True Spelling

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good Morning Lamar my esteemed friend:

First) I am not slandering the Jesuits in any way, nor do I intend to do so. But I do need to ask questions of the society in regards to their activities in "that time period". In no way does this indicate disrespect of the field Jesuit, but, may, of the hierarchy. If these questions shouldn't be asked, then something may be unsavory, sooo questions NEED to be asked. There is no need for secrecy in a legitimate Religious Society..

Second) Regarding the two young Jesuits (?), simply because they said so.

Third) Regarding Father Ed Panlinin , According to the Article, he has asked for a leave of "absence" to do this. And what data, other then what is presented for the public, can be presented? Suspended certainly does not mean ousted. He still remains in the ranks and owes allegiance to the Society..

Fourth) The most interesting part for me, was when my partial assoc. who was trained as a Jesuit, but never received the vows since He decided that the feminine counterpart of society was too attractive, managed an audience in Rome with the then no 2 Of the Jesuits. In this audience he bluntly asked about the plot to take the Americas away from Spain. He said the the Honorable Gentleman laughed , and said "yes, it is true, but we don't do such things anymore"? Before you ask, no, obviously I cannot prove this today. But, I have every reason to trust him., as I do you....

Fifth) I do check as well as I can with limited information available. I also question the reason why there are no lists available of active Jesuits to the public, what possible reason can there be?

http://goodjesuitbadjesuit.blogspot.com/2008/05/he-was-light-calvary-of-philippines.html

http://www.universalis.com/links.htm

Back to Tayopa, why do you actually believe that it is a unfounded legend, other than an oblique reference to Jesuit mining activities in the past which has raised your unnecessary protective instincts?

I would have had it opened by now and the records available except for the cancer and subsequent operations on my left leg and right shoulder / neck physically holding me back. I am not the same, especially for moving around in that kind country. Also past finances held me back, this is one reason for the delay in Official permission

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s About the coffee session ?

 

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[Oroblanco]

Greetings Lamar (and everyone, of course),
(Excellent posts amigos, many good points raised!)

Lamar, you have avoided answering my questions amigo, I presume you do not wish to address them? You also seem to have assumed some lack of research on the part of your fellow T-net members here, which is hardly accurate. Since you DID say that the origin of Tayopa was nearly identical with that of the Priory of Sion, but did not say WHO made up the fiction, nor WHEN, nor WHERE, your claim still holds no more weight than any other theory bereft of facts.

Lamar wrote:

I am afraid that I do not understand the fascination regarding the Jesuits. I also do not understand the preceived need to slander them.

You must know that a good part of the fascination is due to the pioneering efforts of the Jesuits in bringing the faith of Christianity to "wild" peoples throughout the southwest (and in the far north as well) their courage and faith combined with hard work is an example for any of us to emulate. I do not see why you keep perceiving our mere discussion as some attempt to slander the Society of Jesus, though apparently in your view it is "slander" to tie in the hardworking Jesuit pioneers with any kind of mining activity, even though this work would have benefited their charges. I would go so far as to say that it would have been doing the Amerindians a dis-service NOT to locate and develop mineral deposits in their respective areas, as the mines and associated productivity that must accompany it (raising food for the miners, providing timbers for the mines, etc) if only for the additional income the mines would generate for such poor peoples. We have covered much of this ground already, and have proof in the words of Jesuit fathers themselves to show that they were involved in mining, whether on a large scale or not is arguable, and used Amerindian labor in the mines. The true ownership of the mines might have been by the Church officially or by individuals, without records we can not say at this point. So can we move on with the discussion to other points, or do we need to go back over it again whether Jesuits were mining in the Americas?

I must ask you about the statements you made concerning secrecy etc. Are you keeping a major secret Lamar, one that forces you to live in "the dark" so to speak? I will not ask you to divulge the secret, but sometimes just being able to 'confess' to possessing a secret can help to lighten the psychological burden.

Lamar mentioned the practice of coinage being made into jewelry, and this too has a direct bearing on our discussion. It is an historical fact that some of the padres returning to Spain (or Europe) wore loads of heavy jewelry; (this is well attested in several sources) I personally own a piece of this jewelry, which includes a Spanish coin in it; the reason for this was that while silver and gold coins and bullion were taxable, JEWELRY was exempt. The heavy gold chains occasionally turned into a sort of death-trap, if the ship carrying the padres should have been so un-lucky as to get caught in a hurricane or run onto a reef, the weight of the chains then became like anchors to those struggling to swim for their lives.

Good luck and good hunting Lamar and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
To reply, the main points of my discussion thus far are not related to the IHS involved in mining exploitation efforts in the New World during the colonization period. Please, lets not confuse the facts at hand gentlemen. My main point, and in reality, my sole point of this discussion is the value, or rather the percieved value, of chasing legends, myths, half-truths, out and out lies, and all other forms of tall tales.

The Tayopa legend, and trust me, it IS naught but a legend, was unknown to the general public until a writer named J. Frank Dobie (who happens to be from my part of the woods, btw) collected various stories handed down over the years and condensed all of them into a believable treasure yarn. It was at that time the legend of Tayopa started gathering steam, until today, where the tale has been told and retold so many times, with each successive teller adding a bit or a pit of additional credible evidence, until people are absolutely convinced that the mine MUST exist, and all that is left for someone to find it.

Gentlemen, I am here to tell everyone that finding this particular mine may be a bit difficult as it never existed in the first place. If one were to disregard the misinformation available and instead concentrate solely on the facts which ARE available, then the Tayopa mine legend crumbles in the face of the hard evidence at hand.

In order to add a shred of credibility to the Tayopa legend, I challenge any and all forum members to offer ONE morsel of CREDIBLE historical data. That is all I ask to see. Only one tiny entry in some archive stating that the Tayopa mine actually existed and that will be enough to settle issue once and for all.

Unfortunately, nobody can provide this information as it does not exist. This information was not removed from the archives as it never existed in the first place. Many times during this debate, several members have attempted to use recovered treasures by others to exemplify their stance, however the treasures which have been recovered all share one common thread. They were ALL documented in the archives.

When Mel Fisher set out to find the Nuestra Senora de Atocha, he wasn't chasing a legend, he was searching for a VERY WELL documented ship wreck. From the archives he gleaned that the Atocha did in fact exist, and he not only knew the key points of the ship, he knew the names of the Captain and crew, the cargo mainfests, the departure points, etc. To sum up, he knew EVERYTHING before he weighed anchor.

He knew that the Spaniards had attempted salvage operations on the Atocha using native divers and he also knew what part of the treasure hoard had been reocovered. From that information he was able to discern how much treasure still remained on the floor of the ocean. Thus armed, he knew the general resting place of the Atocha and he knew that the bulk of the ships' treasure still lay strewn about the ocean floor.

So, to use Mel Fishers' success as an example is an invalid point. The fact of the matter still remains. Until there is some actual valid historical information uncovered in an archive somewhere, Tayopa shall remain a legend.

The Society of Jesus are again, nothing more than involuntary participants in this fraud. Again, there exists not a single shred of credible evidence which can tie the Jesuits into illegal mining in the New World, yet people persist in believing that the Jesuits incorporated native labor to wrest gold and silver from the bowels of the New World.

Once again, I would like to raise the point that even though the Jesuits themselves SUPPOSEDLY admitted to using Amerindian labor to mine in the New World, my initial question remains. Where is the proof? To entertain the notion for a moment that perhaps a modern day Jesuit did in fact state something such as this, my question would be "How in the world could he/she possibly know this for a fact?" To my knowledge, the Society of Jesus has never maintained an archive and if they did, then in fact only a very few would know of it's contents and to further drive home the point, even less would be willing to divulge this information in such an informal setting such as a conversation. As far as I am aware, the Society of Jesus only has access to the same information as you, me and everyone else.

Whenever I made a statement regarding the historical facts of a subject, I've always been thoughtful enough to include the actual reference material. This seems to be the exception rather than the norm as I have yet to read ANY historical documentation which could lend some bit of credence to the Tayopa legend.

And yes, coffee sounds wonderful, my friend. Please let me know what style of coffee you most prefer and I'll roast some beans.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Cubfan64]

To my knowledge, the Society of Jesus has never maintained an archive and if they did, then in fact only a very few would know of it's contents and to further drive home the point, even less would be willing to divulge this information in such an informal setting such as a conversation.

Doesn't this statement work as an argument for both sides? I mean, if the Jesuits didn't keep records, I can understand how you might argue that Tayopa is simply a made up legend - that there is no documented proof of anything in any Jesuit documents. However, couldn't an argument be made that there's quite a few legitimate reasons the Jesuits would not have wanted to document Tayopa themselves - thus they have no records of it, or if they do, nobody's talking?

At this point, I have no reason to disbelieve RDT - granted, he's just a name on a public forum, but then again, we all are. I have no vested interest in Tayopa whatsoever, but if RDT claims to have documents that prove it's existence and believes he knows where it is, I have no argument with that. I would think there would be many other sources (native american and/or mexican) that RDT has studied and has reason to believe points to evidence of Tayopa - just because you don't accept any of those sources and believe that they are all a result of legend, doesn't mean it's so.

Taking your Mel Fisher comments... who's to say that RDT hasn't followed those exact steps in his effort to find Tayopa and that he's at nearing that last point of actually opening it? Just because he chooses not to share whatever documentation he believes is real, doesn't mean it isn't.

I understand I'm looking at this from the view of a treasure hunter, but afterall, that's what this forum is all about I of course am biased in my views in that I'd love to see something like Tayopa discovered and proven to exist.
I'm also a realist and haven't been convinced that it's real either - I just toss the benefit of the doubt RDT's way at this point until proven differently.

Lamar - did you note this post by someone earlier? Do you have any comments regarding it?

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,150966.msg1181025.html#msg1181025

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote:

The Tayopa legend, and trust me, it IS naught but a legend, <snip>

If this is your stance, what possible harm can there be in anyone searching for what is 'naught but a legend'? I fail to see how this could be harmful. As for laying the origin at Dobie's feet, you have already said that he collected the ages-old tales, which proves that the story existed long before J. Frank Dobie ever sat down to write anything about it. (Actually I believe John Mitchell wrote about Tayopa before Dobie, by the way.)

Lamar also wrote:

Unfortunately, nobody can provide this information as it does not exist. This information was not removed from the archives as it never existed in the first place.

So no one can provide the information, since it does not exist? How could you know, whether there are records in Vatican archives or not? Have you been through the entire library? What about the Archive of the Indies? What about the individual mission churches? Your sweeping statement sure sounds convincing though, but without some kind of proof to back your statements, I do not believe anyone can say for certain exactly what records exist or do not exist.

Lamar also wrote:

The Society of Jesus are again, nothing more than involuntary participants in this fraud. Again, there exists not a single shred of credible evidence which can tie the Jesuits into illegal mining in the New World, yet people persist in believing that the Jesuits incorporated native labor to wrest gold and silver from the bowels of the New World.

So you have not absorbed the numerous posts we have bantered over the past months? I suppose we ought not be surprised. Just keep denying everything, and when our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa retrieves a vast treasure from his discoveries, we can use your statements as proof that the Society of Jesus has absolutely NO legal claim to anything he recovers.

Lamar also wrote:

And yes, coffee sounds wonderful, my friend. Please let me know what style of coffee you most prefer and I'll roast some beans.

I don't know if the invitation extends to me personally, but if so I will try to find some Kenya AA for the occasion - I would love to have a fireside chat and the opportunity to 'pick your mind'. Our differences of opinion have no bearing on friendship.

Cubfan wrote:

Taking your Mel Fisher comments... who's to say that RDT hasn't followed those exact steps in his effort to find Tayopa and that he's at nearing that last point of actually opening it?

A fair point amigo - and I am convinced that is exactly what RDT did. He did not simply depend on pure luck or go blindly trekking about in the barrancas. Much 'homework' on his part, which paid off.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

I am still waiting on my free copy of RDT's book...

Ed T

Screw the book, I'm waiting for an invitation to Mexico for a guided tour I'll be happy to pay for the book!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Lamar, welcome back: You posted -->

The Tayopa legend, and trust me, it IS naught but a legend, was unknown to the general public until a writer named J. Frank Dobie (who happens to be from my part of the woods, btw) collected various stories handed down over the years and condensed all of them into a believable treasure yarn. It was at that time the legend of Tayopa started gathering steam, until today, where the tale has been told and retold so many times, with each successive teller adding a bit or a pit of additional credible evidence, until people are absolutely convinced that the mine MUST exist, and all that is left for someone to find it
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

First, "unknown to the general public" is an intersting statement. This means that it existed long prior to Dobie, and there had to be a basis in the first place since legends do not grow out of thin air. Can you name me one?

Incidentally, it is well known in the sierras here by people that cannot even read, let alone know of any Dobie.

As with all legends, it can / will be be corrupted with the retelling, but this does not negate it being based upon fact.
************************************************************************************

You -->
In order to add a shred of credibility to the Tayopa legend, I challenge any and all forum members to offer ONE morsel of CREDIBLE historical data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you mean Jesuit data, that is nicely sealed in the confessional archives in Rome, which according to you, will never be released
*************************************************************************************
You -->
there exists not a single shred of credible evidence which can tie the Jesuits into "illegal mining" in the New World,.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since this would be an "illegal operation" then any records would be placed in a confessional status,. never to be opened.

May I ask why records are kept "never be opened"? What would be the purpose in the first place, why not simply destroy them?
**************************************************************************************

In a dual answer to you and my friend Cub, To clarify something that I have stated various times, I am NOT "looking" for Tayopa, I own it. I.E. I have found it" .

I have many reasons for not having had any activity. It has been sitting limbo ever since I developed cancer, which I cured. I am attempting to reactivate the permits and archaeological agreements with the Mexican gov. I now have sufficient capital to finish the job myself, when all legal paper work is done.
************************************************************************************** ORO, you posted -->

we can use your statements as proof that the Society of Jesus has absolutely NO legal claim to anything he recovers
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Unfortunately he has no legal status to speak for the Jesuit society .
**************************************************************************************

ED, you will have to wait until Tayopa is finally opened for the book. Patience, after all, I have some 50 years invested in it. heheh..

ORO, if we do have the bull session, I will help you attend. also I will show you the secret of why Tayopa could exist, be soo rich, and have been so elusive.

Don Jose de La mancha

 

[Old Dog]

I am still waiting on my free copy of RDT's book...

Ed T

Screw the book, I'm waiting for an invitation to Mexico for a guided tour I'll be happy to pay for the book!

DITTO !
But I want the author to sign it as well.
Especially if I have to go down there to get it

LOL
Thom

 

[RGINN]

Well, it's an old post, but I'll add something to the 'Spanish pronunciation' part of it. My wife is from Torreon, which is farther south in Mexico. She pronounces the 'll' sound as 'jha' not 'y'. You might say 'Ko-mo tay ya-muh' in northern Mexico, but farther south in the more Indian population you will here 'Ko-mo tay jha-muh'. (Como te llama) Since I learned from her, I will say 'Ah-mah-rr-i-jho', not 'Ah-mah-rr-i-yo'. I have heard that the pronounciation of the 'll' sound as 'jha' instead of 'y' comes from South America around Argentina. I can roll the r's too, and if you speak Spanish you can understand everyone from a Latin country, but you might exchange some funny looks.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon Rginn: sorry that I missed your post until today. Yes, you are correct on the variaitons..

Da mis saludos a su Senora mi amigo, y sigas con sus 'posts' por favor.

"Greeting to your wife my friend and keep posting please.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[JohnWhite]

DITTO !
But I want the author to sign it as well.
Especially if I have to go down there to get it

LOL
Thom

I’m sorry to say that none of us ever got Don Jose’s book and Tayopa still remains ever elusive…

One day someone will take over from where Don Jose left off but I doubt anyone will ever be able to fill his shoes…

So many adventurers have come and gone over the years…And IF I am around in another 15 years I will be amazed…

Ed T

 

[JohnWhite]

I'm looking for Tapioca.

I think I saw it in the Pudding Mountain Range, near Candy Ridge. They say it's hiding millions in chocolate gold coins...

Lol…I like Tapioca as well…🤣

But nothing beats pistachio…😂

I wonder how many from the old school are still around 😆

pistachio pudding images - Google Search

Ed T

 

[pokergodrules]

Tayopa is real, keep the dream alive.

 

[JohnWhite]

One can always dream of Tayopa…And I have dreamt of Tayopa today and I will dream of Topia tomorrow….Tomorrow just may be the day…

Ed T🫣

Ed T

 

[markmar]

One can always dream of Tayopa…And I have dreamt of Tayopa today and I will dream of Topia tomorrow….Tomorrow just may be the day…

Ed T🫣

Ed T

Ed, what would you do if you would find out tomorrow where Tayopa it's located?

 

[JohnWhite]

Ed, what would you do if you would find out tomorrow where Tayopa it's located?

Well Marius…I have already been to said location…The sad truth is that I don’t think I am willing to return there…It is a dangerous journey…

I am content in knowing that I have been there and I have done that…And I still have a very small amount of platinum bearing ore from there…

Oh well…Who knows how many more tomorrows I have left? Only time will tell Marius…

Ed T🙂

 

[JohnWhite]

What would you do Marius?

Better yet…What would any of you who read this thread do

Ed T

 

[markmar]

What would you do Marius?

Better yet…What would any of you who read this thread do

Ed T

Myself nothing, despite i know where the real de minas are. I'm not a miner, so the only thing I could do is to reveal the place to someone for a small share. There are only mines by now, because the treasures have been carried and deposited within the treasure of Santa Fe.

 

[JohnWhite]

So are you saying that Tayopa and Santa Fe are associated

Does Santa Fe contain mines as well or is Santa Fe just a treasure depository

Ed T

 

[markmar]

So are you saying that Tayopa and Santa Fe are associated

Does Santa Fe contain mines as well or is Santa Fe just a treasure depository

Ed T

Santa Fe it's a Jesuit treasure depository which is using three ancient gold mines. There are also few other ancient gold mines in the vicinity.