Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

cactusjumper said:
Don Jose,

In a much shorter period of time, the Mormon Church has spread around the world and become quite rich and powerful. They did it with a serious program of tithing, and judicious investments of the money they collected.

Think little raindrops into mighty rivers. :toothy2:

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

Ah yes, the Latter Day Saints - so we may ignore the lost Rhodes gold mines, the gold leaf decorating their tabernacle, and the Mormon gold coins they struck as just the result of 'tithing' correct? :tongue3: ;D :icon_thumleft:

Sorry for getting off topic there amigos, just thought that was a funny example, and a fascinating set of lost gold mines in their own right.
Oroblanco
 

Good morning Roy,

Rhodes' gold came from California. Everything else remains......rumor and folklore, as far as I know. In that respect, it is no different than Jesuit treasure. :wink:

There is no doubt that Brigham Young was interested in any rumor of gold mines, or anything else that would bring money into the Church coffers.

Take care,

Joe
 

hi cactus You posted --->There is no doubt that Brigham Young was interested in any rumor of gold mines, or anything else that would bring money into the Church coffers.
**********
And the Jesuits wern't? In the name of the society of course, not personal.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Oroblanco said:
cactusjumper said:
Sorry Roy,

No personal attack on you was intended.

"If you look at the very map you just posted here, you will see that the original mission WAS up in the hills, not down on the river flats."

You have changed the wording a bit here:

"After obtaining the necessary information the Jesuit priest gathered together a party of trusted men and followed the trail to the Tumacacori mission, situated well up in the mountains."

It may be that you are looking at the treasure chest I placed on the west side of the river. That is the location that T.S. posted coordinates for. There is little doubt that the old mission was on the east side of the river.

Hope all is well for you and Beth.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

Hola amigos,
Joe, I used YOUR map as you posted to make a point; newspaper reports are often dismissed by historians, due to their inaccuracies and errors, which ignores the fact that in most cases they have at least the basic points correct. I know of a case in recent history, in which a car plunged over a 30 ft embankment into a river; the car came to a rest (carried by the waters) 1000 ft downstream of a bridge which was just S of where the car entered the river. The newspaper accounts had it that the car plunged over a 1000 ft cliff into the river, and BTW this is the exact same way it was reported by several television stations. The car did end up in the river and some ways from where it entered, but if you followed the way it was reported you would be looking for a non-existant 1000 ft cliff. :icon_scratch:

It is funny to me how you will 'laser-focus' on a flaw in any thing that supports Jesuit treasures and/or mines Joe, yet just seem to forget that even a Jesuit historian <one you hold in high regard> openly published that two Jesuits were caught being involved in mining, and this was a historian whom was only covering a relatively small area of the world, for the Jesuits operated world-wide and still do. I have to suspect that if you were to turn the same level of suspicion onto the Jesuits as you do onto all evidence showing their involvement in mining, treasures etc your view may well change.

One more thing Joe, I did not take it as a personal attack so no apologies were necessary, sorry for making you think that was the case. Branding and shearing are now done, and we are both in pain but glad those two chores are over for another year. I hope all is well with you, and that you are having a very pleasant evening.
your friend(s) in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy *& Beth*

PS It is just my opinion, but I think that locating two of the mines on the map should allow you to locate all of them without any further clues whatsoever. I would also point out that Spanish pronunciation may be causing treasure hunters a major problem in identifying a particular landmark; the pass of "Janos". "J" in Latin <recalling that many Catholic priests use Latin> is a 'Y' sound, so it would sound like 'Yanos'; likewise a pair of 'LL's has a similar pronunciation in Spanish, so the name could be spelled in Spanish as LLanos, which word we should note has a very different meaning from Janos too. Of course in Spanish the J is an H sound, so it sounds like 'Hanos' . I don't think it actually refers to the tribe Janos, this appears to be a possible error in transcription/translation along the way with three languages as <possible> factors (Spanish, Latin, Anglo).

PPS Now I will have to use a tactic I don't like, to say that I know for an absolute fact that one quite valuable mine was found by the use of the Molina document, this mine is documented and was a good producer in the "frontier" days. Probably some of you know exactly what I am talking about; but do not ask me the name or location of this particular mine; if you are curious you can find out rather easily. Now if I knew the exact location of one other mine, I would be asking my boss for some time off..... :tongue3:
Click to expand...
Dear Oroblanco;
Just a couple of minor corrections, if you don't mind my friend. The letter J does not exist in classical Latin. The letter I is used instead. JESUS is therefore spelled as IEUS in Latin. The classical Latin Alphabet is:
A B C D E F G H I K L M N O P Q R S T V X Y and Z. Please note the omissions of the letter J, U and W. There also was no J sound in Latin. The I, when used at the beginning of a word, acquired the same basic sound as H in English.

Continuing, in Spain the LL can be pronounced as the L-Y (the same pronounciation as miLLion in English) or as Mill Joan or as Mee Yone. All are considered to be correct, depending on what part of Spain you happen to be standing in when you pronounce the word in question. In Latin America, the most popular pronounciation for the LL is the hard Y sound (as in Mede YENE) however this is not true for all of Latin America. In Colombia it is pronounced as a hard J sound, as in Medellin (med ehh JEAN) and in parts of Chile, Paraguay, Ecuador it is pronounced as Med-L-Yean.

Are we all throughly confused now? :-)
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Don Jose,

"And the Jesuits wern't? In the name of the society of course, not personal."

I think that goes without saying. Each and every Jesuit was above reproach in such matters. All of them were only interested in mining souls. Weren't they all nominated for sainthood? :notworthy:

Take care,

Joe
 

Dear Oroblanco;
I've located a webpage which kinda-sorta, more or less explains the differences in pronunciation of the LL consonant in Spanish.
http://www.braser.com/spanish-learning/spanish-pronunciation.html
Quoted from the above listed website:
Spanish 'y' and 'll'

Peninsular Spanish differentiates (in most areas) between 'y' and 'll'. 'Ll' can be pronounced in Spain as English 'j' ('calle' = 'caje' in Andalusia and Extremadura), as English 'y' ('calle' = 'caye' in Andalusia) or as 'ly' ('calle' = 'calye') in the rest of Spain. The 'y' sound in these areas tends to be similar to an English 'y', although the mouth is tensed a bit more and the sound is more pronounced.

These three variants of 'll' exist in one form or another in Latin America. The 'ly' sound has been lost except in areas where the indigenous languages (like Quechua) had this sound in their own language. The 'j' sound is predominant in the Río de la Plata area (Argentina and Uruguay) and has even evolved to a new sound, a very strong 'sh' ('calle' = 'cashe'). In most of the rest of Latin America, the predominant sound is like English 'y' and there is no difference

There! That should REALLY confuse everyone now! ;D
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Cactusjumper wrote
Good morning Roy,

Rhodes' gold came from California
Click to expand...

Good evening Joe,
At the risk of utterly de-railing this topic, do you have anything that supports the contention that Rhodes' gold came from California? Thank you in advance,

Muchas gracias amigo Lamar, for the corrections.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Roy,

The "documented" part of the Thomas Rhoads story is pretty well known. He left the gold fields of California in August of 1849, when Brigham Young advised all Mormons that they should return to Zion (Salt Lake City). Rhoads was one of those who decided to do Young's bidding. On Oct. 9,1949, "

"according to church records, Thomas Rhoads deposited $10,826 in the mint's account, a sizable fortune for the time."

[How much gold Rhoads had when he retraced his steps is not known, but in a talk given by Brigham Young on Sept. 6, 1850, he commented that "the wealthiest man who came from the mines, Father Rhoades, with $17,000....]

It was a long time ago. Who knows the truth of the legends. :dontknow:

Take care,

Joe
 

Maybe a separate thread would be in order, on the Lost Rhodes mines, but what you have posted Joe is the same type of evidence in favor of Rhodes' mine(s) being located in Utah. Plus we would wonder why Rhodes didn't return to CA to get more gold, and there are "stories" of his making trips in Utah. Doesn't prove the mine was in Utah either, of course and CA would be much easier to believe.
Roy
 

Roy,

At that time Young wanted the Saints in Utah, not streaming into the gold fields of California. That's why Rhoads left in the first place.

Take care,

Joe
 

Roy,

Here is a little history from someone who claims to be a direct descendent of Thomas Rhoads:

Re: Thomas Rhoades' Missouri Days
by wiscombep » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:34 pm

As a decendent of Thomas Rhoades (through Nephi), my father has been very active in researching that genealogical line. He has drawn pretty much a blank in doing any research of that time period. Several mini-biographies don't even mention the Missouri years, stating instead that the family moved from Edgar County IL directly to California.

What is known:
* Thomas Rhoades was baptized a Mormon in Illinois in 1834 by Caleb Baldwin.

*After being persecuted in Illinois, he moves with his family to Ray County Illinois in 1838

* Gov. Boggs signs the "Extermination Order" in October of 1838. All of the Mormons are to leave Missouri.

* Thomas lives well respected by his neighbors in Ray County Missouri which wasn't exactly a friendly location for a devout Mormon at the time. There really isn't any record of contact with the church leaders in Nauvoo during this time. The 1840 census shows him owning slaves. Again not a typical Mormon action. There is tradition that he was acting as a sort of undercover agent for the Church in Missouri, but again, no records that I know of.

* In 1846, Thomas heads west to California. There is tradition that he was sent by Brigham Young and the other Apostles to blaze a trail, but again, no records of this "assignment." He doesn't leave from Nauvoo, or Winter Quarters, but from Missouri. There's no evidence that he was in contact with the church leaders before he left.

* In California, again we have no record of contact with the Brethren, who had moved on to the Salt Lake Valley.

* In August 1849, Thomas moves to Utah. He turns over the gold he had mined near Sacramento to the Church. . If I remember right, he became a member of the Stake Presidency and the treasurer of Salt Lake County. He married three more wives (Elizabeth having died in CA). He builds a big house on South Temple. In other words, he appears to be someone who was in full fellowship with the Church, not someone who had been "less active" for the past 11 years.

So the big question is, what was his status during those years? Was he a secret agent for the Mormons, reporting back to Nauvoo? Or did he drop away from the church, only to become later re-activated (to use a modern term). The romantic in me loves the idea of him being sent to watch over Mormon interests as an undercover agent, but

Whenever my father has looked for official information from the Church regarding Thomas Rhoades and his relationship with the church he has always run into roadblocks. Probably because 99% of the people looking for Rhoades information from the Church Archives are trying to get closer to the gold, instead of the history.
____________________________________________

From the historically correct details, I believe the family connection.

This was interesting: http://www.treasurenet.com/forum/treasurehunting/archives/19990415/messages/3289.shtml

Take care,

Joe
 

I have recently found this site and have enjoyed reading all the discussion. Let's add my penny's worth. I use the method of "source and data". That is to judge the source and the data separately. I have no clue about the "document". I have read several versions and translations in the past 20 years or so. I dismissed it at first as unintelligible, unverifiable, and of no use whatever. I returned to it about ten years ago and concluded that the document, with all its' obvious shortcomings, inaccuracies, and contradictions, could be an attempt by a person of limited literacy skills to make a record of stories heard from Padres who had served in Pimeria Alta and had in turn gotten these stories from local natives. If so then I could focus on the content.
I have searched for and found evidence of black powder used to collapse a small ridge. I have visited the site with my son ten years ago and found nothing to contradict the description in the document. I have made two additional trips to the area (from my home in Georgia) and have found other sites which agree closely to the locations of the other mines described in the document. I therefore concluded that the document contains descriptions of real mines and events.
I got no readings whatsoever from my metal detector. If I don't reach the end of my trail first, the next step is to get a ground penetrating radar and scan the site in a more thorough fashion.
Three thousand plus loads of metal should
 

Keepdigging,

Welcome to TNet. Please read the entire thread. You will see that GPR Soundings have been done there. Dr. Lambert Dolphin retired Senior Physicist at SRI (Stanford Research Institute) personally performed the tests.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the "supposed" Sister Molina hand copied an old document she found while working at an archive in Rome. So much for the NPS' statements about the orientation and font of the document.

Last tidbit. A Jesuit writing about the location of a fortune...HHMMMMM If you think that something like that would have not been heavily encoded, you don't know anything about the Jesuits.

I give you one of the Jesuit Ecclesiastical Precepts:

In 1662, we find the first GLARING statement:

"Inasmuch as possible, Ours will avoid writing letters to Ours complaining about the laity. If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it. The same caution is to be observed when writing the Provincial about things THAT MUST BE DEALT WITH SECRETLY BECAUSE EXPERIENCE HAS SHOWN THE CONTRARY PRACTICE CREATES GRAVE INCONVENIENCES."

"17. In the matter of writing and keeping letters, many serious improprieties have been observed. Since, as we are mortals, the written word remains, letters can serve as the Father of Rumors and the seedbed of discord. Wherefore, I beseech you in the bosom of Jesus Christ, that whoever has any such letters WILL HEREUPON BURN THEM (AS SOME HAVE ALREADY DONE). In the future the Fathers should take a careful look at what they are writing because LITTERA SCRIPTA MANET...................."

Best-Mike
 

Welcome to Treasurenet keepdigging! :icon_thumleft:

Interesting approach, and valid IMHO. A key phrase that I wish I had run across years ago, may assist your turning up more, that phrase is la minería misión, "mining mission" - it has been carefully edited out of much of the Jesuit history of the southwest (and for most of Latin America) but it is in there, and is what those missions were that had valuable mines.

I am sure someone will object to this, but read it for yourself and then say it doesn't mean what it means.

Good luck and good hunting amigo Keepdigging (and everyone) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

Thank you all for the hearty welcomes.
I posted without finishing my thoughts. A shortcoming (not finishing my thoughts ) that seems to occur with increasing frequency.
The incomplete sentence refers to the large signature that three thousand loads of metal should make.
A scan of the site should show if anything is there.
 

Keepdigging,

A GPR Sounding doesn't work that way. It can't look off to the side. It can only see what is directly underneath it. By all accounts, whatever is there is in a shaft that runs underneath the mountain somewhere. GPR would only find the part of the shaft that is not under the mountain.

GPR also doesn't work well in rocky or heavily brushy terrain. You need a clearly defined search box in order to get an accurate result, also you can't drag the antennae over boulders, it has to stay close to the ground. If you have been there, you know just how heavily bushy and rocky it is.

Did you go in Peck Canyon or Rock Corral Canyon when you went in? I assume Peck, because that is the way most people have gone. Although, there are no cliffs or ridges in Peck that have even the slightest appearance of being blasted. Was it around the back side of the mountain?

Best-Mike
 

Hey keepdigging, as a side note to your main post, Barry Storm relates a story of a prospector who finds some very old dynamite fuse,and send samples to a fuse maker.End result it dated to the 1700'S as being of German manufacture...Oldman Kino was also from Germany.
I think your in the right place, but what your looking for is deep,,and you"ll need more than a shovel...more likely a construction crew.Still you might find some interesting artifacts, shovels deep beneath the surface....gd-luck
 

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