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[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

["No one will work mines. this includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly."
then the evidence of slag heaps means nothing. This is exactly why I would question the authenticity of such a document, when iron and other minerals were so vital to the lives of the early settlers. To prohibit them from mining any minerals is nearly the same as imposing a sentence on them my friend. Also, secular regulations were not imposed regionally in the New World by the Royality of Spain. They were imposed for everyone, all of the Kings' subjects, as it were.]

I would suggest, once again, that you leave Bolivia behind you, if you want to research the rules and precepts as they relate to the Jesuits of Sonora.

"As I previously stated, I am unaware of any such rules being in existence. If you are able to provide any factual ACCURATE documented proof in this regard, please feel free to do so. I am only interested in actual filed documentation...."

Unless I am assuming too much, I doubt you have documentation to back up one word of your last few posts. Nor do I. Here is what I base my opinions on:

My own research over the years is dependent on historians like: Father Charles Polzer, Herbert E. Bolton, Dunne, Donohue, Burrus, Roca, Hu-DeHart.......etc. I have especially looked into the history and character of Father Polzer. That entailed more than reading his writings. It included conversations with his friends and associates......in almost every case, they were both.

I came away with a confident trust in the moral compass of the man. When he writes that he used the Archivo General de Indias, Casa Lonja. Sevilla, Spain...Archivo General de la Nacion. Palacio Nacional, Mexico City, Mexico....Archivo Historico de Hacienda.....Archivo Historico Nacional......Archivo del Hidalgo del Parral.....Archivo de la Provincia de Mexico....Archivum Romanum Societatis Jesu.......Bancroft Library Manuscripts.....Biblioteca Nacional de Mexico.....Biblioteca Nacional de Espana......The Charles E. Beineke Collection......The Mariano Cuevas Collection......The Herbert E. Bolton Papers.......The Mateu Collection....
The Pablo Pastells Collection on New Spain and Hispaic America.....The Pablo Pastells Collection on the Philippines and the Marianas Islands.......The W.B. Stevens Collection.......The University of Arizona Special Collections and the Batican Library Microfilm Collection as the "Principal Arcives" for his research for "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain", you will forgive me for taking his word over that of my friend, Lamar.

I won't list the "Printed Works-Books, General References, Articles" that he sourced.

Do I have access to the documents? Of course not. Do I have FAITH in the authenticity of facts in Father Polzer's book? Yes!

Other than explaining how the rules and precepts were given to the Jesuits of Northwestern New Spain, and exactly who conceived and delivered them, that's the best I can do for now.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
You previously stated:

I appreciate your answer concerning the construction methods of Bolivia, but we are talking about
SONORA, MEXICO and, specifically, the 1500s through the 1700s. What we are looking for, is another explanation for the slag found at the mission foundry, besides the gold and silver/treasure assumption.


Now I wish to clarify my previous statements just a bit, if I may. ALL but the larges current production methods being used in Bolivia today are the same methods that were used by the ALL of COLONISTS throughout the New World. To expound this point even further, the colonists in South America used the same methods and techniques and they did in Mexico and Central America and it's these very same methods and techniques which are currently in use here in Bolivia. Therefore, if I wish to know how the colonists manufactured bricks, mortar or anything else, all I have to do is to observe how the natives are doing it in Bolivia, as the methods are almost identical to ones utilized 500 or more years ago. Neat, huh? Like I previously stated, I am living in a country which has a living history.

Now, if I may ask a logical question. Why would the Europeans bring iron ore from Europe when iron ore was quite plentiful throughout the New World? This makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever, my friend. Perhaps during the very early days of the colonization of the New World, smelted iron was brought over from Europe in the form of ingots (pig iron) for manufacturing goods at local blacksmith shops until the mines could get up and running. However, even if this did happen, and I am NOT stating that it did, it probably didn't take long at all for mines to be established in the New World.

Again, I know of no factual records to prove the statement that iron ore was brought from Europe to the New World, and this should be quite easy to prove or disprove. All one needs to do is to analyze the slag, and from the examination one can tell from what region the mineral came from and also the timeframe the ore was smelted in, by the remaining trace amounts of minerals lock inside of the slag.

As a gentle reminder, I am still waiting with bated breath for the archived documentation stating that:

"No one will work mines. this includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly."

I do not need many particulars and merely stating the year in which it was written will be satisfactory for my purposes. Please give this matter your utmost consideration as this will in fact be quite a revelation for many concerned parties.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Of course I have access to the documentation to back up my words, my friend. It's too easy to get caught if you can't put your money where your mouth is. Remember once again, I am living in Bolivia, which have not one, but SEVERAL National Archives, going all of the way back to the colonists. And if these archives are inadaquate for my needs, then I can always venture to Lima, Pucalpa, Quito, or Cuzco, Peru.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
I will settle for an account written by the Reverend Fr. Polzer stating that:

"No one will work mines. this includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly."


If I may please have the volume title, and the page number I would greatly appreciate it, my friend. I think I should need to read this for myself, as I know of Fr. Polzer by reputation and his research work is impecciable and studiously thought out. He has never been one to work on theories and assumptions and although I didn't see eye to eye on some of his opinions regarding other matters, but in the realm of history his work is exemplary.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

"as the methods are almost identical to ones utilized 500 or more years ago".

What do you mean......"almost"?

"Now, if I may ask a logical question. Why would the Europeans bring iron ore from Europe when iron ore was quite plentiful throughout the New World? This makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever, my friend. Perhaps during the very early days of the colonization of the New World, smelted iron was brought over from Europe in the form of ingots (pig iron) for manufacturing goods at local blacksmith shops until the mines could get up and running. However, even if this did happen, and I am NOT stating that it did, it probably didn't take long at all for mines to be established in the New World.

Again, I know of no factual records to prove the statement that iron ore was brought from Europe to the New World, and this should be quite easy to prove or disprove. All one needs to do is to analyze the slag, and from the examination one can tell from what region the mineral came from and also the timeframe the ore was smelted in, by the remaining trace amounts of minerals lock inside of the slag."

I am aware, once again, that you are not aware of any "factual records to prove the statement that iron ore was brought from Europe to the New World" That's why I gave you the name, "La Isabela"..........
To make you aware.

"All one needs to do is to analyze the slag, and from the examination one can tell from what region the mineral came from and also the timeframe the ore was smelted in, by the remaining trace amounts of minerals lock inside of the slag."

Once you research the history of La Isabela, you will realize....that was done.

"As a gentle reminder, I am still waiting with bated breath for the archived documentation stating that:

"No one will work mines. this includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly."

I do not need many particulars and merely stating the year in which it was written will be satisfactory for my purposes. Please give this matter your utmost consideration as this will in fact be quite a revelation for many concerned parties."

Don't really know who the "concerned parties" might be, but will assume they are also " waiting with bated breath"

The original precept you question, came from Father Provincial Joseph de Arjo in 1725. The instructions were given directly to Father Juan de Guendulain and created the new post of, "Visitor General for the missions". His position "nearly equaled that of the Provincial". The precepts set forth by Father Provincial Joseph de Arjo, were passed to Father Juan de Guendulain and from him they proceeded down to the individual missionaries.

The "new" instructions were, "a subtle revision of Cabrero's Code".

Things were different in northwestern New Spain. In order to debate the subject, you need to study that region...... as they had their own unique system of "Rules and Precepts".

Thanks for your reply,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

[Dear cactusjumper;
I will settle for an account written by the Reverend Fr. Polzer stating that:

"No one will work mines. this includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly."]

Those are kind words for Father Polzer, and he deserves them.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HOLA PeEPS:Lamra posted --->

Now I wish to clarify my previous statements just a bit, if I may. ALL but the larges current production methods being used in Bolivia today are the same methods that were used by the ALL of COLONISTS throughout the New World. To expound this point even further, the colonists in South America used the same methods and techniques and they did in Mexico and Central America and it's these very same methods and techniques which are currently in use here in Bolivia. Therefore, if I wish to know how the colonists manufactured bricks, mortar or anything else, all I have to do is to observe how the natives are doing it in Bolivia, as the methods are almost identical to ones utilized 500 or more years ago. Neat, huh? Like I previously stated, I am living in a country which has a living history
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree 100% In Sonora today, they still use this same tech. in the back country for making brick and roof tile. For Iron they now use already smelted ore. In fact they still make bakery goodies in the old fashioned bee hive ovens
==============================================================

Now, if I may ask a logical question. Why would the Europeans bring iron ore from Europe when iron ore was quite plentiful throughout the New World? This makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Again I agree 100%. As a matter of fact, they were mining iron ore in Hispanola & Cuba from the first days..
==============================================================

I can always venture to Lima, Pucalpa, Quito, or Cuzco, Peru
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Or Mexico he he he
=============================================================

CJ posted --->

Things were different in northwestern New Spain. In order to debate the subject, you need to study that region...... as they had their own unique system of "Rules and Precepts".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree with you on this , however I will disagree on simple heating and cooling being enough to fragment the slag into a mesh small encugh to be of practical usage in bricksor roof tile.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

From The Slag Cement Association:

"Slag cement has been around for a long time. Its history parallels that of portland cement (which was patented by Aspdin in 1824). Earliest documented use of slag cement was in 1774, as a mortar in combination with slaked lime. Advances in slag removal and granulation processes resulted in the first commercial use of slag-lime cement in Germany in the 1860's. The Paris underground metro was built utilizing these cements, beginning in 1889."

Also from the Slag Cement Association:

"The molten iron is sent to the steel producing facility, while the molten slag is diverted to a granulator. This process, known as granulation, is the rapid quenching with water of the molten slag into raw material called granules. Rapid cooling prohibits the formation of crystals and forms glassy, non-metallic silicates and aluminosilicates of calcium. These granules are dried and then ground to a suitable fineness, the result of which is slag cement. The granules can also be incorporated as an ingredient in the manufacture of blended portland cement."

Just for general information.

Jose,

I wrote: "The reduction of the slag only requires rapid cooling with water." Where do you see the word "simple"?
I believe that IS the process of reduction.....in this case. I could, of course, be wrong.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Cactusjumper wrote:

Considering the vast amount of documents available making the case for the Jesuits not creating the treasure you wish for, or using native labor to mine it, I would like to see something more substantial than fake artifacts and the story of a pile of slag. Is that unreasonable?

I can understand your desire for such UNDENIABLE, INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence, something that can not be questioned. However, everything can be questioned. With this case we are discussing, there SHOULD be very little in the way of “documentation” and we would only find the tales passed down via Amerindians, which is exactly what we have, at least according to those treasure hunters who ‘went before’ us, and were able to talk with Amerindians still living that had family stories to tell. I can tell you that we are unlikely to find any such Amerindians today. (One of the sad things about assimilation into one nation, is that a great deal of tribal/ethnic ‘cultural’ history is lost.) What you are demanding is that Jose, Mike or I provide you with absolute proof, that would convict the Jesuits of wrongdoing in mining in the New World. I will not provide it, as un-satisfying as that may be for you Cactusjumper, as I have NO desire to convict the Jesuits or any other order of wrongdoing. Besides, what could be my own standard of “absolute” proof is likely quite different from your own standard of what constitutes “absolute” proof.

Cactusjumper also wrote:

Do you assume the furnaces in San Juan Capistrano were actually used to process gold and silver, and this study is flawed?

No I do not assume the furnaces in San Juan Capistrano were used to process anything other than their findings. Slag from iron ore shows clear indications of having been iron ore, including a rusty appearance.

Cactusjumper also wrote:

If not, do you see where there could be another explanation for your slag pile?

I see where there COULD be another explanation, if the slag had NOT been sold for the silver content and had a rusty appearance. Slag from processing iron ore has little value for any kind of metal content. (I worked for two years at a steel plant in PA making stainless steel tubing. The rusty look was un-mistakable.)

Cactusjumper also wrote:

Could the slag have been a byproduct of the Jesuits/Indians production of metal artifacts....for their own use, as well as for trade to the other missions?

Could the slag have been used in the production of tiles, bricks and mortar?

If the answers to those questions are YES, where are the same connections to a secret, hidden Jesuit treasure?

Could the slag have been a byproduce of making metal artifacts for their own use, trade etc? Obviously yes, if those artifacts were SILVER.

Could the slag have been used in the production of tiles, bricks and mortar? No. Your own (later) post includes a very solid reason why too, quote:

Earliest documented use of slag cement was in 1774,

Since the answers to those questions are NOT what you concluded they would be, your question is superfluous; for what connection indeed. [)

Cactusjumper also wrote:

only one has documented history on it's side.

You are using the term “documented” pretty fast and loose here; for one thing there ARE documents within the existing ‘library’ that are certainly NOT conducive to “proving” utter innocence on the part of ALL Jesuits. Or do you choose not to accept the statements of Father Nentvig, a Jesuit priest? You must know that what we have remaining TODAY is a mere fraction of what records existed in the colonial period; for example there remains only a SINGLE probate of a will from the colonial period of Sonora/Arizona, when it is known that more were recorded. We also know that de Anza first went to see three Jesuit priests when he was investigating the reports of “planchas de plata” to enquire as to what silver ore and silver mining should look like, versus silver found as a form of ancient stashed treasure. (Which would make it the property of the Crown, as he ruled in this case but was later overturned.) Why would de Anza have bothered with obtaining information on silver mining from Jesuits, if they were so utterly devoid of any kind of mining experience?

Lamar wrote:

Perhaps things were different in Bolivia

Perhaps, but even in Bolivia there are tales of lost Jesuit mines. Among the Chiquitos for example, the Jesuits found the natives to be remarkably able at working precious metals. Would you state that NO Jesuit priest or monk EVER had a thing to do with mining in Bolivia, prior to the expulsion of 1767?

Lamar pointed out:
"No one will work mines. this includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly."

This rule is easily side-stepped, by simply NOT doing the work personally, besides it would be far easier to have native Amerindians do the work, as has been claimed by Amerindians to treasure hunters of the 1800s and early 1900s.

Lamar wrote:

Why would the Europeans bring iron ore from Europe when iron ore was quite plentiful throughout the New World? This makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever, my friend.

Iron ore was not plentiful throughout the New World at all, most of the large deposits had not been discovered in the period prior to 1780. Among English colonies, even though quite a few small iron foundries were at work, the supply of ore was dependent upon “bog iron” ore (of very low iron value) and other equally poor iron ores, which made the colonists largely dependent on imported European supplies of iron, even though iron foundries were to be found from Georgia to Maine. In fact, iron was so scarce that many colonists were forced to use far inferior tools and utensils, such as wooden shovels, pitchforks etc because they could not afford the imported iron equivalents.

Oroblanco

Postscript: Just visited Mike's new website, and found this intriguing photo:
http://1oro1.com/images/4F1.JPG
Are we to conclude the National Forest rangers are so mistaken as to engrave such a erroneous sign?

I hope we can point out that this is not a claim that the Jesuits were operating ALL or even MOST of the mines being worked in Spanish (and Portuguese) America, but that SOME activity was taking place. I see so many fellow treasure hunters who prefer to see everything in "black and white" either ALL were involved or NONE, which is not the case and not supported by the evidence in either case. Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you.

For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is nothing buried that will not be raised."] Gospel of Thomas: 5

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Oro Silver ,

"I see where there COULD be another explanation, if the slag had NOT been sold for the silver content and had a rusty appearance. Slag from processing iron ore has little value for any kind of metal content."

Can I assume the source for the "sold for the silver content" is not.....a treasure hunter?

"Could the slag have been a byproduce of making metal artifacts for their own use, trade etc? Obviously yes, if those artifacts were SILVER."

See my assumption for question #1

[Could the slag have been used in the production of tiles, bricks and mortar? No. Your own (later) post includes a very solid reason why too, quote:

Quote
Earliest documented use of slag cement was in 1774,]

Can you tell me how long the bark of Aspen trees was used for headaches and scurvy, before it was documented?
How long before documentation, did the Indians of the Southwest mine coal? How long was slag used in mortar, tiles and brick before someone decided to put the process in print? Could it have been 100 years......200....farther?
How long were pyramids in Caral before they were documented?

"You are using the term “documented” pretty fast and loose here; for one thing there ARE documents within the existing ‘library’ that are certainly NOT conducive to “proving” utter innocence on the part of ALL Jesuits. Or do you choose not to accept the statements of Father Nentvig, a Jesuit priest?"

I have one of the translations of "Rudo Ensayo", it is one of many. No doubt you are aware that the original came through the hands of Franciscans. My copy was "Translated, Clarified, and Annotated by ALBERTO FRANCISCO PRADEAU AND ROBERT R. RASMUSSEN". They used the "Mexico City" manuscript.

Father Nentvig could spin a pretty good yarn. His account of a tarantula biting off the hoof of a horse as the animal gallops by, is especially good reading.

The passage you quoted could be considered damning. It also could be considered hypothetical. If he had said the Indian would not talk if a stick were poked in his eye, does that mean Nentvig had a habit of doing that? Having read "Rudo Ensayo" a few times, I am more than willing to take the entire works as a whole, rather than use one short passage as the only truth to be found.

I assume you also have a copy of the book and read it as well. Nentvig mentions "mines/mining" on four pages.

San Francisco Javier de Huasabas Mission was served by many, many priests. First by the Franciscans around 1642.
In 1645, Father Cristobal Garcia, the first Jesuit at the mission arrived. He baptized 400. By 1678 many Jesuit missionaries had come and gone. In that year, Father Jose Covarrubis was the resident Jesuit. "It was reported that he was in charge of an attractive and quite large church, with a good vaulted transept made of wood, and with rich ornaments and fine silver for the altars."

Father Juan Nentvig arrived in 1752. He built a new church and "recorded it as being one of the most suitable in all of Sonora. Father Aguirre, the visatador, agreed, reporting not only that it was a fine church but that father Nentvig had installed two very fine paintings and splendid silver ornaments". Perhaps the Indian talked after all.

Have a good night.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Cactusjumper (and everyone),

You have assumed correctly viz Rudo Ensayo, but wrongly in the version; not one from the Franciscans. However your citing a strange incident which can be easily understood, by anyone who has lived and worked on western ranches, that of an animal like a horse in particular, having a hoof suddenly removed while galloping along is NOT a good example to impeach the author upon. I will explain:

The presence of prairie dog holes and especially in the southwest, gopher holes, is an ever-present danger to all livestock that walks on four legs. The poor animal, in running across the land, mis-steps into a hole that is not easy to notice at a run, and the lower leg is literally snapped off in an instant. Sometimes, the remaining hoof dangles on the stump of a leg, but often not. This results in many of the victims having to be put to death in order to end their misery. To a witness who did not understand what had happened, but noticed a big spider (the innocent tarantula) that was at or close to the spot where the horse stumbled into the gopher hole, instantly made the connection that the tarantula must have caused the horrific wound to the horse. This incident is not a good example to indict the testimony of Father Nentvig.

Cactusjumper you continue to (virtually) demand absolute proof, and I have said this repeatedly, I am not here to convict the Jesuits or any other order. You push me into posting information I would rather NOT share publicly. So much can be so easily mis-understood, especially by those of limited understanding, into very corrupt ideas of just what colonial America was like.

Cactusjumper, you personally own a copy of our good father Polzer’s work, which contains the precepts,
; I am assuming this from your earlier posts? If you do, or have access to a copy, may I ask you to post here, the words of precept #17, concerning the writing of letters bound for fellow Jesuits?

I must admit, that I found this on another forum that I am a member of; which has a similar discussion running for some time now. This other forum has some references which some of our good friends here might find helpful, perhaps even sway their view. Want evidence of Amerindian labor being used by a Jesuit in a mine?:
http://historyhuntersinternational.org/index.php?topic=2321.msg9201#msg9201

This particular letter does not directly connect the mission as having ownership of the mine, but that a Jesuit man is using the Amerindians to work in HIS mine; as I have tried to point out before, we are not talking about the Jesuit Society as a whole, but as INDIVIDUALS who were members, that are very likely the source of the legends. To the Indios, it is not a certainty that they would have known that a mine being owned or operated by a Jesuit did not belong directly to the Jesuit Society. (the man being complained about in the letter was not the father but the person taking care/control of the temporal needs of the church, or we would likely not have even this admission.)

Remember that little quote I provided you with, concerning the acceptance of GIFTS on the part of Jesuits? In most cases, permission is granted to KEEP it. Hmm. So if some member of the parish, in a wish to repay the kindness of some particular Jesuit padre, should have decided to give, grant, or WILL a mine to that Jesuit, are we to believe that the Society would forbid the Jesuit from accepting it? Now think back about what particular TYPE of documents from the colonial era are MISSING today, I mentioned this earlier: …..(if you can’t recall, or don’t feel like scrolling way back up to find it, it is PROBATES, which are the legal executions of WILLS.) I know that you Cactusjumper and Lamar (and myself, in truth) prefer to rely on original source material, but that is only possible when that original material is still in existence, or existed at all. As good as the Spanish were at documenting things, a great many things did not get documented. One look at the amount of treasure found in a Spanish wreck, compared with the actual manifest, is absolute evidence of this.

Your dismissal of the statements of father Nentvig as "hypothetical" really underlines your position, which does not encourage any further effort to convince you of Jesuit mining activities. It is not my mission in life to convince you, or anyone in particular. For some reason, it is quite alright to make such statements as the gold and silver found in the Jesuit church, being used by Jesuits, was not their own, it belonged "to the church"; equally this argument will work for mines as well. If you are convinced the Jesuits, as a whole and each individually, were of such saintly nature as to preclude any sort of wrongdoing, I do wish you would enquire into the Gunpowder Plot in England or the St Bartholomew's Massacre.

One of the most interesting items found in the Portuguese suppression of the Jesuits in Paraguay and Brazil was a document titled:
MONITA SECRETA SOCIETATIS JESU which translates out to:
'Secret Instruction of the Society of Jesus'

Numerous Jesuits have come forward to refute this document, but what else should we come to expect, whether the document is TRUE or FALSE, you would get denials.

Chap I
5. In a beginning it is not convenient to purchase property; but in case they can be found, some good sites may be bought, saying that they are to belong to other persons, using the names of some faithful friends, who will guard the secret. The better to make our poverty apparent, the property nearest our college must belong to colleges the most distant, that we can prevent the princes and magistrates from ever knowing that the income of the Society has a fixed point.

7. We must obtain and acquire of the widows all the money that we can, presenting ourselves at repeated times to their sight our extreme necessity.

8. The Superior over each province is the one to whom we must account with certainty, the income of the same; but the amount to the treasurer at Rome, it is, and must always be, an impenetrable mystery

.

Lest we get people convinced that the Jesuits were "into" child-molesting and other equally hideous acts, one need only read rule 1 from Chapter XIV UPON RESERVED CASES AND MOTIVES THAT NECESSITATE EXPULSION FROM THE SOCIETY. I put a bit in 'bold' to point it up, but note that the income is to remain an "impenetrable mystery". We already know from father Polzer, in Precept 17, that some "secret" things were not to be communicated in the open.

Think about the Jesuit expulsion from Spanish America (which went very much the same as the Portuguese expulsion which occurred earlier, and probably gave some warning to the padres in Spanish colonies) and the very FIRST question asked of the Jesuits upon their arrest. Where is the treasure? This fact flies in the face of the theory that the expulsion was solely grounded on "political" reasons. The fact that little treasure was found (NOT none!) only proves the Spanish soldiers to have been un-successful in finding it, not that it did not exist.

A statement was made that no accusations IN WRITING exist of any Jesuit wrongdoings in Spanish America, and I stated this is untrue - if you are in doubt, check out:

Title JOSEPH BASARTE TO THE VICEROY. REVIEW OF CHARGES AGAINST JESUITS IN CALIFORNIA FRAUD AND MISUSE OF FUNDS FOR MISSIONS IN SONORA, PIMERIA AND NAYARIT.

Author(s) BASARTE, JOSEPH

Date 00-00-1730 00-00-1770

Documentation MEXICO CITY. MAY 12, 1770. 20P. INFORME. ORIGINAL. DCT 1730-1770.

Summary REVIEW OF FINANCIAL AND ACCOUNTING ABUSES OF JESUITS IN CALIFORNIA, SONORA, PIMERIA AND NAYARIT. CONTAINS A NUMBER OF SPECIFIC ACCUSATIONS AGAINST JESUITS FOR FRAUD AND STATES THAT OVER A PERIOD OF 70 YEARS THEY EMBEZZLED MORE THAN ONE MILLION PESOS FROM THE REAL HACIENDA. BASARTE BASES MANY OF HIS ACCUSATIONS ON THE LETTERS OF PADRE BALTHASAR (OR BALTASAR) TO PADRE GENERAL RETZ WHICH STRONGLY INDICATE FRAUD WITHIN THE JESUIT HIEARCHY. (D. MILLER) (1978)


Cactusjumper also wrote:

Can I assume the source for the "sold for the silver content" is not.....a treasure hunter?

You can find the report in a treasure hunter's publication, I THINK, it is in Treasure Atlas, but if you care to, you can find it in newspaper archives. You reside close to Tucson or Phoenix, you have at your elbow a tremendous store of records and archives; my own 'library' is buried in the front of a 24 foot moving truck and will most likely remain there until June. I ran across it quite by accident, and believe it dates to the year 1900 in the Arizona Daily Citizen, but cannot swear to that. I know it was one of the newspapers NOT published today by the same name. The title is something like "miners profit by mining slag" and it caught my eye, not a lengthy piece.

"Throughout these mountains [surrounding the Santa Cruz Valley] are many shafts, tunnels, and dumps, some of them showing great age," testified cattleman Sabino Otero, one of the heirs to the oldest Spanish land grant in Arizona. "At Tumacácori there is a large slag dump, deposited there many years before my recollection, and in which large XXXXX* trees are growing, and have been since my earliest recollection," Otero continued. "I was informed by my uncle and also my father that ores were brought principally from the XXXXXXX* mountain and the Huebavi and from surrounding camps to Tumacácori and were treated there. " Sabino Otero, January 25, 1900
*Sorry had to delete a couple of words, but I am NOT posting everything I have, I value my friends ) Note this witness stated there WAS slag at Tumacacori as well, and the origins were from mines, not making lime nor burning bricks as in a kiln. "Huebavi" is another spelling of "Guevavi" as is "Guebabi".

As always, good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
First and foremost, allow me to express my gratitude for your indulgences, my friend! I am surprised and delighted to find there may in fact be documents pertaining to the Jesuits and the New World policies of mining and minerals, even though these may be negative in nature and strictly regional in dissemination, they are none the less very important and they give the modern historian valuable clues to the thoughts and ideas of the time.

One question that now needs to be answered is WHY were the Jesuits of the Northwestern part of the New World given special sets of instructions while the others did not? If this question can be answered with authority, then all of the difficult work is done.

Were the Jesuits in fact mining gold and silver and hoarding it? I find this difficult to believe and I feel there may be other reasons for these special precepts. It would seem to me that the priests in charge of the Jesuits were of the old Order, that is the prohibition against card playing, having women cook for them, etc, in addition to the precept pertaining to mines and mining. On the surface, this is how it seems and perhaps this is how they WANTED it to seem.

Another possibility would be that the Holy Fathers in control of the Jesuit missions in the Northwestern portion of the realm were in fact receiving missives from lay colonists about the Jesuits engaging in illegal or illicit mining, which may have, or may not have as basis in fact.

There are any number of assumptions one might draw from this evidence but only ONE actual conclusion. It’s this which we seek, my friend.

Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning gentlemen: We seem to be revolving around a few salient points, and are into knit picking.

A) Slag is produced by ANY smelting process, whether it is for precious metals, iron., or whatever, is the remains of the matrix or rock which originally hosted the metal.

The metal extracted from the original materiel which became slag, was an extremely small part of the mass. Perhaps a few ounces per ton of the original materiel. So the slag pile, in proportion to this, would tend to be large.

Smelting iron itself does not produce a large amount of discarded byproduct which can be called slag. Soo any working of Iron itself for tools etc., would not give a large pile of slag. especially in the operations of the 1500's - 1700's.


B) Regarding the problem with Precepts etc. in mining in the early days of the New world's exploration and exploitation by the Jesuit society, is rather like asking "does the CIA, the Military, the Secret Service etc etc. all have and work by the same rules as the civilian population.?

In each and everyone of these depts., there is a certain inner core which are not bound by the general rules and work. They work on different projects and under different rules than the others, and are generally kept separate from the regular employees or members. Obviously, their files etc., are not kept with the general ones, nor are ever made public..

This is exactly what happened to the Jesuits, and also tends to explain why any documents pertaining to extra , err ah. activity operations, are almost impossible to find. they will certainly never be found in The Vatican files etc.


C) The Jesuit society , like all of others in the Catholic hierarchy, believe that their doctine is the correct one or they would simply dissolve into a common basic faith. with no separation and no longer be called Jesuits..

If you believe that your version is the correct one , you would naturally wish to have it presented as the true or correct version. In fact, it would actually be YOUR DUTY to do so.

So, if in your duties in the new world, you are presented with marvelous mines just for your taking along with adequate labor, it is only human to realize that this was sent to you from Heaven to advance your particular belief in Rome as the true one.

Naturally you would start mining and sending the metal to Rome for the Societies benefit. Having huge sums of money available for gifts and bribes - yes the Clergy is known for having accepted bribes for actions or rulings in contrary to the basic canons, i.e. the papal Indulgences. for raising the needed funds to finish St Peters Cathedral - the readily available, and well known ability of the Jesuit society to have deeep pockets led to their rapid advance in Power in Rome, which was regraded unfavorably by the others.

To keep this advantage, and to by pass certain Royal orders, the operation would be kept secret as long as possible. One way would be separation of this shadowy Jesuit operation's personal from the Regular Priests of the Society, and of course from Society itself. This was very successfully done...

D) You quoted ->

"No one will work mines. this includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What better way to divert investigation away from actually mining with the shadw Jesuits? Let the world know that you do not allow and discourage mining.

E) Lamar you posted --->

WHY were the Jesuits of the Northwestern part of the New World given special sets of instructions while the others did not? If this question can be answered
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There were two different groups representng the KIng, Frankly, for some reason, I cannot recall them at the moment, but were someting like the Concil of the Indies, which included the Vicerey. they had different rules. The northen one allowed Jesuits to own mines, but "suggested" that they get rid of them asap.

It is recorded fact that many of the resident mining Enginers of the larger mines near Mexcio city were Jesuits?? this is in direct oppositon of the Precept.

History is full lof implied, declared as evident, and factual data. The history of the Jesuit 'Society in the new world is no different.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

"You have assumed correctly viz Rudo Ensayo, but wrongly in the version; not one from the Franciscans."

Originally, there was only one manuscript. "Present-day scholars are indebted both to a Franciscan friar, probably Manuel de la Vega, who was commissary general for the Indies in 1770, for gathering a number of manuscripts........." Father Nentvig's was one of them.

"To a witness who did not understand what had happened, but noticed a big spider (the innocent tarantula) that was at or close to the spot where the horse stumbled into the gopher hole, instantly made the connection that the tarantula must have caused the horrific wound to the horse."

So you believe that Father Nentvig.....was clueless as to what actually happened to the hapless horse?
Actually, there were other comments that create some smiles.

"Cactusjumper you continue to (virtually) demand absolute proof....".

You will need to bring a direct quote from one of my posts, where I have demanded anything. I have asked for any proof, rathere than stories from treasure hunters and writers of fiction. Should you come up with anything, I will be happy to give you the credit you deserve. In the meantime, I would like to continue the debate to see what I have missed in the last thirty-five years or so.

I expect I will continue to test/question each and every document, story/legend......etc. I would hope you will all do the same.

"Cactusjumper, you personally own a copy of our good father Polzer’s work, which contains the precepts,
; I am assuming this from your earlier posts? If you do, or have access to a copy, may I ask you to post here, the words of precept #17, concerning the writing of letters bound for fellow Jesuits?

I must admit, that I found this on another forum that I am a member of; which has a similar discussion running for some time now. This other forum has some references which some of our good friends here might find helpful, perhaps even sway their view. Want evidence of Amerindian labor being used by a Jesuit in a mine?:
http://historyhuntersinternational.org/index.php?topic=2321.msg9201#msg9201

This particular letter does not directly connect the mission as having ownership of the mine, but that a Jesuit man is using the Amerindians to work in HIS mine; as I have tried to point out before, we are not talking about the Jesuit Society as a whole, but as INDIVIDUALS who were members, that are very likely the source of the legends. To the Indios, it is not a certainty that they would have known that a mine being owned or operated by a Jesuit did not belong directly to the Jesuit Society. (the man being complained about in the letter was not the father but the person taking care/control of the temporal needs of the church, or we would likely not have even this admission.)

As you are searching for the "demand" information, please drag the portion of the post where I say that NO Jesuit ever mined or used Indians to mine. It's possible I said such a thing, but if I did, it was in error.
It's not something I believe......they were just men in the final analysis.

The debate, as I understand it, is: Did the Jesuits, as an order, practice mining in the New World? Did they take the fruits of that labor and horde a vast treasure which they eventually were forced to hide/bury somewhere. In our particular debate, that somewhere is the Superstition Mountains of Arizona? You should keep in mind, that the charges are that the Jesuit Order was involved in these activities and by extension the Vatican.

Did they also enslave the natives to work in those mines, causing or being a part of causing a number of bloody uprisings?

Did they build smelters adjacent to the mission church's to process the ore from those mines? As part of that last question.....Were they stupid men?

Can the offers of "proof" supporting such things be explained with simplicity and logic?

Do I believe that a few Jesuit priests may have mined or been involved in mining? Yes. Do I also believe that some of them may have molested the young boys who often accompanied, and slept with them? Yes, I do. Man by his nature is a base creature. Rather than dwell on the bad, I would rather celebrate the great good that he is also capable of.

Without the Jesuits, and other orders like them, I believe, there would not be a Native American alive today. They taught them the skills necessary to survive the arrival and colonization of the Europeans. As it was, many did not survive.

"Your dismissal of the statements of father Nentvig as "hypothetical" really underlines your position, which does not encourage any further effort to convince you of Jesuit mining activities. It is not my mission in life to convince you, or anyone in particular. For some reason, it is quite alright to make such statements as the gold and silver found in the Jesuit church, being used by Jesuits, was not their own, it belonged "to the church"; equally this argument will work for mines as well. If you are convinced the Jesuits, as a whole and each individually, were of such saintly nature as to preclude any sort of wrongdoing, I do wish you would enquire into the Gunpowder Plot in England or the St Bartholomew's Massacre."

What I said was: "The passage you quoted could be considered damning. It also could be considered hypothetical." That is hardly a "dismissal". It merely offers another view of the statements. You might want to consider how a court of law would consider two opposing testimonies.

I am a member of History Hunters, and have visited the Jesuit topic. There are firm believers there. Their proof is no different than what can be found in any treasure book or magazine, but it's one GREAT site.

In those days everyone had enemies. The more powerful you became as an individual or as an order, the more you were hated by those with less power. The Jesuits had many, many enemies. In a number of cases, they were defeated by those enemies. As a result, they had to maintain strict control over the priests in the field. Internal fighting could not be publicly disclosed.......not even intellectual disagreement. There were rules for every detail of their lives. That included buttons and hats. Anything less, for a powerful organization, invited your destruction.

Hopefully, my position is a little clearer now. If not, I welcome the questions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose,

"What better way to divert investigation away from actually mining with the shadw Jesuits? Let the world know that you do not allow and discourage mining."

Where does one learn about these "shadw Jesuits"?

Thank you....in advance.

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Just because a rule is written does not automatically condemn the entire group, or even a single member. This is akin to the State of Alabama passing a law that it is illegal to possess an alcohol still. Looking at this law doesn't make every single citizen of Alabama guilty of moonshining, nor does it even imply that anyone in Alabama is guilty.

Instead of using the what's written as an excuse to condemn someone in absentia and try and draw conclusions which as yet have no actual basis, we now need to examine the INTENT of the precepts as they applied to the Northwestern part of the New World colonies. Was the implied intent to actually halt the Jesuits from mining gold and silver, or was the intent meant to quell the accusations of the settlers that the Jesuits were mining? Or, was the intent based on the old fire-and-brimstone sort of evangelicism tha was common among Roman Catholic religious orders during this time? Or, was it a possible combination of the 3? Or, was it none of the above and there is another, hidden reason why these regional precepts were brought about?

Another area of research which would be of interest and also may provide valuable clues is the time frame and the length of time that the precepts were in force. From this we can ascertain in greater detail the secular, eccelestial and political climate of the times. Also, we may research the timespan which preceeded the Jesuits in the New World and see if the later Orders had any such precepts, or if the existing precepts applied to the later Orders as well.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning CJ, we are good friends, but at this point I have to slow down information on this particular subject. I fully realize that this leaves all similar statements as unverified or simply anecdotal, but unfortunately, because of the TAYOPA progress, it has to remain mine for a bit yet, patience.

In the final analysis, it is critical in my documentation and proof that I have Tayopa, But, if for some reason , the gov't decides against issuing the final permit, this information will remain with me, We both win or lose together.

Also, please remember, that everything and anything posted in here, as always, is visible on the net..through one of the search machines. Simply type in TAYOPA, Real deTayopa. Till Eulenspiegel etc.

Incidentally, regarding mining, perhaps I had better clear some thing up. Not ALL of the mined matrix or host rock was subjected to heat. only the final concentrate was.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

"One question that now needs to be answered is WHY were the Jesuits of the Northwestern part of the New World given special sets of instructions while the others did not? If this question can be answered with authority, then all of the difficult work is done."

Before I attempt to answer this question, I want to make it clear that unless I put information or comments in quotes, I am giving you my opinion. Those opinions are based on around 35 years of casual research into the history of Mexico, the Jesuits and the mission systems.

The evidence I have uncovered has led me away from a firm belief in "Jesuit Treasure's" to a disbelief of the stories, as a whole. That opinion has only solidified itself in the last ten years or so.
It was a slow and painful process. I wanted to believe.

The answer to your question would be, nearly, impossible to answer here. Like you, I have developed a great respect for Father Charles Polzer, Charlie to his friends, and I am sure, to his dogs as well.
One of the best ways to try and understand why the northwestern missions needed a "revised" set of rules and precepts, would be to purchase and study "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain". In that reading, pay close attention to Part 1 / Interpretations.

Originally, all of the missions were all governed by "The Code of 1610", which was approved by the Provincial of New Spain in 1611. That priest was Father Rodrigo de Cabredo. Those "instructions" became know as, Cabredo's rules. They remained in force for 52 years.

The reason for changing those rules had to do more with the solitude of the missionaries, the distance from any governing authority and expediency in solving important daily problems on a remote frontier.
Many of the rules of "The Code of 1610" were not possible to adhere to. "In 1662 , Father Visitor Hernando de Cabrero convened a new assembly of missionaries at the Jesuit College of Guadalajara. The missionaries had been complaining that the existing code was filled with too many unattainable rules. Moreover, the circumstances had changed so noticeably on the frontier, many rules were no longer applicable".

"Certainly the subsequent precepts of Provincials and Visitors indicated that the 1662 revision failed to solve the problems experienced under the 1610 code. The missionaries only had more rules to follow after 1662, and many of them were even less attainable than some in the 1610 code."

Taken on it's face, you can see some of the reasons why I believed in Jesuit mining. The problem is, that I am an inveterate reader. As such, I delved much deeper into the subject and learned, what I believe to be, the truth behind the superficial reading of the few, of many, facts.

In conclusion, the rules and precepts given to the northwestern missions, applied to all of the missions in New Spain.
The 1662 changes were precipitated by conditions on the northwestern frontier. Many of those rules and precepts were indicative of the total controll over every aspect of a priest's life, that was desired by the Catholic Church, and even more so by the Jesuit Order.

Please remember that a good deal of this post, like many, is pure opinion. As such, give it whatever weight you believe it deserves. My opinion is no better than any of yours.

One other thing Lamar,

Many of your posts, IMHO, indicate that you are consulting and getting advise from Jesuit or Catholic Priests. As such, there is a church bias that comes across in your writings. We all have a bias but if what I have just written is true, in fairness, you should disclose that fact.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
I will attempt to answer your question without turning this into a theological discussion. To answer your question fairly and frankly, no, I have no Church bias regarding this issue. I strongly feel that any and all information concerning the New World and the missionaries would now have no negative impact on the way the modern Roman Catholic Church is viewed, or if there would in fact be a negative impact, it would be miniscule and therefore would not be something which we should consider in our search for the truth. The truth is just that. The truth. It is my firm standing belief that the truth is always the best course of action in all things and no matter how bad the truth may seem at the time, to attempt to hide it, alter it, or bury it in any manner is always much worse than simply stating the truth from the very beginning.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Agave]

Gentlemen
I think you are all beating your heads against the wall to find some evidence that the Jesuits were up to their necks involved in mining precious metals. I in my humble
opinion don't believe that it exists. Yes, they had gold and silver ornaments in the
churches but that does not mean that the gold and silver was mined by the priests.
Stop and think about the reality of what you're talking about.
This IMHO is what happened and all it is is opinion, Joe.
The Churches were not just there by accident. They were in areas that had some
population via Indians, workers in the mines (whether it was Indians or Mexicans)
and other people be it ranchers, farmers, etc. Not even the Jesuits would put a Church in the middle of NOWHERE with no body to come and be saved.
The mines come first then the Churches. IMHO the mines added the most to the Church attendence. Look at the way the Churches were built (as the mining was established on each side of the Santa Cruz (Santa Maria) the Churches were added
where the necessary population was to be saved) from down in Mexico right up the
river to Tucson.
NOW, we have the Churches in place and they are no different than the Churches of
today. They do their jobs of saving and helping with education etc. etc. BUT they also
have their hand out for tithings in order to exist and raise money for the VATICAN.
NOW, the gold and silver comes from the OWNERS of the MINES that are of the Jesuit persuasion. I don't recall ANY Baptist Churches along the Santa Cruz in 16, 17,
1800's, but someone would probably argue that statement.
As far as the ovens go they were probably used for a number of things from baking
bread for Sunday Mass to melting what was needed to get by in a daily routine.
Not to mention ornaments for the Church to show that it was prosperous and needed to stay and not be closed down. Even the priests needed a job!!!!

Most Humbly

Agave