of CoAdjutors going back to the 1500s. It is just in their best interests not to let anyone outside the Order know who in the outside world has taken a Vow of Obedience to the Order. Remember, CoAdjutors are not bound by Ecclesiastical Precepts or anything else that restricts the actions of a Priest. They are free to hold office, join the police or military, own businesses for profit, and anything else that everybody is allowed to do. They are just secretly working on behalf of the Jesuits.

The best example I have of how the Jesuit Order works with their CoAdjutors is the case of Capt Juan Mateo Manje. A staunch friend and advocate of Padre Kino. Traveled with him on most of the journeys. At one point, Capt Manje wrote in a letter that the Jesuits were ignoring the Spiritual needs of the Spanish in preference of the Indians of Pimeria. Before you could say "lickety split" Capt Manje found himself in prison. He languished there for quite a while as a lesson about badmouthing the Order.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

I know, I promised not to pester you with more "respectful disagree" repetitive argument, and this is a very long post so I beg your indulgence and thank you in advance.

Joe complained about how the Franciscan ruins are being conflated with Jesuits, so I will complain about priests being conflated with lay brothers. It may well be correct to say that Kino had no involvement with any mining, however do you suppose it is correct to say that all Jesuit lay brothers, operating in the same province, likewise had no involvement with any mining? Do you suppose that the Amerindians saw a big difference, between the priest who orders them around, telling them to herd the cattle, plow the fields, etc and those lay brothers who were dressed just like the padres, but ordering them to work in mines? The fact that these Amerindians whose testimonies of having been forced to work in mines by Jesuits is so scorned, chose to eliminate several of the padres in the various uprisings doesn't tell you something?

I don't see how this connects very well with the Stone Maps, though that is one theory. The silver discoveries of the late 1720's/early 1730's is the time period most likely for the Jesuit mines to be operated but is that even accurate? Was Kino the very first Jesuit ever to set foot in Sonora and Pimeria Alta? As good as the records are that exist today, the Jesuits certainly did not record every activity they were involved in. Also, a good percentage of what records that DID formerly exist, do not exist today. The dates on the Molina document are too early for Kino and are a period for which we have very little records, despite the claims of how excellent the Spanish and Jesuits were at documenting everything. We know that the Jesuits founded a mission among the Mayos in 1613, and by 1653 had missions in the Sonora and Bavispe valleys. Do we conclude that those earlier missionaries, never explored beyond their villages? Why did father Keller make mention of so many years lost work (in 1751) if the Jesuit missions were destroyed and driven out of Pimeria Alta, a number of years that takes us earlier than the arrival of father Kino? Kino was not the first Jesuit to explore and work in Pimeria, clearly.

I hate to keep referring to the Pima revolt of 1751, but as we have some of the testimonies and correspondence from that moment of time we can use it as a "slice" of what the truth was. If the Jesuits were not involved in mining, why do we find this mention, quote

The rebels burned Caborca at the same time and killed the Father and those who were with him, as well as others who were in the mines and mining camps. <Gaspar Stiger to Felipe Segesser, San Ignacio, November 27, 1751>
(AGI, Guadalajara 419, 3m-48, pages 43-45)

Do you suppose this does not refer to mining camps owned and operated by Jesuits? If it is not related (directly) why the direct connection with murdering the padre (at Caborca) and those who were with him? Why do the Pimas tell the Franciscans that they are happy they are not going to be forced to work for them, as they had for the Jesuits? The modern revisionists and Jesuit apologists want to sweep all this under the rug (so to speak) but don't be so quick to dismiss the testimony of the Amerindians, and this is a major source for many of the Jesuit treasure tales. It is during this revolt that we have the letter from Father Keller, mentioning that he went to Terrenate to hide the ornaments of the church and a family, and Terrenate is not listed as a mission we ought to note, but yet it had a church with valuable ornaments.

Joe made much complaint of Bob's map layout of Tumacacori, yet the early Jesuit missions were not impressive works of European architecture.

"As they approached the mission of Guevavi, Father Joseph <Garrucho> must have been disappointed. There were signs of life all along the river but he could see nothing that resembled a mission. Suddenly they were there. Without the cross and bells and Pimas, it might have been a rancho." <http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/joseph-garrucho.htm>

The newspaper article which Joe likewise found fault with, for its mention of a stone block covering the underground vault - well is that SO difficult to picture? What sort of covering would you put on an underground room, on top of which you were walking but a stone block or slab. Perhaps the newspaper reporter's choice of descriptive term is at fault, perhaps he ought to have said "slab" instead of "block" but this sort of nitpicking does not prove there never were any Jesuit mines or treasures. It is a fact that the Jesuit missions were described by those who saw them (while active) as richly decorated with silver and with gold, and it is likewise a fact that when the Franciscan padres arrived to take charge of the very same missions, scarcely a fraction of such silver and gold ornamentation was to be found. Where did it go? Was it hidden by Amerindians? Or did the Padres hide it, as the arrest and roundup on the frontier did not go like clockwork, in fact most of the mission padres were simply notified by an Amerindian runner sent from the main mission HQ (Guevavi in this case) to come in, the roundup was very far from a "sting" as envisioned by the King, and as depicted by our modern revisionists.

The Spanish royal authorities certainly were convinced that the Jesuits had amassed and were hiding treasure, and though their efforts to discover them were largely un-successful, this does not prove that their suspicions were utterly without foundation. I realize that there is some justification today to dismiss and even ridicule the various Jesuit treasure legends, on the grounds that some nitbrain will surely take pick-axe to the historic and beautiful remaining <and mostly Franciscan> ruins we see today in Pimeria. There is no good reason to be digging and destroying such historic landmarks - as reported in the newspapers, whatever treasure(s) had been hidden IN any of the churches has long since been removed, and in at least one case, by the Jesuit owners. There could be treasure hidden somewhere in the 'hinterlands' such as in an old mine shaft or tunnel, and I don't see how it would be harmful to historic landmarks if treasure hunters were to find and recover such treasures.

My apologies for the repetitive argument again amigos, I know that I already promised not to keep on with this but for the sake of our readers I thought these points ought to be covered. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

You can bet yer cotin pickin butt that You had better keep posting.

Don Jose de La mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"At one point, Capt Manje wrote in a letter that the Jesuits were ignoring the Spiritual needs of the Spanish in preference of the Indians of Pimeria. Before you could say "lickety split" Capt Manje found himself in prison. He languished there for quite a while as a lesson about badmouthing the Order."

I have seen this story before, but don't recall ever reading it in a book. Can you tell me the original source?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[ghostdog]

A little imfo from my notes,but on the thin side,as my notes arent with me. Manage as I recall published a book, which got him put in jail. Kino also published a book on Celestial navagation,which was a big seller in Europe . I believe Manages book was pro-Indian ,like they should be liberated,and treated as equals. The higher ups thought Manage went off the deep end,and maybe he did. He probably was ingesting Peyote candy.

 

[cactusjumper]

G.D.,

Thanks for the reply. I would still like to see another source. I have seen the story before, as well. Surely there must be a historical source.

Joe

 

[ghostdog]

I will post more accurate imfo, when I retrieve my notes ,maybe a few days down the line.

 

[gollum]

Mike,

"At one point, Capt Manje wrote in a letter that the Jesuits were ignoring the Spiritual needs of the Spanish in preference of the Indians of Pimeria. Before you could say "lickety split" Capt Manje found himself in prison. He languished there for quite a while as a lesson about badmouthing the Order."

I have seen this story before, but don't recall ever reading it in a book. Can you tell me the original source?

Thanks,

Joe

There are several sources for the story. It is an historical fact.

I believe the story is in "Luz de Tierra Incognita" by Juan Mateo Manje. That book is packed away at present, but I believe the story is also in "Kino and Manje: Explorers of Sonora and Arizona" 1971 by Father Ernest J Burrus SJ. I am at work right now and can't look in it to verify, but I believe it is.

Best-Mike

 

[Infosponge]

The story is also in Bolton's Rim Of Christendom, pages 560-561.