Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI ghost dog: You posted -->a story of a prospector who finds some very old dynamite fuse,and send samples to a fuse maker.End result it dated to the 1700'S as being of German manufacture
****************

Hi again, Barry storm was obviously mistaken since Dynamite wasn't invented until 1867, so if it was a fuse it had to be for black powder.

not trying to be picky---- !

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[ghostdog]

Hi Rt,how you doin.? You or anyone on this board can correct me anytime. Your right, it was black powder fuse. Glad you butted in, do you think sometime you could post photos of some relics you recovered from your Tayopa area.They dont have to be coins ,just anything of interest. Perhaps a sword,gun,or even mule teeth. By the way are you selling any found coins ? Also I used to have 2 Japanese swords,1 sheath was wrapped in sharkskin ,GI return,just blabbering.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"Another thing to keep in mind is that the "supposed" Sister Molina hand copied an old document she found while working at an archive in Rome. So much for the NPS' statements about the orientation and font of the document."

At the risk of this being mistaken as some kind of "Tag Team" effort, I have a questions for you. How does anything in your statement negate what NPS had to say?

I take it you find nothing unusual that "Sister Molina" would be working in the archives in that era, and would copy this particular document.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

"Another thing to keep in mind is that the "supposed" Sister Molina hand copied an old document she found while working at an archive in Rome. So much for the NPS' statements about the orientation and font of the document."

At the risk of this being mistaken as some kind of "Tag Team" effort, I have a questions for you. How does anything in your statement negate what NPS had to say?

I take it you find nothing unusual that "Sister Molina" would be working in the archives in that era, and would copy this particular document.

Take care,

Joe

Come on Joe,

Did you read the NPS Site that shows why the document is a fraud?

1. One of their "PROOFS" of fakery is the format of the page (from the NPS Website):

Format​

The counterfeit is written in a "landscape" format, something totally unheard of in the Spanish colonial era. The variation in size of the letters and weaving lines point to someone besides a Spaniard having written it. Those who could write in the colonial era were taught to keep their lines very straight and the size of their letters uniform. They took great pride in their ability to write "properly." Probably one of the reasons they never wrote in the landscape format is because shorter lines are much easier to keep straight.

A: The format makes no difference because the document was NEVER advertised as an original colonial document. It was always stated to have come from Sister Micaela Molina who "HAND COPIED" the document from the original she came across in the archive where she worked.

2. Handwriting Style/Font is another stated reason for the document being a fraud (from the NPS Website):

Handwriting style​

The so-called "Molina document" is written in a printed form of handwriting, something that is just not seen in the Spanish colonial era. Although there were, of course, printed books, the populace always wrote in a cursive style. In this forgery, letters are printed in modern style, although the forger tried on occasion to make some of them look archaic. Unfortunately, his lack of consistency gives him away. One glaring example of this is the way the forger made his "r's," as in the word "borrada." Spaniards of the colonial period universally made "r's" that looked like "x's, but this writer's "r's" are consistantly executed like modern printed "r's." A comparison of handwriting styles of the sixteenth, seventeenth, and eighteenth centuries graphically shows this "document" to be a phony.

A: Once again, the document was NEVER advertised as an original colonial document. It was HAND COPIED from the original. More likely to have been copied in the style known best to the copier.

That good enough for ya Joe?

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

It was HAND COPIED from the original

Why does this get passed over so quickly when trying to dis-assemble the document?
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Gollum wrote

It was HAND COPIED from the original

Why does this get passed over so quickly when trying to dis-assemble the document?
Oroblanco

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! It seems that every official effort to discredit the Molina Document/Map tends to overlook the fact that it has never been claimed to be an original Spanish Jesuit Colonial Document, but a hand written copy.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"That good enough for ya Joe?"

Perhaps........but I would like to see some documentation that the good Sister actually existed. When she copied the document in Rome, was the river named Santa Cruz......or Santa Maria?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

"That good enough for ya Joe?"

Perhaps........but I would like to see some documentation that the good Sister actually existed. When she copied the document in Rome, was the river named Santa Cruz......or Santa Maria?

Thanks,

Joe

Joe,

Nothing more than someone else's research thatI don't have permission to post. There is a Molina Family not too far from Tumacacori (HAHAHA Figure that! A Molina Family in Southern Arizona! HAHAHA). In their family history, there is a Micaela Molina. Nothing for certain about her being a Nun.

My friend in Tumacacori has a couple of colonial era documents that mention the Santa Cruz River Valley. Long before the NPS says it was given that name. He's not big on posting information though. HAHA

Best-Mike

 

[lgadbois]

The name changes occurred with the Franciscans as they took over the missions in Pimera Alta just after 1767.

The Molina was copied from a source document that was much different in appearance. The original was signed by PSR (Padres de San Ramon). Who were the PSR? Why is there no record of this group? Was it a cult? Was it a group of Spanish nationals that used the appearance of being associated with the Holy Roman Catholic Church? There are some geographic places in So. Arizona that were named San Ramon after 1780. Who named them, the new Padres?

The mystery may never be solved. What is sure, is that the mines listed on the document do exist. Most of the maps of Pimera Alta were copies of Kino's maps which were used by the Franciscans well after they re-established the missions along the Santa Cruz and San Pedro Rivers. Kino's maps did not show many of the mining districts, as he was not concerned about mining. One mining district that was shown on several of his maps was the John the Baptist real. This mine may have been operated by the Church.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI, speaking of hand written copies, most of mine are valid for 3 - 4 hrs, after that I can't remember what they said and I certainly can't read them and make any sense of them later, sigh.

As in speaking, the words just never seem to get out nor printed, so get too hurried.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose wrote

HI, speaking of hand written copies, most of mine are valid for 3 - 4 hrs, after that I can't remember what they said and I certainly can't read them and make any sense of them later, sigh.

Wow - 3 to 4 hours, you have quite a good memory! Heck I have trouble with my own notes on the ride back to camp or motel room! That is a matter of minutes after taking them down, which indicates a low coffee-blood-level, so thankfully I see that some libraries are now including coffee shops in the library. (Rapid City has a very lovely one, and a ridiculous price for a library card - $75 believe it or not. )

I don't know how it would be possible to prove OR disprove the existence of a document, based on hand-written notes copied from it. This third-handed document sure has led to a lot of debates, but like so many things in the treasure hunting world - not too easy to settle absolutely. I know that CJ would like to see some proof that Sister Molina existed? We can't exactly ask John Mitchell.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Infosponge]

Riddle me this!

The Molina document mentions several members of the Molina family, what makes you think that Sister Micaela Molina is a Sister of some Order rather than just a sister of her fellow siblings?

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

Can you tell us who the other members of the Molina family are, that are mentioned?

Many thanks,

Joe

 

[Infosponge]

Cactusjumper,

The names mentioned are as follows:

Santiago Molina

Juan de dios Molina

David Molina

Micaela Vallorica de Molina

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

Many thanks. I see you are going to make me dig out my copy of the document. To be honest, I don't remember any of those names being on it. Of course, it's also a sad truth that I can't remember what I had for breakfast.......other than coffee, which I have every morning......I think.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Infosponge]

Cactusjumper,

If you're digging out this copy of the Molina document then let me save you some trouble.


The Molina document I'm referencing has never been published, and I'm sure you as well as most everyone else in the world have never seen it.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO Extremely interesting. A different person and style of writing. But the $64 question is are the words and data different or the same?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

I pretty well knew that without digging my copy out.

Until the, now two, documents are presented for some serious authentication by qualified folks, I will not be shouting any huzzahs from any rooftops.

It seems you are satisfied, but the results of those tests have never made it into public view. I might be able to persuade myself, it I could see the documents, but so far I am unimpressed with what I have seen.

Despite the.....explanations for the obvious flaws, the Molina Document remains a fraud in my mind.

Thanks for your reply,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Thought it would bear my repeating some facts here:

During Father Kino's lifetime, and as long as the Jesuits held sway over Tumacacori, there was never a "Mission" at the village. It was always a Visita until it was moved and taken over by the Franciscans. The Jesuits never had a priest attached to Tumacacori who lived on site. In truth, it was only visited a few times a year.

When Father Kino died, things fell apart for the Northern Missions. For twenty years Tumacacori was not visited at all. When the priests returned, the village was for all intents and purposes a ghost town. I have the number of natives who were living there somewhere.

It has been suggested that the miners at a mine as big as the Tumacacori mine, would have to have purchased supplies at Tumacacori. If you read the real history of Tumacacori, you will realize that wasn't possible. IMHO, Father Kino and the Jesuits were not involved in mining at Tumacacori.

On the other hand, you might be able to build a pretty good case for the Franciscans.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Infosponge]

Good evening Cactusjumper,

You stated the following:

Thought it would bear my repeating some facts here:

During Father Kino's lifetime, and as long as the Jesuits held sway over Tumacacori, there was never a "Mission" at the village. It was always a Visita until it was moved and taken over by the Franciscans. The Jesuits never had a priest attached to Tumacacori who lived on site. In truth, it was only visited a few times a year.

When Father Kino died, things fell apart for the Northern Missions. For twenty years Tumacacori was not visited at all. When the priests returned, the village was for all intents and purposes a ghost town. I have the number of natives who were living there somewhere.

It has been suggested that the miners at a mine as big as the Tumacacori mine, would have to have purchased supplies at Tumacacori. If you read the real history of Tumacacori, you will realize that wasn't possible. IMHO, Father Kino and the Jesuits were not involved in mining at Tumacacori.

For the most part your statement is true, but you have conveniently left out the fact that there were two supply centers which could have supported such a mining operation within close proximity of Tumacacori. The Jesuit mission of Guevavi was 15 miles away, and the Tubac Presidio was only 2 miles down river.

Sincerely,

Infosponge