True Spelling

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Real de Tayopa!

Canoes and kayaks have successfully crossed the Atlantic, in fact the smallest boat to ever make the crossing intact was 5 feet 4 inches long! (Hugo Vihlen’s 5’4” boat Father’s Day, the smallest boat to have ever crossed the Atlantic.) So those claims that ancient people were incapable of crossing the seas are simply ridiculous, a modern conceit that follows a Medieval history in which Europeans really were afraid to try to cross open seas. If ancient people were truly incapable of crossing open seas, how then was Australia peopled, heck even the most remote real estate on Earth, Easter Island, was found to be already occupied by man when first discovered by Dutch seamen - and it is believed the "natives" colonized the island at least 1600 years ago! Are we to fall back on the old "land bridge" story again to explain this? Mankind has been using the seas as highways for thousands of years, except for the Dark Ages-Medieval period when men started to believe in the "flat Earth" idea and kept their ships in sight of land at all times. Even then, while Christians were busy burning witches etc the Arabs were sailing across the seas....

Apologies for drifting off-topic.
Oroblanco

 

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[lamar]

Dear group;
No, that argument won't work. It's already been proven that every like product thus far encountered between the Old World and the New World shows way too much variation between the strains to have come from the same regions at any time less than 30K years ago. Trust me, they've all been examined and researched to death. Archiologists, contrary to popular belief, delight in exploring ALL possibilities!
Archeology has progressed to the point where modern researchers now hope to uncover any and all bits of factual evidence which cannot be readily explained. That is, all eveidence which can't be proven as untrue. So far they've had zero success in trying to tie the Old World and New World communities together before the age of Columbus, with very limited success thus far being uncovered in Iceland with the Viking settlements there.
Cocaine is a rather recent addition to the drug list as well. It wasn't until humans started refining oil products that cocaine could be extracted from the coca leaves. The mummy which was discovered had traces of a substance which contained an alkaloid similiar in composition to modern cocaine, however it was not extracted from the coca leaf.

And tobacco is generally thought to have been solely from North America, however there are strains which were also found in South America as well as in ancient Persia, however those strains were far too bitter and strong to have been used for human consumption.

That Pedro Alvares Cabral discovered Brazil is no great revelation and he wasn't trying to sail around the Horn of Africa either. He was attempting to establish a trade route with India, in exactly the same manner thst Columbus was attempting. India had all of the valuable trade goods which Europe was hungry for, including spices, silk and textiles. He laid to off of the coast of Guinea to ride a storm out and then his fleet turned in a Southerly directionand sailed into Porto Seguro, Brazil on 25 April 1500. This happened some EIGHT YEARS after Columbus discovered the New World, however. He did eventually make it all of the way to India and managed to trade with the Indians. You have to hand it to him, he was very persistent.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Lamar and everyone,

Lamar wrote:

No, that argument won't work. It's already been proven that every like product thus far encountered between the Old World and the New World shows way too much variation between the strains to have come from the same regions at any time less than 30K years ago.

I respectfully disagree with you on this point amigo, and have researched the matter for years now. The Old World cotton found being cultivated by Amerindians was certainly not so distantly related as to require a 30,000 year span. That is only a single product mentioned, we have not even touched on several such as sweet potatoes.

Lamar also wrote:

So far they've had zero success in trying to tie the Old World and New World communities together before the age of Columbus, with very limited success thus far being uncovered in Iceland with the Viking settlements there.

I respectfully disagree with you on this point as well my friend, for archaeologists have indeed had some success in finding SOME evidence of cross-Atlantic and cross-Pacific contact taking place in ancient times. Are you familiar with the works of Prof. Mark McMenamin? I could suggest a couple of his books that detail the evidence if you like.

Lamar also wrote:

The mummy which was discovered had traces of a substance which contained an alkaloid similiar in composition to modern cocaine, however it was not extracted from the coca leaf.

Lamar I am not sure where you are getting your information, but this is mistaken. There is a great deal of material on this subject available online, including the astonishing discovery of American tobacco leaf inside the wrappings of an Egyptian mummy, namely Ramesses II a pharaoh no less. Here is one example:
http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/pharoahs.htm
(I have Dr Babalova's original article and it is also probably online somewhere if you are interested)

I am not sure why you have focused in on Cabral but his own report of the discovery was that it was accidental due to storms driving him across the Atlantic while trying to sail around the horn of Africa. Are you claiming that NO accidental crossings of the Atlantic (or Pacific) have occurred within the historical period?

Accidental discoveries have led to important historical events. For instance, a Norseman named Gunnbjorn was driven to Greenland in 876 AD by a storm, but did not bother to go ashore - however Eric the Red heard the story and later went to Greenland and is today honored with the discovery; another Norseman named Bjarni Herjulfsson was driven past Greenland (his intended target) by storms and sighted new lands to the west in 986 AD but again did not go ashore, but told the tale to a young man named Leif Eriksson who later went on to "discover" those lands ~ 1000 AD; the French captain Jean Cousin was driven across the Atlantic by violent storms while trying to sail south around Africa and spotted Brazil, but failed to go ashore so remains a footnote to history. About 42 Japanese and/or Chinese Junks were driven across the Pacific in the 1700s and 1800s by storms. Accidental crossings of the oceans occurs, believe it or not. Then consider that Diodorus Siculus and Aristotle both stated that the Carthaginians ACCIDENTLY discovered what can only be America after violent storms drove some of their ships west from Africa, where they were planting colonies.

I could go on here but do have to save a little for my book, however a short version is available if you are interested, your local library might have a copy, the title is "Underground,The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archaeology And Hidden History" and the editor is Preston Peet. (Amazon has it also)

http://www.amazon.com/Underground-D...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205555248&sr=8-1

My own contribution is titled "The Secret Land" but there are a number of alternative history theories by such authors as Erik von Daniken, Graham Hancock, Andrew Collins, Robert Shoch and others. Some of the ideas are "pretty far out" in my view, but a fascinating read.

Lamar mi amigo you see there is a rather delicate problem with the widely-accepted Isolation Theory version of history - for THERE MUST BE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND OF CONTACT for this theory to be true. A single item, DNA or linguistic tie then proves this theory false. If I may, I would suggest a few web sites that you might find interesting (that is if you are open to the idea that the Isolation Theory might possible be wrong):

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/outliers.html
http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/
http://www2.privatei.com/~bartjean/mainpage.htm
(especially this part of Farley's work, "The Coincidence of the Coins":
http://www2.privatei.com/~bartjean/chap11.htm

Before you find the problems with the supposed ancient Hebrew coins found in KY-Tenn area, I already researched this particular matter and they have been proven to be modern fakes, with the single exception of one example that was not examined by an expert, this one remains simply un-proven either way. The numerous ancient Roman coins found in the Americas, in MOST cases, can be dismissed as modern losses, but in the case of SOME ancient coins (Punic, Kyrenian, Thurium, Numidian specifically) there is reason to believe they were deposited in the Americas in ancient times.

I would also like to suggest a few books, if you are interested mi amigo Lamar, including one already mentioned above,
"In Plain Sight, Old World Records in Ancient America" by Gloria Farley,
"America BC" by Dr. Barry Fell
"Bronze Age America" also by Fell,
"Saga America" ditto

(I have my own problems with Farley's ideas, in particular the identification of an elephant with Egyptians, ignoring the more likely candidate - Punic visitors, and with Fell who seemed to have considerable interest in all things Celtic, again ignoring the more likely candidates, Phoenicians and Punic visitors, who would in all likelihood have made use of hired Celtic mercenaries as is recorded in history)

"Did the Phoenicians Discover America?" by Thomas C. Johnston (tough to find)
"Long Before Columbus, How the Ancients Discovered America" by Hans Holzer

This is just for starters, again also only if you are interested. Thank you for your interest amigo, and I close with my usual - good luck and good hunting to you (and everyone reading this), I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

YOU MEAN NO COFFEE? sniffff

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Ed T - I like the photos - my favorite is the 3rd one up from the bottom. Any chance you can get a couple more in focus? They sure do bring a smile to the face no matter what

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I think this is a little better.

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

I knew it, I knew it, Cactus is just another higrader hehehehehh pssst need a partner?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[pegleglooker]

hey all,
thought you guys might like these

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

You guys have been driving me crazy - photos of very interesting looking ore, very old Spanish maps - you sure know how to get an old treasure-hunter's heart a-thumpin!
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning ED: T A Y O P A is Correct despite my buddy "retarded" Capt bill's booboo.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI "BUGS Woggy" and Bill: Get bk here to discuss this with our newest, informed, gentleman "LilorphanAnnie". in the Mexican version",he has excellent data.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Everyone does realize that there were no Knights of the Temple of Soloman walking around in the New World, as there were no Jesuits mining gold and silver, right? Everyone who thinks otherwise are victims of a cruel hoax, perhaps the largest hoax in the 20th century.

That the Templars, or for that matter, the Jesuits are involved in a massive conspiracy was started in 1956 by a Frenchman named Pierre Plantard, who was a false pretender to the French crown. On July 20th, 1956, Plantard registered a fraternal organization with the French government which he titled 'The Priory of Sion'. He took the name Sion from a local feature located near his home, a hill close near the town of Annemasse, France.

In order for Plantard to become a false pretender to the French throne, he contrived a false lineage and pedigree to support his claim. Throughout the early to mid 1960s, Plantard, with the aid of others, planted a series of false docuements which they collectively called The Secret Files of Henri Lobineau. Also, around this same time period, Plantard began penning a collection of "Medieval manuscripts" which contained encrypted messages that referred to the Priory of Sion.

Plantard then claimed that these 'documents' had been found in 1891 by the Roman Catholic priest Bérenger Saunière, inside of a pillar during rennovations to the church at Rennes-le-Château. As a point of fact, Fr. Saunière never wrote nor mentioned to anyone of his supposed discovery and also as point in fact, the church did not undergo any renovations in 1891. Also, Fr. Saunière would be have remained completely unknown to the world if not for his name having been slandered by Plantard and others which followed.

That the medival documents were proven as fakes by historical scholars was almost immediate, as the Latin in the 'medieval documents' was a much more modern version of the Latin which was used during the Middle Ages. however, due to the relative obscurity and lack of publicity surrounding the documents, most of the historical society knew nothing of the these forgeries.

Plantard then contacted Gérard de Sède in 1967 to write a book titled L'or de Rennes (The gold of Rennes) based on the unpublished manuscripts and forged documents, in order to lend credence to the hoax that Plantard had discovered a link to vast, as yet undiscovered treasure. The book even included copies of the 'found' documents, of which the originals have never been found, naturally.

Existing written correspndence between Plantard, Sède and others involved in the scheme outline the entire episode as an out and out hoax and they conspired throughout the 1960s and into the early 1970s with advice to each other as to the best way to keep the hoax going.

In 1969 an English science fiction writer named Henry Lincoln read The Gold of Rennes and, not realizing the book was entirely fake, became intrigued by it and started his own research into the treasure which was supposedly located at Rennes. Lincoln even managed to convince officials at the BBC to film three episodes in a documentary series on the hoax. This led to the psuedohistorical documentary feature Dossiers Secrets at the French National Archives, which protrayed the documents as being hundreds of years old, but which were, in point of fact, all written by Plantard and others.

Still blissfully unaware that he was part of a Hoax, Lincoln, along with two other writers, Baigent and Leigh, wrote a non fictional book titles "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" in 1982. It was mostly from this book that the Templars, the Jesuits and other religious and fraternal organizations came under fire as all manner of conspirators.

The book Holy Blood, Holy Grail was also a major source in another, later non-fiction book titled The Da Vince Code written by David brown in 2003. This follows yet another book, written in 2006 by writers Lynn Pickett and Clive Prince titled The Templar Revelation.

In all of these books, a single thread runs through them and that is, there is not ONE SHRED OF FACTUAL EVIDENCE to support a single one of their fanciful and fantastic claims.

Anyone who believes this nonsense is blissfully ignorant of historical facts and instead of performing dilligent research into the realm in which they seek a better understanding of, they choose to believe, either in part, or in whole, the rantings of conspiracy theorists.

And so, the question is, why do people perpetuate these psuedo-historical 'facts' when an entire host of actual facts lies all about? The answer is MONEY! These theorists have discovered that there are a percentage of people in existence who will believe any flasehood, in wrapped in a neat enough package. It matters not to these conspiracy theorists who or what they hurt as long as they recieve the royalities from the books they've written or the movies they've filmed.

The supposed UFO crash at Roswell, New Mexico has spawned an entire cottage industry of business people willing to cash in on the gullibility of others, as is true with the lost Dutchman Mine. The aliens will never be uncovered, nor will their spacecraft, nor will the Lost Dutchman Mine ever be rediscovered, as Tayopa will never be rediscovered.

The reason for all of these things is quite simple, actually. It's because none of them never existed in the first place! Once logic and common sense takes hold, it becomes a rather short walk to reality. That Tayopa does not have geological features commonly associated with large deposits of either gold or silver should be a persons' red flag.

That the Society of Jesus, whose membership was quite large and is still quite large, have perpetuated a conspiracy spanning hundreds of years is simply absurd. The Jesuits did not steal minerals from the Crown of Spain, Portugal or the Vatican. Men became members of the Jesuits for reasons which may be difficult for some to grasp if not spiritual. The primary reason why men join the Jesuits is to seek spiritual enlightenment through interaction with others. It's not, nor was it ever for, the hopes of monetary gains.

The same statement may also be conclusively stated about the Templars, the Opus Dei Society, the Masons and others. That some ignorant members of our society refuse to believe in facts and instead choose to believe the most popular forms of tripe denotes a sad state of existence for the human race. While it's perfectly normal and healthy to dream and to ask questions, i's quite another matter to attempt to turn psuedo-history into factual history.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

Feeble. Heard it all before.

 

[lamar]

Dear springfield;
What is so feeble my friend? Would you please be so kind as to share with the rest of the group your illustrious observations?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good aftrenoon Lamar, my illustrious friend: You posted -->

Tayopa will never be rediscovered.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately it already has been, and is now titled.
**************************************************************************************
You also posted -->

it becomes a rather short walk to reality. That Tayopa does not have geological features commonly associated with large deposits of either gold or silver should be a persons' red flag.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

snicker, heheheh, yeah..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Dear springfield;
What is so feeble my friend? Would you please be so kind as to share with the rest of the group your illustrious observations?
Your friend;
LAMAR

Sure ... you're providing the rhetoric typical of an apologist for the accepted status quo. Your approach lies in defending dogma at the expense of all other conflicting opinions. I want the truth of matters regardless what that may be - I'll consider alternative points of view no matter how conflicting. In your case, most of your arguements seem to emerge from a rigid religious foundation, which is quite limiting for a truth-seeker IMHO. You're well-educated and I'm sure you'd love to debate your various points armed with a mountain of 'facts' that would overpower the other point of view. However, many people (myself certainly) don't accept 'facts' out of hand. I don't consider my observations illustrious at all - they merely seem obvious to me.

 

[lamar]

Dear springfield;
I have never stated that you should accept facts *out of hand* I merely am implying that you should NOT accept assumptions without the facts to back them up. What you do not seem to be able to grasp is the fact that there exists not a single shred of factual evidence to back up ANY of the substaniated claims pertaining to the involvement of the various religious societies within the Roman Catholic church, or the Church as a whole. Also included in my stance are the various fraternal organizations which have also been slandered and individuals who are completely innocent of their supposed deeds.

You've so eloquently noted that:

"In your case, most of your arguements seem to emerge from a rigid religious foundation, which is quite limiting for a truth-seeker IMHO."

My response to this statement is that nothing could be further from the truth my friend. I am in fact a truth seeker, whereas on the other hand you sadly seem to be an explanation-seeker.

You seem to have based your assumptions from a modernistic standpoint, as have so many others, when the truth of the matters is a horse of a different color. For example, if you seem to take the involvement of the Templars hording vast treasure troves, or Heaven forbid, the Holy Grail, at face value, then you are indeed quite miserably misinformed my friend.

The fault lies not in assumptions and generalities, rather the fault is firmly rooted in attempting to understand a culture which thrived and survived 1000 years ago from a position in the 2008. This is a very grave fault indeed, and until you are able to understand what the motivational factors of men during the Middle Ages were, you can not even begin to grasp the truth.

Most modern day people do not even take the time to try and understand how life must have been during the Middle Ages, and this fact is evidenced by the ignorance of sums of written manuscripts lying in dusty archives throughout Europe and the Middle East.

So, what were the prime driving factors of the knights and peasants during the Middle Ages? It was most definitely not fame and fortune, which most people today would naturally assume it to be as this is what most humans would like to achieve in our modern society.

During the Middle Ages, life was indeed was more simple and death hovered close by everyones' elbow. Death was a constant reminder of how frail and fragile life during the time period was, and as such most people and most especially the noblity took great pangs in preparation for an eternity of salvation.

Gold and silver were not nearly as covetous as they are in todays' times, mostly because during the Middle Ages every single item needed to be painstakingly produced by hand. A fine horse and suit of armor were in much higher demand than a treasure chest loaded with gold trinkets. With horse, sword and armor a man could attain something which all of the gold and silver in the world could not. Honor.

This was a prime motivational factor during the Middle ages and knights took great pangs to live life with their honor intact. So great was the desire to live an honorable life that the Middle Ages are soaked in the blood of those who wished to maintain their honor and reputations.

With honor came the dual rewards of eternal salvation and the hope for a better existence on Earth. If a man were honorable enough then he could perhaps marry into a family of power and position and thus improve not his lot, but the lots of the future generations of his line. This was extremely important to the men of the Middle Ages and it took precedence over all else.

Gold and silver was not widely circulated during the Middle Ages and as such, it was not commonly used in trading or bartering. The much more common trade items were grains, livestock and manufactured goods and these formed the basis of our modern stock markets. Gold and silver did not truly become popular until the Reformation, with the coming of the trade guilds and the need to establish a stable trade medium.

Therefore, looking at the Templars from their eyes, one can see that gold and silver played only a minor role in their organization and that their true strengths lay in their vast sprawling estates and the power they wielded within the Roman Catholic church. That they were wealthy is not in dispute, however, the actual amount of hard wealth which they controlled at any given time is.

That they wielded considerable influence in the Church is also not in dispute, for they did, however what most people fail to realize is that their power originated from the points of their lances and in their beliefs rather than from the contents of their coffers. Amassing monetary wealth was merely a by-product of their successes rather than being the total sum of those successes.

During the Middle Ages, the average life expectancy was somewhere at 38 years of age, therefore people were much more concerned about the state of their souls than most people are today. Their lives revolved around work and prayer, as was the case of the peasant class, or combat and prayer as was the case of the noble class. Most people truly thought their actions were in keeping with Gods' will, even though we look back at those same actions with a mixture of amusement, horror and disgust.

While its true that the Crusaders slaughtered non-Christians by the bushel basketfuls, what most people today fail to understand is the reasoning behind the slaughter. Christians did not butcher others for hope of monetary gains, for there was no money. The muslims and jews had precious little of actual value of their persons, yet the Christians slaughtered them anyway. The reason why is very difficult for us to fathom, but they did it in the hope of eternal salvation. They really believed that the killing of non-believers was the quickest path into Heaven.

And therein lies the quandry. People today simply refuse to accept the motives that drove the people of the Middle Ages and the early Reformation periods. To most modern day people, the one thing which MUST have driven those people is WEALTH!!! This is so far fromt he truth that it should not even be considered in discussions, yet it's all that everybody seems to think about.

We need to ask ourselves this question. What would a Jesuit priest, during the mid 1500s, do with a mountain of gold? The answer is, nothing. The Jesuits were well versed in the doctrines of that time and one of those was the vow of poverty. Unlike people today, the people during those times took their vows very seriously, right to the point of death. That this statement is a fact can be proven time and again by merely reading the manuscripts from the period in question.

Therefore, I now offer up the question, is what you are seeking the truth, or merely a plausible explanation for events which occurred some 500 plus years ago?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

... Therefore, I now offer up the question, is what you are seeking the truth, or merely a plausible explanation for events which occurred some 500 plus years ago?
Your friend;
LAMAR

Gosh, Lamar, you've buried my generic comments under a thick blanket of specific ideas, allegations and opinions that you yourself brought up earlier. In post #567 above I made no mention of the Knights Templar, the Society of Jesus, the Middle Ages, gold and silver, the Priory of Sion, Rennes-le-Château, etc. Am I interested in these subjects? Yes, indeed. You've supplied 'plausible explanations' for all the above, but, sorry, you seem a little too inflexible about your stance for my comfort level. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know all the answers, but you seem to feel you do. No offense, but you've closed the box, whereas IMO these topics are still wide open. Yes, I'm curious about what happened 500 years ago, but I'm also curious what happened 5,000 or 10,000 years ago - probably more so.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

"Yes, I'm curious about what happened 500 years ago, but I'm also curious what happened 5,000 or 10,000 years ago - probably more so."

Ah, shilt'iye (my friend), we think alike here.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Zephyr]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on some points.

The fault lies not in assumptions and generalities, rather the fault is firmly rooted in attempting to understand a culture which thrived and survived 1000 years ago from a position in the 2008. This is a very grave fault indeed, and until you are able to understand what the motivational factors of men during the Middle Ages were, you can not even begin to grasp the truth.

Unless you lived in those times, you'd only have a generalization of their motives for surviving (and thriving) back then. History books are only good up to a point (as too much is always left out, or will never be known), and can suffer from the biases of those who wrote them.

So, what were the prime driving factors of the knights and peasants during the Middle Ages? It was most definitely not fame and fortune, which most people today would naturally assume it to be as this is what most humans would like to achieve in our modern society.

Gold and silver were not nearly as covetous as they are in todays' times, mostly because during the Middle Ages every single item needed to be painstakingly produced by hand. A fine horse and suit of armor were in much higher demand than a treasure chest loaded with gold trinkets. With horse, sword and armor a man could attain something which all of the gold and silver in the world could not. Honor.

Poppycock. Gold and silver were as coveted back then as they are now. And with a horse, sword and armor, a man could attain FAME (which would be almost synonymous with "honor".) Not if you weren't landed though. Very rare that you hear of a peasant becoming a knight...

Gold and silver was not widely circulated during the Middle Ages and as such, it was not commonly used in trading or bartering. The much more common trade items were grains, livestock and manufactured goods and these formed the basis of our modern stock markets. Gold and silver did not truly become popular until the Reformation, with the coming of the trade guilds and the need to establish a stable trade medium.

Judging from the number of mints operating in the various city-states (such as Venice, Florence, Genova, and many, many other principalities throughout Europe, starting from before even the Black Death), and the sheer amounts of coinage they put out (from lowly billon backed with silver for use within their realms to standards of international trade such as the florin and ducat), I have to seriously disagree with you there.

And therein lies the quandry. People today simply refuse to accept the motives that drove the people of the Middle Ages and the early Reformation periods. To most modern day people, the one thing which MUST have driven those people is WEALTH!!! This is so far fromt he truth that it should not even be considered in discussions, yet it's all that everybody seems to think about.

Ah, well, wealth did (as still does) drive people, among other things. Those dusty archives you mention are replete with records of trade accounts, inventory, fines for criminal offenses, taxation, tithes to the Church, wills and bequests, salaries for officials, and so much more. People were not content to remain poor, as you imply, and would try to get ahead any way they could. (Things haven't changed over the millenia...) There was a LOT of money flowing around, even if some of it never reached the lowliest farmer eating dirt to survive.

But that's getting a bit off-topic....