Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[gollum]

Joe,

I was a treasure hunter who believed in Jesuit treasure, so I have argued your side of the debate for years. The facts on the ground and historically, don't support my old position.

REALLY?? So, I guess we should completely dismiss the words of the Jesuit Fathers themselves as to the richness of the Missions and Churches in Neueva Espana. Approximately 1800 pounds of cast silver banisters and a solid silver chandelier eight feet in diameter, so large that when a ladder is leaned against it, it does not move, with finger thick solid silver links. ONE CHURCH ALONE!

Maybe you should go back and reread my old thread about what the Jesuits admitted to having years after their suppression and jail terms were over. When there was no longer any need for secrecy in that subject.

Maybe you should also go and read Fray Junipero Serra's account of what he recovered from the Jesuit Missions when he was tasked with founding the California Missions.

Don't tell me we're gonna have to start calling you Joe Lamaro! HAHAHA


Best-Mike

 

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[Infosponge]

Howdy Don Jose,

Lets just say "The Pima uprising was no Alamo." It appears that the good Jesuit Father's involved with the 1751 revolt should have been wearing yellow robes instead of black, or at the very least should have had a yellow streak running down the back of their robes. It appears that Farther Nentvig received a warning note from farther Sedelmayr warning him of the impending attack on Saric, and he procurred himself a horse and hightailed it out of there without warning anyone else. Nentvig saved his own hide while leaving men, women, and children to die, some of which were his faithfull servants! The Pima's were pretty mad when they realized the good Farther Nentvig had escaped, it seems they wanted him dead pretty bad. To top that off Nentvig made his way to Tubatama where he joined up with Sedelmayr, where they could have went down in history just like the defenders of the Alamo and received their martyrdom. But sadly they choose to sneak off into the dark, leaving behind two brave and wounded defenders to die in order to save their own arses! At the very least, they didn't welcome martyrdom like the good Father Seata did at Caborca in 1695. But maybe it's just me, maybe I'm reading it wrong?

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

There are many kinds of bravery, not all tied to mortal battle. If you have read that the Jesuits were cowards, you may have missed a lot of stories. Somewhat sad that you folks are blind to the heroic side of the Order. IMHO, In focusing on the evil/negative side of their history, you miss something very nobel and important.

I believe it would be best for me to distance myself from this conversation.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
Cactusjumper wrote

Roy and Mike,

I don't know how I can make my position any clearer. The Jesuits in the final analysis were just men. As such they had all the frailties of the rest of us. In Roy's quote in bold, "some" does not equate to all, or even many. It means some.

Well that "some" is what we are debating isn't it? You seem to lean to the extreme low number (two, those admitted by Father Polzer) while we seem to be leaning the other way. The Society of Jesus was a very large operation as you know, it would be silly to say that ALL were mining gold, fishing for pearls and selling African slaves.

Cactusjumper also wrote

You will forgive me if I take Charles Di Peso's characterization of who the Pima "targeted", which in plain English says.........everyone, over your own conclusions. Now it's true that Di Peso was not a treasure hunter in the purest sense of the word, but he knew Pima history forward and backward.

Like all men he was not perfect, much like the Jesuits, which is why he made a mistake, in my opinion, as well as many of his peers, and placed the original location of Tumacacori in the wrong place. Despite that, his historical knowledge of the Upper Pima was head and shoulders above many in his field.

I don't mind whom you choose to accept or dismiss, and will point out that what I posted were the English translations of Pima testimony, letters of the actual Jesuits involved, not the re-processed version as given by any historian, however qualified. Di Peso could have spent his entire life living in the Pima tribe and studying all the documentation that exists, and what he publishes will be his take on it. I prefer to read the original testimonies and documents when ever possible, and avoid any "spin" put on by historians.
<I wrote>

".....little wonder that the Franciscans found the pimas to be virtually un-educated in the Catholic faith if you think about it."

<And Cactusjumper replied>

This statement does not match the history that I have read. When you say "Franciscans" can you give us a source for that information. Did it come from many Franciscans, or was it just a few. When Father Kino died there just wasn't anyone to fill his shoes. Many of natives went back to the old ways, mainly because they didn't have regular visits from the Jesuits. That's the history that I have read, perhaps you have read something better.

I gave you the exact passage in another thread, from Father Garces, from a letter he wrote reporting on the conditions that existed in Pimeria Alta on his arrival there shortly after the departure of the Jesuits. Make of it what you will. Garces may have been coloring his own history book to cast a shadow on the Jesuits and light on his Franciscans for all I know, but he did write it. But consider that the Pope who actually suppressed the Jesuits, Clement XIV, had been a member of the Franciscans, and had successfully gotten Bishop Palafox beatified over the Jesuit opposition.

Cactusjumper also wrote

It may be that everything you say about the Jesuits is true, I wasn't there......and neither were you.

Where did I ever say that I was there? I certainly do not recall ever saying that, in any form. I was not present when the Mayflower landed at Plymouth Rock, but feel confident that it did happen.

Cactusjumper also wrote

I was a treasure hunter who believed in Jesuit treasure, so I have argued your side of the debate for years. The facts on the ground and historically, don't support my old position.

Take care,

Joe

Well I respectfully disagree about the 'facts on the ground' for what I can see, they do support the fact of Jesuits operating mines, ranches and farming fields, besides even smelting operations. Not all Jesuit mines are lost, neither are all the evidences of their refining, or even of the gold itself; The still existing Jesuit churches also show the results - like the example posted in another thread, <"La Compania" church in Quito, Ecuador> which displays seven tons of gold. The Jesuits didn't get thrown out of so many different countries for baptising too many babies.

The 1751 Pima revolt which we have covered, is not the only instance we could look at; the Pimas rose in rebellion several times, and lest we forget some of the other tribes, lets take a quick peek at the 1740 Yaqui-Mayo rebellion;

Rebellion of the Yaqui, Pima, and Mayo Indians - Sinaloa and Sonora (1740). The Yaqui and Mayo Indians had lived in peaceful coexistence with the Spaniards since the early part of the Seventeenth Century. Ms. Deeds, in describing the causes of this rebellion, observes that the Jesuits had ignored "growing Yaqui resentment over lack of control of productive resources." During the last half of the Seventeenth Century, so much agricultural surplus was produced that storehouses needed to be built. These surpluses were used by the missionaries to extend their activities northward into the California and Pima missions. The immediate cause of the rebellion is believed to have been a poor harvest in late 1739, followed in 1740 by severe flooding which exacerbated food shortages.

Ms. Deeds also points out that the "increasingly bureaucratic and inflexible Jesuit organization obdurately disregarded Yaqui demands for autonomy in the selection of their own village officials." Thus, this rebellion, writes Ms. Deeds, was "a more limited endeavor to restore the colonial pact of village autonomy and territorial integrity." At the beginning of the revolt, an articulate leader named El Muni emerged in the Yaqui community. El Muni and another Yaqui leader, Bernabé, took the Yaquis' grievances to local civil authorities. Resenting this undermining of their authority, the Jesuits had Muni and Bernabé arrested.

The arrests triggered a spontaneous outcry, with two thousand armed indigenous men gathering to demand the release of the two leaders. The Governor, having heard the complaints of both sides, recommended that the Yaqui leaders go to Mexico City to testify personally before the Viceroy and Archbishop Vizrón. In February 1740, the Archbishop approved all of the Yaqui demands for free elections, respect for land boundaries, that Yaquis be paid for work, and that they not be forced to work in mines.

The initial stages of the 1740 revolt saw sporadic and uncoordinated activity in Sinaloa and Sonora, primarily taking place in the Mayo territory and in the Lower Pima Country. Catholic churches were burned to the ground while priests and settlers were driven out, fleeing to the silver mining town at Alamos. Eventually, Juan Calixto raised an army of 6,000 men, composed of Pima, Yaqui and Mayo Indians. With this large force, Calixto gained control of all the towns along the Mayo and Yaqui Rivers.

However, in August 1740, Captain Agustín de Vildósola defeated the insurgents. The rebellion, however, had cost the lives of a thousand Spaniards and more than 5,000 Indians. After the 1740 rebellion, the new Governor of Sonora and Sinaloa began a program of secularization by posting garrisons in the Yaqui Valley and encouraging Spanish residents to return to the area of rebellion. The Viceroy ordered the partition of Yaqui land in a "prudent manner." The Yaquis had obtained a reputation for being courageous warriors during the rebellion of 1740 and the Spanish handled them quite gingerly during the late 1700s. As a result, the government acquisition of Yaqui lands did not begin began until 1768.

<from http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/sonora.html

So here again, we have the Indians going to the "evil" Spaniards with their complaints about the Jesuits, and the results are disastrous to the Indians. Does that ring right, if the whole mythos of the great protectors of the Indians, the Jesuits were so kind and caring of their flocks? It doesn't ring right to me.

I don't expect to change your mind on the Jesuits, Joe; but you are aware that they do not confine their activities to proselytizing the pagans and never have. You personally have a bone with the illegal Mexican 'invasion' of Arizona and the US - so perhaps you might be surprised to learn that American Jesuits support that invasion? If you think I am making this up, just look into the 'Kino Border Initiative' and who openly supports it. John McGarry, Provincial of the California Province of the Society of Jesus, and Thomas Smolich, President of Jesuit Conference of the United States—Smolich being the most powerful Jesuit in North America. Still think the Jesuits are and always were, the good guys?

When a large organization is found to be lying, do you not then view all of their statements with suspicion? <Example, the USAF and the 1947 Roswell incident; no less than four official versions, all somewhat different and admitting to lying.> Don't forget that the Jesuits today claim they never had any mines or treasures, and Polzer admits of two priests caught mining. This is hardly the worst sort of activities the Jesuits have been involved in, right up to today.

Good luck and good hunting, if you are completely convinced that all those stories of Jesuit treasures and lost mines are so much hot air, you have plenty of support from the Society of Jesus as well as several MODERN historians.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

You will forgive me if I take Charles Di Peso's characterization of who the Pima "targeted", which in plain English says.........everyone, over your own conclusions.

Those aren't my conclusions. Those quotes were taken directly from the National Park Service's Website.

Best-Mike

 

[Infosponge]

Cactusjumper,

There are many kinds of bravery, not all tied to mortal battle.

True! As a matter of fact, the Jesuits came full well on their own accord knowing that there was a good chance they would be martyred, that in of itself is a sure sign of bravery.

If you have read that the Jesuits were cowards, you may have missed a lot of stories.

The Jesuits were taught that they could suffer no better death than that which came with the glorification of martyrdom. It appears that maybe these Jesuits decided they weren't worthy of it. I believe what I posted was specific to the Jesuits involved in the 1751 Pima uprising, not all Jesuits as a whole.

Somewhat sad that you folks are blind to the heroic side of the Order. IMHO, In focusing on the evil/negative side of their history, you miss something very nobel and important.

Is it not biased, or onesided, if we are only shown or allowed to discuss the shiny side of the coin and not the dark and tarnished side?

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Sponge, I agree with you with the exception of ME. Heck I suppose that even Obuma has a few good points ?

Incidentally the battle that stopped the Indians took place about 15 miles away on a flat plain, Like to hear of it? See pictures of the area? It started at Baroyeca and ended near Alamos.

I have often toyed with the idea of working the area with a metal detector.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

Just to be clear, I just don't want to be involved in a conversation that simply bashes and defends the Jesuit Order. It's well trodden ground that quickly becomes tiresome. For men to kneel on the ground and pray to their god as savages and they were savages, as were the Spanish, are surrounding them and shooting them full of arrows, does not seem the act of cowards. That is a fact that I have been aware of since I first started reading as a child.

I do consider it "biased" and one sided when people only point out the cases where specific Jesuits failed to act in an admirable manner. In the 1751 Pima Rebellion I am sure that some of the Jesuit Fathers went to their deaths in an admirable way. There was a problem finding witnesses to their deaths to give us an accurate account.

As you know, we are allowed to discuss both sides of any issue here. My problems with this discussion do not have anything to do with the tarnashed side of the Jesuit "coin". Rather, it's the contentious manner of our replies to each other over opposing opinions.

I have always said that some Jesuits acted in less than admirable ways. Others, you just have to tip your hat to, if you are giving history a fair reading. The problem is the other side, that would seem to include you, never seems to hear the full extent of my argument.

On the other hand, I believe this is the first time I have seen you voice the other side of the coin.

In the final analysis, none of this has any direct bearing on Jesuit mining or enslavement of the Indians for that purpose. It simply falls on the side of always showing the Jesuits in the worst possible light, ergo.......they must have been involved in mining.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Gee Joe,

Somewhat sad that you folks are blind to the heroic side of the Order.

Never thought that you were THAT inattentive or intellectually dishonest! You say "you folks", and since I am of an opposing viewpoint, I guess you are referring to me as well.

In the first post in my Jesuit Treasures Thread:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,286969.0.html

First, nobody can argue that number 4 is not absolutely true. Both the spiritual and exploratory work they did from 1608 until their expulsion in 1767 was a wonder for the ages. An example of how a small group of determined people can make such extraordinary advances in the knowledge base of mankind and bringing the light of God into the hearts of so many people in a frightening new world. One has only to read about Padre Kino SJ and his changing of world maps that previous to his explorations showed California as an island. He was the first to contradict that idea. Other testaments lie in all the missions that were manned by the tiniest number of Jesuit Fathers in some of the most hostile territory on Earth. Many of them gave their lives in the most gruesome manners imaginable at the hands of those that fought the changes they wanted to bring.

I think that pretty much sums up how I feel about the Jesuits. I have several friends and acquaintances who are Jesuits. I get a lot of Jesuit Historical information from two of the world's foremost Jesuit Historians (one at Georgetown and one at Loyola Marymount)(and did I mention that they were both Jesuit Priests?). And as I have stated before, my friend at Georgetown University has (surprisingly) never expressed any problems with Jesuits owning and operating mines secretly in the New World (although he agrees with me that it was probably primarily done through Temporal Coadjutors).

So Joe, feel free to say what you will, facts show that just because I don't agree with you regarding Jesuit Treasures, I am not Jesuit Bashing. If I state a fact about an unsavory issue in Jesuit History, its only that, a fact, not Jesuit Bashing.

What Sponge posted regarding Father Nentvig is absolutely correct. He displayed absolute cowardice. He left his Majordomo and his family to die at the hands of the Pima without even a warning when he rode off.

The Father that was surrounded by Pima and made into a pincushion didn't happen quite as you characterized. He was in bed. Indians came into his bedroom and shot him up while asleep. He didn't have a chance to get to his knees and pray. Although the arrows didn't kill him. He crawled outside and laid down next to a tree. The Indians found him later and one crushed his head with a rock.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

As long as you're satisfied that you have been even handed, I'm satisfied.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

...........although maybe he DID go a bit far with the Yellow Robes line.

Best-Mike

 

[Infosponge]

Cactusjumper,

There is no doubt nor question about the good the Jesuits have claimed they have done. In fact, I have stood in awe at some of their accomplishments, but does that good justify any wrong that might have been done? I wonder what you would do if radical Muslims took control of you here today, declared you an Infadel, (same as being declared a savage, by the way those savages lived just fine for thousands of years without the Jesuits.) outlawed your religious beliefs, demanded you convert to their religion, destroyed your church and built a Mosque on it, demanded you pray to their God, and took control of every waking moment of your life? Now remember they believe they are doing the right thing to save you from being an Infadel, and in their eyes your soul will be saved for their God, and to assimilate you to being a good Muslim! Would you flee from their control? would you take up arms against them? Or would you see that what they were doing was right, and a good thing?

Gollum,

Okay, I admit maybe I did go a bit too far with the yellow robes analogy in place of the word coward. But as you yourself have admitted, it was extremely cold hearted for Father Nentvig to have a horse procurred for himself to sneak out of Saric without warning anyone else of the impending attack. What happened to women and children first? After all, the people who were attacked and killed were the people working with or for the Jesuits. But as Cactusjumper has said I must remember "it was a different time and place" and the people Nentvig left behind to die were considered "savages." But maybe there's a chance I have missconstrued things? Afterall, I'm only human.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Afternoon my friends: We mustn't forget that the Indians revolted in 1740, 1746,and again in the 1750's . Something must have been upsetting them, 3 times in only 10 years or so?

http://books.google.com.mx/books?id...Q6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=baroyeca sonora&f=false

Also don't forget that they were also conspiring to take North America away from Spain. They are still involved in politics throughout the world.

As sponge put it so nicely, they were hard taskmasters, especially in religious affairs. They were the ones that favored the Inquisition more than the others.

This doesn't mean that I don't respect them. As is known, I felt rather honored that Father Polzer was a friend and we discussed Tayopa various times. I still have an unfinished date to stay with the resident Jesuit in Yecora and discuss mines, and in particular, Tayopa.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. when I first met Fr Charles Polzer, I asked him "how should I address you "? He replied "anything that you wish, but 'never' late for dinner". He did have an excellent sense of humor

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Just to be clear, I just don't want to be involved in a conversation that simply bashes and defends the Jesuit Order.

This makes for a very difficult discussion; you want to have this debate, often post little 'barbs' ridiculing the very idea of Jesuit mines and treasures, and place us (yep including you too Mike, for you are on the opposing side of the issue from Joe's position) in the position of having to post all the negative material, in order to point out that the Jesuits were not all a bunch of walking angels seeking only to save the souls of the heathens. Yet when this negative information is posted, you are offended. Maybe I should resort to posting little barbs ridiculing the idea of Jesuits as holy men? Your attitude on this subject is baffling to me.

You have mentioned about how we modern people should not be passing judgements on the acts of men living centuries ago in very different times; yet then go on to lavish praise on those same men for their courage, their fortitude and efforts in 'saving souls' - which is likewise passing judgements (positive judgements, but still judgements) on men living centuries ago. The Jesuit mission system was no utopia for the Indians; they were forced to work for the padres three days per week, (most of us would be thrilled to have a three day work-week, but we get PAID) with all the proceeds of that work going into the mission warehouse/grain bins etc. They were NOT free to leave the missions, if they had become Christians, and surely you don't expect that all Indians should have happily and voluntarily wanted to live that way - they were farmers yes, but they were also hunter-gatherers that required moving over the countryside for obtaining game, nuts, berries, medicine plants, skins, even paints. Fairly often you can find Indians questioning why the white men (Spanish, Jesuits, etc) were free to go whereever they wanted, but the Indians could not. (This complaint also common on Indian reservations in the USA). Yes the Jesuits were brave men (by and large) father Kino especially, but even Kino had soldiers escorting him most of the time, and there were reasons why the missionaries complained about the constant problem of runaway Indians.

It is true that some Indian tribes had actually asked for missionaries for their people, including the Pimas we have been discussing, but the reality of having a mission system (the reducciones) turned out to be different from what they must have been expecting. Can you name a single Amerindian tribe of the southwest, that never once rose in rebellion? Take a look at other Indian rebellions against the Spanish (and Mexicans) such as the 1680 Pueblo revolt; the Franciscan padres there had cracked down on the Kachina worship and had a number of men whipped for 'witchcraft' <or sorcery> - this on top of the forced labor system and 'donations' of foods was too much and the peace-loving Pueblos burned the churches and put 23 padres to death. This episode is not far different from that in Pimeria or with the Yaquis, Mayos, etc. Yes it is 'passing judgement' to be saying that forced labor and not being free to travel is tantamount to enslaving the natives, but not different <as in passing judgements> from hero-worship of the intrepid Jesuit padres who explored unknown lands and brought the light of Christianity to the heathens. We are all children of our own times, and tend to judge others from the past in accordance, whether this is fair or not.


Don Jose' - that looks like it would be a very interesting book, however unfortunately for me, the site will not allow me to view the pages; do you know if it is available elsewhere, and hopefully in English? Thank you in advance;
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Infosponge]

Gentlemen,

It is Cactusjumpers contention that this whole discussion of the Pima uprising in 1751, and our contention that the Jesuits were targeted, is a waste of time because it has nothing to do with Jesuit mining or Jesuit treasure. Maybe it doesn't, but then again maybe it does! The book titled “Pimas, Dead Padres and Gold” which was written from Paul Lease's forty years of research, makes just that claim. That the uprising of 1751 was a well planned robbery of the missions by a hand full of Spaniard's, who employed the Indian's to do what they did. I must admit when I first read the story I was a wee bit skeptical myself, but after many years of research I have come across some information which lends credence to the story. I know this sounds ludicrous to some, but if even part of the story is true, it points a finger of suspicion at the Jesuits being involved in illicit activity of accumulating large amounts of wealth and clandestinely smuggling it out of the country. Can any of this be proven beyond a shadow of doubt? All the evidence I have accumulated so far is nothing more than circumstantial, so the answer to that question is no! But in the meantime, it is making for very interesting research.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning sponger: You posted --> it points a finger of suspicion at the Jesuits being involved in illicit activity of accumulating large amounts of wealth and clandestinely smuggling it out of the country. Can any of this be proven beyond a shadow of doubt? All the evidence I have accumulated so far is nothing more than circumstantial, so the answer to that question is no!
***************
That is my present project. The production from the Tayopa complex was originally smuggled to Rome via the way stations / small churches After, when they knew that they were going to be expelled, they commenced to stockpile it at Tayopa in various deposits.

Side thought , could it just have been possible that the 'Crown' was the Spaniards behind it?? what better way to pull them up a bit, while remaining above reproach in the normal Royal circles. Politics were just as dirty then as now. The mission priests probably were not involved in heavy mining, but the society was.

"They were expendable in the interests of both parties"

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"The production from the Tayopa complex was originally smuggled to Rome via the way stations / small churches After, when they knew that they were going to be expelled, they commenced to stockpile it at Tayopa in various deposits."

How many years to you figure that system was in place?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Which Joe? Incidentally I certainly do not hold it against the society to mine for their betterment. What is the moral difference between crops, animal husbandry wine making, or mining, etc. After all, man's laws are not the Lords laws , man's laws change hourly, the Lords never.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I believe there was only one (1) "system" in the above quote. That would be the system used to move the gold out of Mexico to "Rome".

Just another case of my inability to express my questions so they can be understood. Been that way for a long time now. Actually, just since 2002 when I first started posting on forums.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Here is another qualified opinion:

[Even as the Seris maintained a smoldering "low intensity" war, successfully repelling two major expeditions launched against them, the northern Pimas rebelled in 1751; the fury of their movement fell against the mission pueblos. As many as 1,000 warriors from the Altar and Concepción valleys and the Papagueria, moving in separate bands, attacked numerous villages and small mining and ranching settlements.

They burned and sacked churches and other mission property, stole or destroyed entire herds of cattle, and murdered two missionaries: Tomás Tello of Caborca and Enrique Rúhen of Sonoitac. Pima rebels held the Spanish military at bay for more than two months, until a combined force of presidial troops and militiamen defeated them at Aribac, leaving more than 100 warriors dead. A similar number of vecinos had perished over the course of the rebellion, and Spanish property was reduced to ashes.

In the ensuing investigation, it was alleged that rebel leaders had vowed to "finish off the Spanish nation and live alone in the land that belonged to them." Their anger is striking in view of the fact that at this time the Pimeria Alta was not heavily settled by gente de razon. Santa Ana and Soledad constituted the only reales de minas of any importance, although the area from Oquitoa to Bac was dotted with small mines and ranches that were the Pimas' principal targets. The destruction or theft of the vecinos' cattle -- as with the Seris' warcraft -- constituted both a tactic and an objective. By killing off the ganado mesteno, the Indians defended their own territory, attacked Spanish property, and reduced their adversaries' mobility.

It is equally significant that the Pimas singled out two missionaries for death, considering them espanoles and, as such, among the enemy. Padres Tello and Ruhen may have fallen victim to the Indians' wrath because of their relative isolation in Caborca and Sonoitac. The latter friar had only recently arrived at his post; as occurred with Padre Saeta half a century earlier, the Tohono O'odham of this remote rancheía rejected the demands that a resident priest made on their daily lives and his interference in the intimate details of their familial organization. The Pimas' testimony before Governor Ortiz Parrilla expressed their resentment against work discipline, corporal punishment, and other burdens of mission life. Notwithstanding the Indians' articulate protest, the reason for the uprising went beyond these immediate grievances to questions of power and leadership within the Pima community.] Wandering Peoples: Colonialism, Ethnic Spaces, and Ecological Frontiers in Northwestern Mexico, 1700-1850. By Cynthia Radding http://history.unc.edu/faculty/cynthia-radding.html
_________________________________

The first thing that comes to mind, at least for me, is where is it recorded that the Pima's charged the Jesuits with enslaving them to work in their (Jesuit) mines. Are we to believe that the Spanish would cover up such charges and weren't interested in such mining? In fact, I have not seen any allegations of Jesuit mining that originated from the Indians of Mexico. That being said, as much as the Jesuits were hated by the natives, I'm sure there must be such records.

Take care,

Joe