Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

Oroblanco said:
Cactusjumper wrote
Roy,

I believe the Pima Indians who were moved to San Cayetano de Calabazas were from the village of Toacuquita, not from San Cayetano del Tumacacori. I don't believe that location was inhabited again
by the Pima. :dontknow:

Could be wrong, but so far I still stick with my original statement. Would love to see some documentation.
Click to expand...

I think the extract from Rudo Ensayo said that Indians were brought from Tubac to Tumacacori, not from Tumacacori to Calabazas, I do not know where Pauer brought the natives from to create a pueblo at Calabazas so will take your word. Wiki has this

"Mission San Cayetano de Calabazas, also known as Calabasas, was founded by Jesuit missionary Father Francisco Xavier Pauer in 1756 when he relocated at least seventy-eight Pima Indians to the site from their village of Toacuquita in what is now Arizona, near Tumacácori."

Are you saying that the Indians brought from Tubac were NOT brought to Tumacacori? Many of the rebellious Pimas started returning to their homes within a month of the uprising, forty families had returned to Tubac; Captain Joseph DĂ­az del Carpio marched up the river valley in the spring of 1752 and enumerated the people he found, you may have his census totals in your own library. Soldiers brought to Tubac to establish a presidio there 1752 displaced Indians and occupied their houses. Pauer builds a new church 1753.

"Pauer, Francisco - A native of Brno, Moravia, this Jesuit Priest was at San Xavier at the time of the uprising. He was not well proportioned but had clear, swarthy skin and a thick nose with brown hair. He had only been at San Xavier a few months when the Pima rebellion erupted and he ran for his life. He came back to Guevavi in 1753, and built churches at Tumacacori, Calabazas, and Sonoitac. He left Guevavi more prosperous than he had found it."
http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/pedro-chihuahua.htm

The NPS views San Jose de Tumacacori as a continuation of San Cayetano de Tumacacori, not as a totally NEW mission and village. In this rare instance, I am in agreement with the NPS. As far as I know, Tumacacori was not abandoned (permanently) prior to 1844, and the last few residents leaving 1848. I sure don't know for certain as I was not there. :dontknow:
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2:
Click to expand...
Hello Roy
Thanks again. It's kind of funny that the Peralta got their grant in 1748, and Martin Cayetano Fernandez de Peralta was involved, as he was said to an avowed Jesuit hater. Many thanks.
Take care.
FEMF
 

FEMF,

"As Governor Ortiz Parrilla searched for the causes of the uprising, this story became more and more garbled with each telling. Whatever happened, however, it was certainly not cause for the mass killing of innocent women and children.
Pedro Chihuahua and Father Garrucho had had a disagreement at Guevavi over whether Pedro could actually be Luis Oacpicagigua’s sergeant and carry the bastón (or cane) of authority for that office. In the end, Pedro went away offended, having relinquished his bastón. Again, this could hardly be considered a just cause for what was to take place afterwards. Since there was already a rift between the Governor and the Fathers, however, the embellished story as it grew from one telling to another began to look bad for Father Garrucho. Very few people who testified had been there at the time. They just told what they had heard and the Governor’s secretary, Martín Cayetano Fernandez de Peralta, considered by many to be an avowed Jesuit hater, went about collecting hearsay as valid testimony of what had taken place."

A common occurance in that era.

Take care,

Joe
 

FEMF wrote
Hello Roy
Thanks again. It's kind of funny that the Peralta got their grant in 1748, and Martin Cayetano Fernandez de Peralta was involved, as he was said to an avowed Jesuit hater. Many thanks.
Click to expand...

I find it funny that anyone who raised any objection to anything done by the Jesuits was (and still are) labeled as "Jesuit haters". There is an interesting angle to research around Governor Ortiz and the Superstitions too, but that was discussed several years ago and is very peripheral to the topic here so I won't bore our readers with it.

Roy

:coffee2: :coffee2:
 

Oroblanco said:
FEMF wrote
Hello Roy
Thanks again. It's kind of funny that the Peralta got their grant in 1748, and Martin Cayetano Fernandez de Peralta was involved, as he was said to an avowed Jesuit hater. Many thanks.
Click to expand...

I find it funny that anyone who raised any objection to anything done by the Jesuits was (and still are) labeled as "Jesuit haters". There is an interesting angle to research around Governor Ortiz and the Superstitions too, but that was discussed several years ago and is very peripheral to the topic here so I won't bore our readers with it.

Roy

:coffee2: :coffee2:
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Hello Roy
Can you please give us a tag on where we can find that topic? Thanks.
FEMF
 

FEMF said:
Hello Roy
Have you, or anyone else hear, ever heard of a connection between the San Cayetano Del Tumacacori Mission and a Cross Del Santa Fe?
Thank's again Roy.
FEMF
Click to expand...
FEMF, Although I have never heard of this direct connection, I do know that samples of obsidian found at Guebabi were traced to two source sites located in western New Mexico. The idea of a direct connection to New Mexico is not far-fetched. Relics were obviously transported and traded from the region. Sorry to hijack the thread. I'm just another guy following the history of Pimera Alta.......
 

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BornOnFire said:
FEMF, Although I have never heard of this direct connection, I do know that samples of obsidian found at Guebabi were traced to two source sites located in western New Mexico. The idea of a direct connection to New Mexico is not far-fetched. Relics were obviously transported and traded from the region. Sorry to hijack the thread. I'm just another guy following the history of Pimera Alta.......
Click to expand...

The plentiful obsidian originating from the Mule Creek, NM, area has been found at numerous other southwestern sites.
 

BornOnFire said:
FEMF, Although I have never heard of this direct connection, I do know that samples of obsidian found at Guebabi were traced to two source sites located in western New Mexico. The idea of a direct connection to New Mexico is not far-fetched. Relics were obviously transported and traded from the region. Sorry to hijack the thread. I'm just another guy following the history of Pimera Alta.......
Click to expand...

HiJack away Fire, your giving the thread some new life, and it's been getting really slow around this web site.
FEMF
 

BOF,

Isn't it also possible that there is an indirect connection? In other words, passing through a number of hands before reaching Mexico?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

G'morning Reegretspog Kaffee conmigo alla en el Patio? Lupita, dos cafe por favor. Usted me da un poco de confusion con su post ? Pueda clarificar lo por favor?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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cactusjumper said:
BOF,

Isn't it also possible that there is an indirect connection? In other words, passing through a number of hands before reaching Mexico?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...

I imagine that all items were transported in this way but the fact that obsidian made it's way to this site is compelling. From what I understand from the archaeologist there, obsidian samples were found that originated from a least five different sources in AZ, NM and modern-Day Southern Mexico. Guebabi must have been a significant way-point of travel. Standing on the banks of the Santa Cruz River next to the ruins of Guebabi, it's easy to see why it was established in this area. It was an oasis in the desert with a significant source of water that supposedly ran year-round. Must have been pretty nice to see that after a traveling through the desert for days on mules or by foot.
 

Tag. I new Gollum had a thread up in here. Hahah, still push'n round the rocks of Santa Rosa Gollum?
 

Great could you please send me the google earth co-ordinates for my research - lattitudes and longitudes of all 3 mines to [email protected] thanks for your help!

cptbil said:
Well!
All I know is that the Mines, as shown on the map
ARE!
In the exact position as shown!

How do I know... ???
Tell you what, I will not try to convince anyone ...
As you all know,
Arguing is usless :P
But!
What I will do...
Is to SHOW Anyone!
All three of mines ...
Virgin of Guadalupe, Opatas, and The Pure Conception Mine !
Now!
Argue with THAT! ;)
Click to expand...
 

In your article you give evidence that a lady named molina or mill did exist - As everyone on here knows that the mines exist- So can you tell me if both exist -would not a possible document exist from our dear lady in question. I am amused that 1 The mines exist, 2. as to your statement a lady named molina exist. 3. However nobody is willing to state that our lady in question or someone related or that is known could not have created or wrote a
document about the story of the 3 mines, giving rise to the existance of such a document at that time period. Most think its faked or forged. Do you think perhaps this document may could at one time been written in the given time period. OR is it indeed a fake- why do 2 of 3 things in question really exist and yet no one seems to think the 3rd one does!. Just curious!!!!
RWLJ said:
The Guadalupe or Tumacacori Mines
Are for real
According to new discoveries
This is where, the so-called Dutchman got his gold, and his Peralta Stones, left east of Apache Junction, identify.


Documents from many other sources talk about the same mines and at different time periods they were called by different names. People are looking for many mines that they believe are different but really they are one and the same, that is due to people trying to protect it by telling you so much truth but steering you in the wrong direction. Also there were a lot of documents that had a lot of stuff left out of the story and in some cases false stuff was injected into the story or on the map purposely so that if it fell into the wrong hands it would not benefit the wrong person, but it was good information as long as it was in the hands of the right person who knew what was false or understood a few things that were left out.

There were other cases where things were added to the map to confuse things and send the enemy in the wrong direction.

I believe that the upper Tumacacori is a real place and that the Guadalupe Tumacacori mines document was rewritten with perfectly clear descriptions left out that would have put you in the right place to start with to begin looking, this was done after 1850 by a man and possibly a wife or lady that assisted him. I believe this man killed a Spaniard and a Dutchman, and after using a lot of different aliases it was believed that his name was Jacob Waltz or something to that affect. It is likely that, that may have been at least part of the name of the Dutchman he killed. According to this man's diary the Dutchman and Spaniard were on their way to turn him in to collect the reward for his capture. The German or Dutchman, of the peoples group of about thirty miners or prospectors, is probably in a grave with the Spaniard on my ranch.

The Dutchman and Spaniard were mad at this fugitive because he had staked and claimed the whole area of the mines. This Spaniard could not own a mine in the US after the Guadalupe Hidalgo Treaty of 1849, and was allying to be the silent partner of the Dutchman from the peoples group; the fugitive even though he had claimed the area could not protect it due to the law looking for him. So the Dutchman of the peoples group, who had recently become a US citizen in California, was attempting to nock the fugitive out of the picture in hopes of having great wealth, but there were others in the area besides the fugitive who were working with some Indians to protect the mines. These others with the help of the Indians had already sacrificed quite a number of people, under the leadership in-part of the fugitive, to protect the mines and to keep their area from becoming a cesspool of low-lives, as they saw happen in 1848 gold rush in California. The Spaniard and the Dutchman were not the first to bark up the wrong tree, that were killed by Whites allied with Indians.

I have copies of maps that were taken from other Spaniards that tried to ally with other Whites to take control of the mines. So the fugitive who ended up with a Dutchman's name spent quite a bit of time hiding the mines, the Indians also did their share, not all of these Indians were Apaches.

So before this fugitive (called the Dutchman today) died, he said that he had left a lot of clues to the place of his mine (he also left diaries and journals and other documents that told the greater truth that were not related to the gold he had, but the truth about why he was a fugitive). The Guadalupe or Tumacacori document was one of the clues he left behind, plus what is commonly called the Peralta Stones etc, which were found between the Apache Junction and Florence. This man was a hard working and industrious man for the younger part of his life. He knew or believed, what he was shown was of the greatest importance, he covenanted with the Indians, when they showed him the place, he would help them protect it and use only what he needed for his personal use. This man had a fairly large family before he became a wanted man by the US law, and the Indians knew where his family was, they would have taken the lives of his family, starting with the firstborn, if he would have violated his agreements.

The Apache Indians may not have known about these agreements he had with another tribe, which had shown him the site. He went to great efforts to tell his story without it jeopardizing his family, or the covenants he made with the Indians while he was alive (a covenant made with your life is no longer considered binding after your death, by some). In one of the mines there were records, which the Guadalupe document was taken from, they were rewritten so that someday what he had seen could be known for the betterment and the benefits of those who were truly saints of his faith. Those who have a background in his faith have a lot better chance of understanding the Guadalupe documents and the so-called Peralta Stones etc, if they know much about the history of the people of their own faith. It is not hard to recognize who the so-called Dutchman was in real history, if you are tied in with those who are learned in the original faith.

I bought a ranch, which this man crossed over when he was hiding from the law, and own things that this man once had. This may sound crazy but I bought this ranch because I believed it was once owned by the ancestors of king Solomon, due to some of the oldest Hebrew writing in the world, which is near the area. From what I have learned from the ancient writings and other things in the area, I am convinced that the Tumacacori mines are the mines that in ancient times belonged to the queen of Sheba, who supplied Solomon with gold. I believe that the Jesuit priests who took their treasures and buried them there were convinced likewise. There were already treasures there before the Jesuits added to it. This place of Bathsheba, which means House of Seven or the House of the Seven Cities of Gold, the gold of this place, is mentioned on the lead crosses dug up by the Santa Cruz river north west of Tucson in the 1920s. The lead crosses dug up there talk about places and things that are not properly understood by the scholars who have examined them, if they knew about the places that the lead crosses represented people could understand what the cross on the back-of one of the so called Peralta Stones represents. So if someone says that the Guadalupe document was written by one who understood English and not Old Spanish they are correct, but to say that the story is false and the mines don't exist would be a lot less than the whole truth.

It has not been a month since I visited the patio that is fifty Varas square (that is mentioned in the Guadalupe document), I went a hundred or so yards above it and out of two handfuls of dirt, taken from the soil above, and panned it. Out of that came four yellow pieces of heavy metal and about four times that many pieces of silver metal, and some of the silver metal was really bright and brilliant which would indicate to me, it would have to have a high percentage of gold in it. I have eight gold nuggets, which were given to me by someone who's friend had found quite a few of them; he found them while he was staying on my ranch long before I bought it. Some of these nuggets are an inch long and were not creek worn, and with a whitish gray quarts imbedded in some of them. When I bought the property I did not know that the gentleman who had lived on the property, had found gold nuggets.

Tumacacori is a bad pronunciation, by the Indians or others, of two Spanish words that identify a place at my ranch. The so-called Dutchman went to great work to tell his story and to lead the wrong people away from where he got his gold. The name Ramon brakes down into two names, in ancient times, and literally means the same thing as the name Solomon just in a different language. In working my property I dug up a smelter that was about fifteen feet long, it was obvious that someone buried it to hide it. I found the rock foundation of a cabin with a rock corral next to it and what was left of an adobe furnace on the other side of the cabin, I kicked the surface of it to expose more and found pieces of black, glass looking slag. This and other things fit the stories that they say the Dutchman told. As I looked around, on the south side of my property there was a peak, shaped like the top of a hat, I found what was left of a two-room house at its base, and I have also found a number of old places that have been mined.

At one of these places, there were a bunch of turquoise colored rocks I gathered up about a half a dozen tubs of the rock, and melted some of them which produced what looked like pure red copper, I was surprised to see such a high amount of copper come out of such a little bit of rock. I found another big smelter at the place where the map shows the pure conception and within fifty Varas it appears there is a covered over tunnel, halfway between that and the Guadalupe mine I noticed a place that had been dug out with a dump below it and found several pieces of slag with metal in it, and east of it several hundred yards was where you could tell there used to be an old road running North and South, and to the west side of the road there were three places where people had lived and it looked as though there was what was left of a furnace next to each of them.

There are things on the Peralta Stones that identify the place and the person who manufactured them, that tie in with the story and the name of the person or lady who people claim got the documents or copied them from Spain. On the so-called Peralta Stone the one with a horse on it, there is a river partly circling across, which represents the correct Santa Cruz river, as the river is drawn on the stone in front of the horse it is a map where the Santa Cruz river circles a natural cross on my property. It would be interesting to know who created the copycat one by Tucson. The last name of the lady that is claimed to have gotten these documents from Spain, was Molina, if you look at the rock map with the horse on it with the Santa Cruz river in front of it, hidden in the hair of the mane is the English name for Molina, which is Mill, her husband the fugitive had a mill north of the mine, and you have an N hidden in the hair on the face of the horse. I could point out a number of things that tie the Guadalupe document and maps with the so called Peralta stones and the person that was a fugitive who had familiarity with the place that the stones and the documents describe and fit, and who was there in the 1870s and on.

The two points that were brought down over the Guadalupe Mine left the top of a fifty Vara square work area looking like a big heart, and just off to one side of the patio, working area, there is a big cut where hundreds of tons have been moved, in an old mining operation, it is big enough that water now drains through it when it rains heavy, and if you are not doing your homework you can stand in that cut and not even know that it is an old mine, and this matches the cut on the so-called Peralta Stones next to the place where the heart fits in.

There is a sink hole that is about fifteen feet across that has settled another two feet since I bought the place, which fits the place, that the so called Dutchman, claimed he covered with timber. I talked to the previous owner and he said the place has been sinking for quite some time, thirty or forty years. If the Dutchman covered his with juniper logs they could easily have rotted away by this time and the dirt and rock will be settling into the tunnel. For someone to make a document and draw a map that fits like a hand in a glove would have to either have seen what I have seen or been the greatest psychic in modern time, that is, if the Guadalupe documents are a fraud and the Peralta Stones are not true. The truth in this matter is a lot stranger than fiction. The key to the world's greatest treasures is to put truth, reality and the respect of the rights of others first, and not cave in to our appetites and greed, only then will our vision to understand ancient or old documents become clear.

I bought the ranch to protect history, not to find gold.

I am also the Discoverer of the real Ezekiel's Jerusalem (The one that Tiberius the Emperor of Rome made so insignificant that it would no longer be recognized, see records from the British Museum and archives of Paris).

I find it ironic that everyone is looking in the wrong places for the right thing, do to all kinds of people benefiting by steering people in the wrong direction, such as selling maps and stories that are misleading, or people trying to protect sacred places from thieves that would plunder and destroy such. The world would have true riches if they put what was right ahead of their greed.

R.W.L.J (the Real Written Lore of Jerusalem)
Click to expand...
 

Hello Joe, etc....

11-24-12

Hello Joe, Roy, Mike, Jose and all the rest.

It has been a while but I have been reallybusy. I have written a couple of books,which I need to correct and make sure I say what I mean and mean what I saywith good English. This will help thosewho want to know the real facts that have been hidden from the world since thetime of the fall of First Troy, which was the original capitol of First Israel,not what Alexander called New Troy in Turkey. You may disagree with what I am about to say. But if you want to know the real facts ofreal history my two books would be a good starting point. I will post my website in a couple of weeksand you can read them for free.

I want to make a statement about the Tayopa Mine. Jose I don’t want to offend you but helpyou. John D. Michel in his book The LostMines of the Great Southwest, on page 40, claims and quotes that a Yaqui Indiantold him that the Tayopa Mine was located some distance to the north of hishome in the Cerro Azul (Blue Mountain). I learned many years ago from the Hopi where the Blue Mountain was. I have also learned from Spanish accountswhere one Spanish leader got to the Hopi Reservation and decided to discontinuehis trip to the Blue Mountains which was to the northwest of the Hopi. He had heard or had records of silver andmercury being there.

In Southern Utah you have red and whiteMesas. On the west side of Zion NationalPark and the Hurricane Fault Line you have the Blue Mountain and it stands outas blue in contrast with what is around it. It is now called Pine Valley Mountain. On the south side of it you have the Silver Reef Mines where they dugout a lot of silver in the past; on the north side you have the Cinnabar Minewhere they mined mercury.

Tayopa itself is a well-known place in Indian andancient history. The Ta part of the nameis the big Ta or geological cross where La Verkin Creek crosses HopValley. The O is the round circle thatmakes the top of Fire Pit Knoll, and the Pe today would be Pa the Paiute namefor Water, which area is the place where Utah got its name from. This place is on the East side of the BlueMountain. The Mines of Tayopa arenothing more or less that the Mines of the Yutas. There are old Spanish maps that are the same,some of them have on the top of them the Mines of the Yutas and others have theMines of Tayopa. The Mines of Tayopa areno other than what the early Mormons called the Rhoads Mine, or the Sacred YutasMines, which they called the Carre Shinob. The Fugitive had it altered to throw people off and called it the TumacacoriMines, using a place south of Tucson that reflected the same name in part.

When you find the Molino Document Mines you havefound the Sacred Yutas Mine or the Rhoads Mine or the Dutchman Mine. I know who has found them and I know who ownsthem, and I know the reasons they created decoys from the Molino Documents andMaps to the Peralta Stone Maps and the decoys they created in the GrandCanyon. These decoys were created toprotect and hide the most sacred of all world mines.

The Indians in Northern Mexico wanted to keep thepeople misled into thinking the Tayopa Mines and the Mesa of the Bull was inNorthern Mexico. Even the Romansreferred to Taurus the Bull that Indian History Identifies as Fire Pitt Knoll,which the Greeks and the Hebrews called Alpha the place of Beginning.

I guarantee you that if you people can helpestablish a government of self-evident law that creates a standard of trueequality I know those who will let you share in opening up the Seven Caves orUnderground Cities that were built in ancient mines, which have ancientlibraries in them and which the Bible refers to as the Tree of Life which wasin the center of the Garden of Eden. These Seven Cities were known as Cibola whichmeans Buffalo or Bull. That is why thesecity mines are so sacred to the Indians who guard the place, who have said theywill start with your first born if you mess with them mines. You may not wantto throw away your life or that of your family. In this case Greed would equal suicide.

This Red Land of Tayopa, next to the BlueMountains, the Alpha or the place of Beginning. Josephus identifies this place of beginning (Eden) as meaning Red Earth. Remember the Bible says the First Rivercoming out of Eden encompassed the land of Havilah the land of good gold. Josephus also says (Roy) that Tiberius hadIsians at the Temple of Isis destroyed and the Judeans taken out of that areaof Rome. What he didn’t tell you (to notdefy the decree of Tiberius) was that it was first Rome, not the new Rome ofItaly, and that first Rome was the original Homeland of the Trojan Israelites(Romans being descendants of the Trojans), which ended up in the Middle Eastand the Mediterranean area in the aftermath of the Trojan War.

That history of Josephus matches the records in theBritish Museum where Tiberius had the first land of Judea destroyed and all theJudeans exiled out of that country long before that New Jerusalem in the MiddleEast had its temple destroyed. Tiberius’sdecree was that he would make this place so insignificant that it would nolonger be recognized.

I suggest Roy that you do a lot of homework andread my two books before you try to put down that which you know littleabout. I can say this with authority,having seen things that no other man has seen (of today’s world). But I hope you understand that my discoveriesrequire some prudence on my part.

You people show me a master plan, how discoveriescan come forth without destroying the value of the place and its artifacts, andI will take you all on a tour. I willpost some great laws and standards a little later on if you are interested, andthose that can adhere to those great laws and standards will not be denied apart in bringing forth the greatest mines of history from ancient times to morerecent times.

Would we want to put sacred artifacts into the handsof the universities that are suppressing the correct histories of the world orthe religious pawns that bow to them?

May the seekers of truth work to help protect thetruth for all future generations!

Your true friend

RW
 

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Good morning JW, off to the patio for our morning coffee. You posted --> Jose I don’t want to offend you --- relax and drink your coffee. You certainly haven't, in fact I can show you several Tayopa's, but, there is only one true Tayopa, and I have it.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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